Episode #5: Kate Goodger

The Soul of Purpose: Embracing Curiosity, Overcoming Doubt, and Pursuing a Meaningful Life

Get ready to dive deep into the topic of purpose and meaning with the incredible Dr. Kate Goodger.

Dr. Kate Goodger is a renowned performance psychologist with an impressive track record, having worked with Team GB athletes and leading executives. Her expertise in helping individuals unlock their full potential makes her the perfect guest for The Excitable Soul Podcast. 

In this episode, we explore the connection between purpose, personal growth, and our impact on the environment. The discussion sheds light on the role everyday people, like you and me, can play in finding solutions to environmental challenges.

Throughout the episode, we gain valuable insights into building a life of purpose and meaning. Kate shares her personal journey of transitioning from a sports career to working in construction, and how she found renewed purpose and pride in her work. She emphasises the significance of reflection, resilience, and letting go of things that no longer serve us in our pursuit of purpose.

As a parent or caregiver, Kate reminds us of the fundamental lessons we can impart to our children, fostering their sense of purpose and connection to the world around them. We explore the power of discussing values and embracing curiosity and interest in shaping their path towards a purposeful life.

The conversation offers valuable insights into understanding the emotions associated with purpose and the need to acknowledge both positive and negative feelings. Kate addresses the challenges of balancing personal and professional responsibilities and the importance of self-care in any role we undertake.

Join us as we delve into the fascinating world of purpose and the incredible journey towards living a life aligned with our deepest values. 

Let's go!

Read the transcript here

James Glover [00:00:09]:

Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find Meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique Sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host, James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.

James Glover [00:00:44]:

So let's get going, shall we? Today's guest is doctor Kate Goodger. Formerly a PE and geography teacher, Kate is one of the most Experienced performance psychologist in Olympic sport in the UK, having worked with team GB's athletes and medalists at 7 Olympic games. She has a strong reputation as a high performance coach and facilitator with executives, leaders, and teams. Her clients have included Lego, Morgan Stanley, Pfizer, Asda, the MOD, Coca Cola, and Santander. She is a BPS chartered psychologist, has a PhD in athlete burnout, and as a published researcher, Kate's at her happiest and best when working with clients to create the moments They go with energy to move from thinking about it to doing something about it. She is a much sought after speaker on inclusion and diversity, and currently heads up human innovation and performance at the largest privately owned global construction company, Langowoc. Alrighty. So, Kate, welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast.

James Glover [00:01:54]:

Wonderful to have you here. How are you feeling?

Kate Goodger [00:01:59]:

I don't know if I have words for it. I am curious. I, I'm excited, but I'll be honest, you threw these questions at me for me to think about and contemplate, so I have absolutely no idea where the conversation's gonna go.

James Glover [00:02:18]:

Wonderful. I I love that, you know, the guests to the Exitable Soul podcast basically feel hijacked before we even start, that's always a good place to be. Right?

Kate Goodger [00:02:25]:

Hijack hostage somewhere in that territory, but yes, no.

James Glover [00:02:28]:

And so just before we started this, we were just discussing the fact But, Michael Parkinson died today. So we're almost kind of having this conversation in honor of him. I'm hoping to do him and his ability to entertain some level of justice.

Kate Goodger [00:02:44]:

And so, James, you are the Michael Parkinson for today. The the pressure is not on me. Just to be very clear to your listeners on that, and I think in true Papyri style, his ability and genius in the questions and sometimes the simplicity of the holding that space for people to tell his amazing stories and then his playfulness. So if you can do all of that Yeah. I mean, thanks. So

James Glover [00:03:07]:

No no pressure. Yeah. I really appreciate that. But, also, you have to recognize that he had some of the World's most gifted and talented people on his, on his show. So Al. That's wild luck at you too. Alright. Given the given the introduction that everybody's just heard, about you, Kate, there there will be, no stretch realizing that you are one of the modes were the one of the world's most gifted and talented individuals.

James Glover [00:03:35]:

And, actually, we're kind of we're not really focused on What you've done anyway were really just much more about who you are in this conversation. And, those that have started to become a bit regular in listening to us will know that We explore the kind of the journey journey of uncovering meaning and purpose and the kind of the understanding that then follows that and and look to see where people have kind of unleashed meaning and purpose in in their lives. And so, yeah, super excited to To kinda get into that with you, and so jump straight off into, can you can you just talk us through can you kind of take us back to maybe some more of the formative experiences in your life, and and just talk to us a little bit about, how they've shaped who you are in the world today.

Kate Goodger [00:04:23]:

So I wonder where I would start with that, and I think I have to start as, 1 of 6, a household of 6, and I'm a twin, Which is kinda cool, twin brother. So, yes, we're non identical. So I was the the baby by 8 minutes, but it was, You're, needless to say, a busy household. I I guess I haven't appreciated this until much later into becoming a psychologist and really understanding the impact Early life has on you, but I, lost my biological mom very early, and my dad remarried. And Not necessarily appreciating what that had done, but I think what it had created in the sense for me was The crushing of my ability and the good enough thing. So the good enough thing, which I'm sure lots of your listeners can recognize. I now see where that came from, and it's been something that has been Significant in my life throughout, and I'm sure later will come to the purpose and meaning part. But what was also Just I am so blessed for it, was meeting a stepmother that had compassion that was beyond limits, Care that was constant, a temperament which was firm.

Kate Goodger [00:05:37]:

You knew where you stood, but Incredibly giving, curious. If she were here now, she would say that she was none of those things. She grew up in the hall. Her sister was in the class with Ringo Starr, and she would talk about boys, parts of her life. But having had the experience of being raised by somebody like That she took on this incredible menagerie of a family, and her constancy Really shaped meaning for me because it was about the type of person she was, so who would I become in the world. And with that, Purely said the impact that she had on others. It's what's wonderful, at nearly age 50 is I have pals that still say, oh, boxing day at your house. It was awesome.

Kate Goodger [00:06:20]:

Yeah. Your mom would squeeze the entire nation, and she was 5 foot 3. And, you know, wasn't a heavy drinker, but get drunk, the bloke turned to the table. No no trouble. I was completely compelled. He was never drunk. So being able to see Stories, events, and experiences that people shared with me throughout my life of her, but having had that person. So I think early on, Losing a parent and then acquiring this new parent was was really formative.

Kate Goodger [00:06:48]:

And I think at that time, my my twin and I, because, The situation of my biological mom was kind of between 0 and 5. We had, challenges around speech and speech therapy. So I was with a speech therapist until I was 8. And again, that really contributed to you're not good enough. You know, who are you? And so I think lots of my early behaviors in the first Couple of decades were about me knowing I was enough and learning how to develop that. But my sense of purpose and meaning and values Has enabled me to really come to terms with that, deal with it head on. And, you know, some Ollie Aussie colleagues recently have have just Really said to me, I'm really good at backing myself. And I think for women in the world that we're in, it's hard to back yourself and not come across as Bitchy or bossy or over the top, how can you back yourself as a psychologist and still come across with that compassion, the empathy, the trust that people need?

James Glover [00:07:45]:

Kate, I think it would be really wonderful for, for the listeners to be able to benefit from your experience having done the work on yourself. You know, how do you articulate a sense of purpose? How have you made sense of meaning in your life? What does what does that look like for you?

Kate Goodger [00:08:05]:

I think I probably want to, take that in a couple of ways. I was just reading something this week. It was a quote I really liked which is it's not What happens to you is how you react to what happens to you. So I think around finding purpose and meaning, there there was It was loss and difficulty early in life which created immediate meaning around family, relationships, people. So very early on, those values were Instilled because of loss, but also just real richness and nourishment from my stepmom Kath, as I talked about Four. So I think there's parts around purpose and meaning for people's can be those life events and how you make sense of them for yourself and Identity and so on. And then I think at the same time as a family, we were very kind of sport crazy. My dad was a county cricketer.

Kate Goodger [00:08:56]:

He used to knock my milk Teeth out, hot bowling when I was a little kid at age 6. I clearly wasn't fast enough. As I said, you know, my twin and I had difficulties around Speech, and that that makes you think about voice in the world and feeling for a while like I suppose I didn't have 1 or didn't know how to, You physically kinda share it and him him being the same. So those experiences shaped. And then probably the combination of Within my family, my relationship with my brother immediately being drawn to the helper piece, that sparked Passion, joy, and reward is I touched on. Together with sport, when those 2 things came together, and I remember watching Dane Thompson At the Olympics and thinking I'm gonna be him one day, and then you go through your life and realize, actually, I'm not that good as an athlete. So I Kind of got to a good level in in certain sports, but I just didn't get any better, and that was crushing to have that. But there was still meaning for me, and and it is today.

Kate Goodger [00:09:56]:

When I See people that are just very good at what they do, and that's artists, that's performers, that's musicians. It's a really good Magician, it's somebody that tells a great joke, but, you know, children that are able to offer their own voice as my kids do today on what they think in the world. So I'm drawn to this helper because it's the reward in me and the satisfaction, but it's in the space of Performance and seeing what people can do. You know, we have this language around unleashing potential and unlocking talent, and they're really fancy words. But I think when someone's really cool at something, being able to, yeah, to give me opportunity to fly. So I think Those were influences. Now if I reflect back on my career, I didn't know this at the time, but the choices I made in the subjects I Coming into teaching before I came into psychology and then moving into sports psychology, what the heck? How did I move into that? And it won't be because I wanted to help these athletes be their daily Thompson, you know, and I look back. It must have been around that.

Kate Goodger [00:11:00]:

And As I've come through working with people that are under or put themselves in those spaces of pressure and expectation And identity crisis and self worth battles and all of those, you then get an even greater sense of meaning, which is, How do I help these people be in this space and be healthy, be well, perform brilliantly, but walk away with an Olympic medal and Brilliant in life as opposed to getting the medal and be completely wrecked and we're together, you're going through many incidents of that. So I think In asking that question, it it it's definitely the ability of being nearly 50 looking back on your life and saying those things This shaped me, but I am really aware with with meaning. It is this feeling, this energy, this reward, this nourishment you get from something you love doing. There's that part and there's absolutely this part around your curiosity, your interest, The things that I'd not really want to solve, I guess it's those 2 things that have brought me to this place of helping.

James Glover [00:12:05]:

You you touched on a point here, Kay, I think, is worth us probably exploring just out loud, which is this idea of being a helper and wanting to help, because, you know, you and I come across a lot of people where that feels like the underlying motivation is to want to help. And at one level, we can go, well, there's kind of a biological driver for that. We are we're we're tribes people. We want to be in community. We want to be connected with others and feel a sense of belonging. So helping other helping other people enables us to do that. So at one level, everybody wants the help, But then there's another level of this of what what does help really mean? And what was really beautiful there was your You just kind of seamlessly went I saw these people who were really good at stuff, but, taking on expectation, taking on pressure, Putting themself in really challenging situations, how do you help them in that environment? So it was almost a case of you being able to go Helping people, but then there's this space where I can really make a contribution to help people.

Kate Goodger [00:13:13]:

Goody. Let me disrupt That even further because you just sparked a thought in me, and at work we've been doing recently. And Some people will be familiar with, the drama triangle. So it's the helper, perpetrator, victim, and we've been spending some time looking at that recently. And I was introduced to that approach, myself, in my late twenties because what I was Trying to do it at that time, you know, just life experience. I was trying to outrun grief, and my grief was losing my dad at age 21 just very suddenly from a heart attack. One of those that you were just not gonna expect to finishing uni, and that happens. And I didn't have a maturity.

Kate Goodger [00:13:56]:

I just wasn't coping with it. So if I keep out running and get into crazy decisions, which I was an expert at that time, And I I started working with somebody to really understand what was going on for me and she was an exceptional practitioner. And she's talked about the drama triangle. The the reason I raised that is I think It's a great question to hold up this idea of helper because helper for me now, at this stage of life, is about being values led. If I wanted to summarize my purpose in life or what gives me meaning, greatest joy, why I'm here, Is to contribute, is to put more into the world than I take out. That's the pie I want to hold myself to account on, and I know that now, but when I was in my twenties and starting out as a psychologist, I wanted to help others. But a lot of that was about me, being a helper to solve my own stuff. So if I help you, I can avoid this other thing over here.

Kate Goodger [00:14:49]:

And I think it's important Maybe fearless is to to recognize they may be helpless themselves. Lots of us are. You know, the people pleasers, the the servants, they're the ones that get joy from Saying yes to everybody and then complaining about the fact that we're overloaded. You know, lots of us have those tendencies. So the helpful part, it's It is not two sides of the same coin. It's a double edged sword of of wanting to help and genuinely contribute when your values led and it's about the tribe and everything that you talk about then. And there's another part where we become a helper because we're avoiding other stuff when we're out running. So it is worth unpacking.

Kate Goodger [00:15:26]:

And it's only years later that I recognized the help part in me now is because it does nourish and satisfy me. So when we're thinking about meaning and purpose, It's not just the crusade out there, but let's get over ourselves. A big part of it is how it makes us feel. You know, we feel good. Makes us feel pretty good and not to be ashamed of that because if we can bring more of that to others, we have more in the world. So it's a really interesting point what you made around helper, I just wanted to separate that out. Cannot remember the original question you asked me,

James Glover [00:15:55]:

but I've gone off on that. And let's forget it and move on because, you know, the way where you've just taken us is is is way better. And, and, again, I just wanna pick up on something that you're really emphasizing here about the feeling associated with this. And, you know, part of Doing this work and part of bringing this podcast out for the, you know, 7 people that may listen to it and 6 of them being in my family Is, you know, just acknowledging that the way in which we experience the world is through feeling. And when you, when you are Feeling purposeful, it's an it's an internal experience, and it's powerful because it doesn't necessarily have just some kind of cognitive clarity. It has an emotional conviction and compulsion associated with it. And I think for people to feel like it's okay to connect in with that part of yourself and be be guided by intuition because those feelings are A whole ton of data that actually is really important to you, and so go with it. So I love the way that you you kind of you were talking about the feeling impact.

James Glover [00:17:01]:

Let's be honest. You help somebody feels pretty good. And and actually, it feels pretty good for them too. So there's reciprocity in it. And the research is brilliant, isn't it? That actually even if you just witness Somebody helping somebody else, it makes you feel good. So there's like, you know, it's just a world of positivity if you just go with that kind of intuition and that feeling sensation.

Kate Goodger [00:17:22]:

Can I add a build to that because I think there is that, trailing our cup up and we are in a time when we're talking about Mental health and, yes, I always am biased sorry, I am irritated by the bias of mental health is what we talk about when we don't talk about mental Wellness? But I think in what you're highlighting here that some of the the best word I can use is crushing experiences for people is when They see their purpose or their sense of meaning stomped on. And, you know, recently just trying to understand more about climate and sustainability and That world and there are new concepts like eco anxiety and, like, my kids haven't got that yet, but they're starting to talk about things like that. And it's the realization for for some people. It's a thing they see, a part of a habitat or environment being destroyed, they feel something about that. And it isn't just about the tragedy of The loss of the natural world, but actually it links to their sense of purpose in the world. So I think it's, you know, both of those things are Energising and we can mobilise and it's a feeling we can absolutely lean into because you'll be healthier for it. And at the same time recognising Some days when we just feel frustrated, when we feel disappointment, we feel agitation, some of those emotions that zap us, It's because we're either not living into our purpose or our sense of meaning or they're conflicted. For us, the classic we come across is the professional parent Or the athlete that's apparently, you know, that dichotomy of living.

Kate Goodger [00:18:58]:

They have shifted with COVID for sure but we all have those competing demands in our lives and the intersection for us sometimes is where that purpose It's it's compromised, that meaning. So it's equally powerful emotions of picking the opposite way, I guess, is what I'm adding in.

James Glover [00:19:13]:

Yeah. No. Yeah. And I think that perspective is important for people to hold without any level of judgment, isn't it? Which, you know, often we can go good experience, bad experience, And, and the frame is, it's a subtle shift in terms of positive and negative as in, Negativity doesn't necessarily mean bad. It means, oh, I really need to pay attention to that because there's something in it, and take out the judgment because the judgment is what really causes the damage. So, yeah, I think you're you're absolutely right to bring us to that.

Kate Goodger [00:19:47]:

The game changer for me, I think, in what you've just talked about, that positive negative and we talk self reflection Action and introspection, blah, blah, blah. I just love simplifying it down to the the the immense joy for me around knowing what Gives me purpose and meaning in life is it just helps me to learn. Don't go over there because that's a bit shitty and not on a bit well good. So then do that. So you Reach the age of 50, and my supervisor talks about your f u 50, so apologies. I know it's offended by that. It's a technical psychological term. But you just reach an age in life when you go, you know what? I'm not going to worry about pleasing everybody all the time, being present all the time, doing all of those things because that doesn't make me feel great and then I'm not Great around others.

Kate Goodger [00:20:30]:

So I think purpose and meaning it's about energy and contribution and all of those things, but it's a wonderful learning tool because it gives you that reference point of, Do I need to do something about that? Do I need to accept and move on because it's not somewhere I'm going to place energies? And as I go into 20:50 and I look Down the track of the rest of my life, I'm excited by that because purpose and meaning give me opportunity to learn. And I'm, you know, it's one of my greatest gifts in life is that I love learning.

James Glover [00:20:58]:

Yeah. Amazing. I mean and I think what you're really, kind of moving us to already is is this kind of shift from just kind of uncovering to understanding, purpose and and how we can access it and utilize it. And I think there's there's something that you just start to speak to there, which Might it kinda peaked my curiosity immediately, which is this idea of kind of decision making, what you want to pay attention to and not, the f u fifties. And Believe me, some of our other guests would have just gone straight in with the swear word and then said, hey, is it alright to swear on this podcast afterwards? So we've got some, you know, e rated podcasts coming up. But there there's something here for me that I have, always, Really had to work hard on and certainly had to support others to work hard on, which is, you know, becoming aware of what you just need to let go of. And the use of purpose in order to be able to say, I just I've just gotta let go of that because It it's not serving me in any way. There is no learning associated with that.

James Glover [00:22:01]:

There is just, you know, heaviness and, demotivation and, you know, burnout associated with it. How, how do you utilize, Purpose to really help you let go of things. And what's the experience of that? Give us the internal Process that happens.

Kate Goodger [00:22:27]:

So many parts in that question, working which was to draw on that. I think

James Glover [00:22:33]:

This is this is what happens when you actually interview a psychologist who deeply understands more about everything than you do. They they take what you're saying going, alright. There are 8 parts to that. We could pick at all of them.

Kate Goodger [00:22:46]:

It's the richest of this question, James. It's wonderfully rich. I What it made me do is I I used to be a lecturer in a in a field college, and there's a group of students that would always joke, yeah, it's all about me. It's all about me. When when somebody we kinda make a comment, and they would take their reply to each other. And then, 1 guy that did got a lot. They bought my t shirt, and my t shirt just had 3 words in them. I think, ironically, these 3 words have become a really important technique for me in terms of being able to Apply purpose helpfully, which is get over myself.

Kate Goodger [00:23:20]:

And those things are letting go. And sometimes, It is getting over yourself because it's you that is the blocker. It's you that's creating the problem. You are in a victim mode, and you haven't appreciated it. So I think the kind of internal process for for me, probably Steve Peters and working with him as my mentor for 10 years, what Steve taught me very powerfully, was a a real resource of purpose Day to day is that ability for it to give you perspective because we lose perspective within seconds. You know, we've come out of I mean, it's really cool. Now that that was really great, and then you check-in now, and as soon as you see that person, bang, you've lost perspective. And working with athletes, we spent a lot of time with Steve focusing on how do you give people perspective, what really matters, what's important.

Kate Goodger [00:24:10]:

Don't sweat. There's more stuff that come for radiology. So I think I have thought about and learned to use through my work Purpose is a tool to provide perspective. But to your point around letting go, I think the first thing is for people to know That's the thing for you to do, so get over myself. It starts with you. And we say that a lot in our work, but letting go of stuff starts with you because is it serving me? If it's not, then you've got a choice, and a choice sits with you. So I think mechanisms, tools that you're Asking me to articulate it would be that cornerstone of get over myself, which means what's starting with me. And What it basically means is you can't be passive in this.

Kate Goodger [00:24:52]:

You don't make a choice. Either you're in it or you're not. Don't think about the rest of the world. When you know that and when you know it's on you and you feel empowered enough to be able to do that, it is game changing. And I guess I'm saying when you feel those things and if it's possible because sometimes people are in incredibly hard Circumstances, it's hard to see those options out of here. But I think for each person, there isn't a recipe or a formula In terms of how purpose or meaning may serve you, I was very fortunately taught that purpose and meaning and significance and contribution can help You're getting perspective when you're performing on something and you agree you gotta focus and you gotta get the job done. That's incredibly helpful. As a parent now and more generally in my life, when I think about purpose and meaning and and operationalizing and making a living, It's probably much more around my sense of contribution again.

Kate Goodger [00:25:46]:

So am I living to my values? So I think Now I still use Getafe myself, and you know that in our work together, James, but it's probably more driven through knowing My values and through that simply accountability. I'm trying to hold myself to account, which is really freaking difficult, really annoying. I'm not Very good at it. But when I can hold myself to account, that's when you let go of stuff.

James Glover [00:26:12]:

Yeah. And you used the word, you used the word kind of empowered. And, and that for me feels really critical here in in in acknowledging that there is a choice. Like, almost the most difficult thing is going, I do have a choice here. Even though at some level, I may feel like I don't, I really actually do. And there is a level of of empowerment that comes with that. But the other part of it is permission. Giving yourself permission.

James Glover [00:26:41]:

Being seen to give permission rather than feeling like you have to seek permission To be able to get over yourself or to be able to, go in a direction that feels important for you to go in.

Kate Goodger [00:26:53]:

Yeah. I I think as we were kind of unpicking this, I would keep bringing people back to, you know, with Psychologists talking here, and we we're really good at complicating things and over intellectualizing. And, you know, great advice she gave me once was simply, k, do less, And simple, simple, simple, simple. And I've really taken what forward. So when I playfully say get over myself, I mean, keep it that blink and simple Because I'm holding you know, what does get over myself if if we pick the file that sits underneath that, what does it tell us? It's about Choice, it's about accountability. It's about it's on me first. And it's the one of the most powerful things, nourishing things that you can have as a person is recognizing that. What's difficult is when we're overwhelmed by stuff, we don't see that about ourselves, and it becomes about the rest of the world.

Kate Goodger [00:27:42]:

We don't know our way through this. So I think as we're I'm picking these things together. I just wanna, I guess, remind people about simplifying because that's, you know, the part that we've had Access to and be reminded of and been nudged, and you've had clients not turn up as a consequence when we over complicate. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. What resonates? What's meaningful? Go try it. The simplicity and all that we're talking about, although it's deep, it's intense, It's difficult. It's hard work.

Kate Goodger [00:28:12]:

Keep it simple. We can.

James Glover [00:28:14]:

Can you give an example, almost, of where that Level of awareness to having and owning a choice and, and that level of insight into, Actually, I have control here to just be able to get over myself. Kind of really came to the fore. Was there a moment where you were like, ah, yes. This is one of those times.

Kate Goodger [00:28:39]:

I think there's, there's really lots of examples of that.

James Glover [00:28:45]:

Yeah. I'm getting over myself all the time.

Kate Goodger [00:28:49]:

I I think Certainly, being married and having a a family with my husband, you know, there there are everyday things where I have to go for myself that he is not gonna Put the tea towel on the rack. There's there's everyday bits that you have to recognize. You know, my children are 11 and 12 going on 19 and 37. I was hoping to remind yourself about every day of the small wins in terms of getting over myself. And I think where I have really More in recent years benefited from getting over myself is going back to the thing I raised earlier around voice, that I work in a world now as a woman in construction, not being an engineer, not being a business person, coming from sport, In Olympics 4 Into, a global construction company bought, and I am really blessed that I work with the senior team. So I'm In amongst the most, intelligent, hardworking, challenging individuals because they are in the top team, and so how do we turn up in that space? And, Yeah. There will be lots of people listening to this that will have had moments where there's an imposter moment. So I'm not saying imposter syndrome because I we can do another podcast on that, but I mean, pass the moment of, can I do this? Should I be saying stuff here? Should I call things out? And what I know I'm good at in my work is being able to take Competing things then distill and say I think it's this, and and people tell me that's useful when I offer that.

Kate Goodger [00:30:21]:

So I think when I first Came across into this world, which is like, I'm sure, many other businesses, and you don't know how to get your voice into the room. And it's not a voice because I wanna say stuff So I'm the most intelligent person in the room. It's, again, because I want to contribute meaningfully. I can see something happening here It needs to be called out or I can see something happening here that's just waste of time and energy for people. So I think I have had to use that kind of get over myself in terms of doubting. Do I have credibility in this space? Is it my role to say these things? What will people think if I all of those things that affect us when we're kind of new into a domain, Having to work through that, and I think it was recognizing in my world of psychology I wasn't doing my job if I didn't get over myself. And I think sometimes that's incredibly powerful for people, whether it's your job as a parent, as a partner, as a friend, a sibling. Sometimes you're not doing your job, whatever you tell that to be, if you don't care of yourself.

Kate Goodger [00:31:27]:

And it's part of it. And I think that makes it Seem more rational, more logical, because, you know, effectively, what I'm really saying is if you don't get over yourself, you won't be able to contribute. And for me, that's way more powerful Worrying what somebody thinks about. If I feel like I'm not in value, that's my driver. Not because I need acceptance from others, but that's because That's why I think I'm here in the world. That's why I think I exist. It goes back to the purpose part.

James Glover [00:31:51]:

And I think it's probably important just for context for for everybody listening, just to know, I've been with Kate in boardrooms. I've been with Kate in at international competitions. And, when she speaks, people listen, ladies and gentlemen. And so this effort of being able to understand yourself and the contribution that you want to make And the choices that you have in how and where you make them have served you massively because you, are able to see, with a level of insight that other people in the room don't have. And so when you bring that, people are sat straight upright. What she also does, which is really annoying, is delivers it with playfulness and humility and, and, and people's response and reaction is, wow, I think I just got punched in the mouth because that was really straight to the point, but it felt really good. I don't know many people that could do that, Kate.

Kate Goodger [00:32:50]:

I think, listeners, that's a compliment. You'd be the judge on that, but thank you. Yeah, and I'm I shouldn't say I'm probably picking that example around voice because I think, So many of us just struggle around voice, not just from a confidence Peace, but actually we're just in such a noisy world. And, you know, there isn't I read a book last summer and it was wonderful on this epidemic of Not being listened to. And I think, again, the the purpose and meaning part and get over yourself. But what am I really I dig a little bit deeper on that. What am I really doing for myself is I'm listening to myself. I'm listening to myself through a lens of purpose and meaning Good.

Kate Goodger [00:33:39]:

It just helps me get rid of the other crap. I'm gonna focus on those things. Is it fitting into this pub, or is it about my family? Is it about contribution? Am I making a difference? If those things are hitting the mark, then I stay with this. If it's not doing those things so I think it you know, that's another way of thinking about The purpose and meaning provide perspective, but what can it give us day to day is actually an opportunity to really listen, really listen going on? It's not necessarily just the self talk, but emotionally, what's happening at this level? What am I feeling? That's what you would you're making that connection Helps us make sense of the internal mess that can be going on for us.

James Glover [00:34:16]:

Yeah. Brilliant. I love that that, it's It's not just a vehicle for creating perspective, but it's also a vehicle for just, self kindness to a degree. Am I listening to myself? Do I understand what I need? What does that what does that look like for you now when you think about how you continue to unleash purpose Going forward, like, where are the leaps of faith moments now? Or where have there been the leaps of faith moments that have enabled you to see that, if I really invest in this, More is possible than I ever thought.

Kate Goodger [00:34:52]:

As you asked that question, 2 things spring to mind Straight away. One was in the previous world of, sport and I think 2 Olympics in and not really having a clue what I was doing is the the truth of it. But there's 2 Olympics in. What became really apparent was the privilege You have been working with athletes, and that's not a sycophantic comment. That is here's people that are living this incredible Journey endeavor in their life to see how good they can be, and there's a story that sits around them and their family and their purpose, their meaning. And you get witness it, you get to be somebody sitting alongside. So I think that the leap of faith was from a Confronting the piece that I needed to be good at what I did in order to work with those people. I needed to be really good And why I did it? I couldn't just be a psychologist, I'm actually good at it.

Kate Goodger [00:35:48]:

And in that world it's pretty brutal because the athlete will sit there, he's a silver medalist and say to you, all right, so you're a new psychologist. So what exactly are you gonna do to help me win gold next year? And a a prep school didn't teach you how to answer that. And you're like, shit. I do not know. You can't ask the psychologist questions, Tell me how you feel about that question. So there was a leap of faith in terms of, Right. I need to get better at this, and I need to be good at what I do. So I wanted I did put myself through a process of Of relearning, reskilling myself, and that's when I began working with Steve Peters to really be put through my paces.

Kate Goodger [00:36:26]:

And bearing in mind, I'd done My qualifications, my training, I had my PhD, and Steve just shredded it because he gave me a different way of thinking about the world. And and purpose and meaning was central to how he created Experience of people. So the leap of faith was I need to be better. Not better, I need to be good at what I do. This is where I am, so the loop of faith was that gap. And then I think the the loop of faith that I am within currently Was coming into Langhawe in 2017 off the back of probably talking about purpose and meaning with them And coming into construction, and I I probably 2017, I hit this crisis. I didn't know What I was doing because I had worked in sport and I then worked in schools and corporations with Steve trying to help others. It was as I said before to be really good at the good stuff that they were good at.

Kate Goodger [00:37:22]:

And then I came into this construction environment, and suddenly, like, I've sold my soul. I'm getting paid really well, and I'm working for this team, and why am I really in here? And I knew it was to do with in construction, it is a, incredible environment in terms of The choice that they give you and I, so the ability to go to a hospital, to have school for our kids, you know, roads, the energy Crisis that we have, there there are options being generated through engineers, and, they are unsung heroes that we don't think about on a day to day basis. Now I'm acutely aware I didn't think I just thought about building science where x. And when you talk to these people about what they do and the pride they feel, I have found that in very few places within corporate life and only in certain parts of the sports I've worked with, which would probably sound surprising, But the level of pride they feel coming together as a team to complete something, which then hand over the the legacy. People Taking their my kids and their families, as you know, all over the country and saying I built that, mate. I built that. And what I realized In construction was now a renewed sense of purpose for me in 2 really specific ways and I measure myself, I guess, around this on top of the tank. One is that it's an industry which harms people, from the load perspective, the long hours, the lack The ability to talk about mental health and high incidence of mental health within it.

Kate Goodger [00:38:50]:

So it's an industry that's suffering. It's really outdated. It's standing in its own way. So how can you create an experience for those people day to day where it feels like they are valued, That they have meaning, that they have purpose. I'm driven by that. And then the 2nd part is is that construction right now is damaging the planet. It's the built environment. One of our worst carbon contributors.

Kate Goodger [00:39:13]:

And at the same time, I'd rather be in amongst it to find the solutions that we need because it won't be or as tech breaks through the suddenly there, it's gonna be everyday people and everyday engineers here that are looking at Greener concrete or creating infrastructure that is gonna cope with the the climate transition that we're in. So I think the leaps of faith For me now and the age that I'm at compared to, you know, 2008, 2008 was I needed get better at something and I held myself to account because the nature of the work that we're doing, the leap of faith here is more a combination of professional and Personal in a way in my life that I've never experienced before, that I am in a job where I am trying to help people every day to have a better experience, to be safe in an industry that is also trying to meet challenges, and I'm doing that because I want to help them But it's also because of my family and just the world that we're getting into. So I think I'm in the middle of a loop of faith. I've not landed yet. And it has uncomfortable moments to it because you've then got the realities of living with purpose and meaning when you've just got crap coming at you whether it's financial, Whether it's home life, it's all of those things. Purpose isn't you don't just get in. It's plain sailing. It's easy to follow.

Kate Goodger [00:40:28]:

That's not a real thing. So, yeah, that's why I'm in the middle of a leap of faith, I think.

James Glover [00:40:34]:

And that that acknowledgement of suffering comes when you're trying to live with with purpose. But at least you understand where the suffering has come from and why you're enduring it or why you're willing to endure it, is is always something that people, miss in terms of the power of purpose and what it can actually what, yeah, it can actually bring for us. There was, there's something there in in what you're sharing, Kate, which, you know, kind of really struck a chord with me in that, you talked But part of this leap of faith is professional and part of it is purpose is, is personal. And for me, that's again another one of the gifts of purpose is It it's not about the roles that we play. It sits beneath that. And and when you're able to connect it to it, when you're able to access it, It lives through all of the roles that we, that we play in our lives, which again can be quite liberating in that you're not trying to be purposeful in all of these different ways. Like, no. I'm I'm I'm clear and I'm connected to the thing that, feels most significant.

James Glover [00:41:35]:

And I understand how to focus it, How to align it, how to unleash it, and and where. I'm really interested in in in maybe you just being able to share because you, you know, you're on the unique position of somebody who has invested in doing the work for themself, but kind of lives and breathes this in how you work with others. Now what If you were speaking to our audience now and saying, this is where to start or, you know, if you really want to unleash purpose for yourself, based on my experience, these are the 1 or 2 things to pay attention to. What what would you be saying what would you be saying if you shot from the hip?

Kate Goodger [00:42:19]:

What I'd be saying, I I think, And this isn't rigged to audience. This is genuine. But, James' original question around Kinda connecting the dots and understanding past. I going back to when I I worked with the, A counsellor to deal with grief and I learned about the drama triangle at the same time. You know, there were lots of things that they Influenced me around and got me to kind of think about. So, they summarised it simply as past affects present. And that's really powerful for me in terms of take the time to sketch out and look at what roles have you played in life. And that that's helpful for me because the type of roles that you've been drawn to or you tend to play, there's probably some sense of purpose and contribution within those.

Kate Goodger [00:43:11]:

So I think Reflection and taking time to just stop and think about those past experiences that have shaped you or that you've been drawn to, they're really powerful. I think it's helpful if you are a parent, you know, to think about, you know, what is the fundamental lessons that I wanna teach my kids? I think that's a a gift that you have as a parent. But when you're Running around trying to finish the gruffalo, make sure they've got their school uniform at this time of year. Brace yourself for clerks and the experience of buying School shoes, you know, and all those, traumatic experiences that we have, it's hard to to really stop them. Who do I wanna be as a parent? So I think Being a parent or being a carer or somebody that has responsibility around someone else or something else, Lean into that. Where where do you have that responsibility which gives you a sense of contribution? I think that's valuable. And then, A a friend who does a a different type of podcast, I was listening to him this week, and he had stolen a question of somebody, so I'm gonna steal the question, but he stole off somebody else, and it was about kind of values when we struggled to talk about values and purpose. And their simple question, you know, was who's your hero? Who's been your hero, or heroes? And I think, again, just being able to describe who that person was, But then more particularly, what was it about that person? So, I've shared this with you before, and I did a keynote recently.

Kate Goodger [00:44:37]:

And I shared it, and Landed really well just because this person is awesome. And I I shared about my son who want you know, he's the next eco warrior. He wants to beat David Attenborough. And we heard on the radio recently, David Attenborough's on Radio 1. He broke Instagram because he'd never been on it before. And Greg James was interviewing him and saying, how come you never been on it, just never done it? People tend to write to me. Well, how does it work? So they would, well, if they send a stamped dress envelope, I'll write back to them. So my son hears this and that's it.

Kate Goodger [00:45:09]:

He's googling. He's trying to find sir David Attenborough's address and he finds it. And this is on a Friday night, on Saturday. He's posted his letter to you today. I'm thinking, I really hope you might hear back, and I'm just trying to work out how do I soften the blow. By Tuesday by the Tuesday, bear in mind, it's in the post on Saturday. So David would have got on Monday, or rather so, sir David would put on Monday. It's written back on Sunday, Tuesday.

Kate Goodger [00:45:34]:

So when I think about Hero, there's all these incredible things David Attenborough had done for our planet in terms of an educator, you know, so that is important in why family's learning education, that appeals to me. But that level of humility and care and regard for human for another human being, a young man who's ten Writing that to you is when you ask that question around heroes, it's about what that person does, how they live their lives that you like. So it's not because they've been massive accomplishment or them having a lead or and all those people. It's what what do you see them doing? What do you see them living out? And if If David Attenborough takes a letter from my 10 year old son on a Monday and he writes back on a Tuesday, they're all the hero criteria I need.

James Glover [00:46:20]:

What a what a wonderful place for us to, to finish our conversation, doctor Kate Goodyear. Thank you massively. I love that Reflection, ladies and gentlemen, connecting the dots. This idea of service. Where where are you making a contribution? Who to in your world? And and who's your hero and why? What is it about them and the way that they live their lives that, that connects deeply with you? Let's all take a little bit of time to think about those questions going forward. So thank you, Kate. Really wonderful to have you on the Excitable Soul podcast.

Kate Goodger [00:46:54]:

Thanks, James. Enjoyed it lots.

James Glover [00:46:56]:

Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the Excitable Soul podcast. If you are interested in Uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose. Come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitable soul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.