Episode #4: Jean Gomes
Embracing Purpose: The Transformative Power of Imagination & Emotion
Welcome back to another exciting episode of The Podcast! In today's episode, we have the pleasure of welcoming a very special guest, Jean Gomes. Jean is a New York Times bestselling author and a trusted advisor to CEOs and leaders.
Known for his expertise in neuroscience and experimental psychology, Jean's focus is on creating more human organisations and fostering well-being and leadership.
He has worked with major brands like Google, Nike, and Pfizer, and his insights have been shared at prestigious institutions like Oxford University.
During our conversation, we dive into the power of intuition, problem-solving, and uncovering meaning. We explore the importance of joining the dots and embracing divergent thinking in our fast-paced lives.
We explore the long-term implications of our decisions, particularly in areas like marriage and family dynamics. Jean highlights the significance of imagination in constructing future scenarios and harnessing positive emotions.
One of the most transformative moments in Jean's life came from a meeting with Tony Schwartz, founder of The Energy Project. Tony's observation about negative emotional spaces and our sense of value sparks a profound realisation for Jean. We dig deep into the concept of emotional conviction and its role in navigating uncertainty and making meaningful bets on the future.
We also explore the idea of suppressed values and the importance of well-being and optimism in leading a fulfilling life.
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Join us as we uncover the secrets to clarity, purpose, and understanding with the incredible Jean Gomes. This episode is packed with actionable insights and powerful storytelling that will leave you feeling inspired and ready to unleash your true potential.
Let's dive in!
Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find Meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique Sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host, James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:45]:
So let's get going, shall we? Today's guest is John Gomes. He is a New York Times best telling author and trusted adviser to CEOs and leaders. His research and practice centers on creating more human organizations, Harnessing the latest findings in neuroscience and experimental psychology. John and the team and his research based consultancy outside Work with a community of scientists to develop simple and powerful strategies to transform well-being, leadership, and organizational agility. John has lectured at the Said Business School, Oxford University, INSEAD's LEAP program, and the Henley Business School. He has worked extensively in elite sport and is the cohost of popular podcast, The Evolving Leader. His clients include many of the world's largest and most Successful organizations, Google, Nike, Conde Nast, eBay, Pfizer, Bank of England, Alexander McQueen, Stella McCartney, BMW, Warner Music, LTA, WTA, UK Sport, and Manchester City Football Club to name just a few. I'm very fortunate to count John As a mentor and friend, he's a powerful force for good in my life, and I know that we're all gonna get something from this conversation.
James Glover [00:02:06]:
Alright, John. Welcome to the Excitable Soul Podcast. To say I have had the strongest feelings of Anticipation and excitement about this conversation would be underplaying it. I really, really, really appreciate you coming on to to the podcast and talking to us about the experiences that have shaped who you are.
Jean Gomes [00:02:27]:
Well, it's a pleasure, James. You know, I I reciprocate. I'm very excited to have this conversation with you.
James Glover [00:02:34]:
Amazing. Those that have have been tuning in to, to the podcast, all 7 of them so far, have have started to get used to the kind of the format that we're creating here around, The the conversation around a sense of purpose and, people really sharing how they uncovered That's how they then started to really understand it and then unleash it and kinda bring it into the way in which they've, shaped their lives and their journeys ahead. And so I guess I'd like to just kinda dive straight in with with that first element of uncovering, purpose and where Meaning, the experiences really that started to shape meaning and significance in your life. I'm wondering if you could just maybe start with Sharing 1 or 2 of those moments that you know have truly shaped who you are in the world today.
Jean Gomes [00:03:27]:
It's a very deep, big question. I think, you know, if I look back over my life, there was definitely an origin story about something, which was my godfather, who was only alive until I was about 9, but I still carry The memory of of him in me, and he comes back to me unbitten all the time in terms of the unconditional love that he he He gave he was an incredibly, creative bon vievert, loved life, Was interested in everything, you know, every aspect of culture, old, modern, classic, and new, took me to some incredible things when I was just, you know, a child, really young child, and assumed that I was an adult and just shared it to me as if, you know, like, you know, I was he's talk and and
James Glover [00:04:23]:
so filter.
Jean Gomes [00:04:25]:
Yeah. Well, You know? Kind of he he did talk to me in my terms, but he didn't treat me like a child. He treated me as if I, you know, like I could understand things that, You know, quite sophisticated, and and, you know, I love that. So that that's one very powerful shaping force. I think the other is a sort of Intuition from an early age that there was no vocation. I just love everything. I love science. I love art.
Jean Gomes [00:04:54]:
I love music. I love physics. I love, you know, everything. There's everything that's Under the sun, and so that was quite frustrating at school, you know, when when the when the teachers say, what are you gonna do? Where are you gonna place your bets? And, you know, I was trying to do, sciences, English, and art at a level, And my English teacher, said you gotta make a choice, and I said, no, I'm not gonna make a choice. You know, it's crazy. And then my art teacher, who I was doing, sort of secretly in my an a level art. Almost got fired when they found out he was teaching me. I didn't wanna be compromised.
Jean Gomes [00:05:36]:
So there's been a strong kind of, a strong, kind of narrative in my life, and my the voice in my life is that No one discipline holds all the answers, and so this ability to kinda move backwards and forwards, to have a creative life, But also to not disregard any aspect of, you know, what what helps us to make sense of things. That's another very strong part of who I am.
James Glover [00:06:00]:
Yeah. And how how how have you seen that play out for you over time then? Because one I guess one of the great things about the power of being able to reflect back is is seeing how the dots connect. So how did you see that kind of flourish from those early experiences with your uncle into then, You know, education and so on and so forth into, you know, the roles that you play now in your life around leading business and and being a father and and husband, etcetera.
Jean Gomes [00:06:25]:
Mhmm. Well, I guess, you know, like, it's that tapping into the intuitive moments where you have those moments where you because something's true, and that's the kind of, like, the most rewarding part of my life, You know, when I get this little moment where, ah, that's why that's happening or that's the meaning of this, And I live for that. I live for that set sense of, of stuff, and and it comes in 2 forms. 1 is that you see a problem differently, and that's really exciting. And then when you get some sense of a of a solution, and, so joining the dots up is The most precious and most neglected, you know, kind of part of our lives, and then we are so rushing forward that we don't get a chance to kind of stand back and do that, have that divergent thought that allows us to to do it. So I think from an early age, I grew up in In the, you know, kind of late sixties and seventies, and life was different than it is now for children. I was bored a lot of the time. So daydreaming was a was a super skill.
Jean Gomes [00:07:40]:
You know, we did you know, there was any there was a there was no daytime television. So, you know, unless you wanted to watch cricket in the summer, you know, which is kinda, like, deadly, or, horseracing or something like that. So that wasn't a and and going out Playing sports, obviously, was a big part of it, but daydreaming, being bored, was something that, you know, I really actually look back on. So that was, that home, this this
James Glover [00:08:05]:
ability. Yeah. And I love the the the kind of the The immediate reaction to there is an intuit, there was an intuitive sense of something and investing in that intuition and seeing, Well, you know, what what was possible because of it or what came to fruition and this idea of truth. So talk us to a little a little bit more about the kind of moments that feel like truth. How do you how do you make sense of that?
Jean Gomes [00:08:31]:
Yeah. Well, Something feels true. You know, that it's not objective truth, obviously. You know? That that's a, you know, it's a very kind of comparative thing. But I think, you know, like when you in in my world, you know, you are so many great people coming out with so many different ways of looking at at business, Looking at psychology, looking at neuroscience, looking at economics, and so on, and they're just lenses, slices of reality. And the ability to to kind of take all of those things and keep on putting them into the into the blender, As it were, and see whether you come up with something else. That's that's kind of what what I do. I fill myself every day with different aspects of it.
Jean Gomes [00:09:17]:
So, you know, I might be reading or talking to economists or neuroscientists or business specialists, and it's that, you know, kind of like mix of things triangulating all the time. And then every so often you see, oh my goodness. Yeah. That's why that's happening. And, you know, I I don't wanna sound arrogant, but, you know, the the thing that really makes the greatest difference is to is to be in the struggle to get to a first principle. And it's very easy to to sit at that kind of, symptomatic level. When you when you force yourself to kind of ask, well, what's the most basic question that that is true in this situation, which, again, we don't give ourselves much time to do, that's when you get a real moments. That's you know? And you don't get many of them in your life, to be honest.
Jean Gomes [00:10:12]:
But, That's that that is, you know, like, the question I ask myself, which is, you know, it could be some variant of 5 whys or something like that. Like, really keep on going until you you can't go any deeper.
James Glover [00:10:26]:
And and so do you feel like there have, there have been Moments on this exploration where you kind of real once you'd seen something, once you'd understood that kind of that truth, that first principle, There there were just moments in your life where you realized, ah, so nothing is ever gonna be the same again now. I can't unsee that.
Jean Gomes [00:10:45]:
Yes. Yes. I mean, I think one one moment was, in my 1st kind of meeting with Tony Schwartz, who founded the energy project, who, you know, we worked together, and we set up the energy project globally, following following that that very productive time in my life, where he his observation around when we're pushed into a negative emotional space, The most fundamental thing that's happening there is that your sense of value is under threat, and every layer of interpretation you build around that is leading you away from reality. It's leading you away from what's really going on, what people are really thinking and so on. And so, like, that core emotion need to feel value in the eyes of people around you that you're dependent upon And all the consequences of that, that was that was really kind of, like, transformational because, a, it was very simple, b, it was very actionable, And it's something that you can keep mining. It's never gonna go you're never going to not experience, being triggered or having those Negative emotions, but actually in terms of thinking about it as a craft skill that you build, that that was definitely something that has changed my life, and I wish I hadn't yet known it when I was, you know, 15 or 16.
James Glover [00:12:07]:
Yeah. Well, I was I was gonna ask, like, one once you'd had that moment, When you started to then reflect back on experiences that had led you to that point, how were you then able to make sense of them? Can you share Can you share some of the moments that you were able to better make sense of because of that insight?
Jean Gomes [00:12:22]:
Yeah. Well, you know, I think I can make sense of it in a number of ways. 1 is About being a child with your parents. So I had a an incredible mother, who was the most loving and, you know, nurturing of people and intelligent and, you know, wonderful. I mean, she's the hero in my in my story. And when she died, a few years ago, it was devastating, both to me and my kids and so on. And I had a father who was, like, the opposite of that, who wasn't quite nurturing and, you know, was was was very challenging. And, you know, the the the flip side of that is that you have confidence, When you have a nurturing parent, but you also when you have a, a slightly less one, you you have a tendency to act out in certain situations where you're under threat where you might become defensive or judgmental yourself, and, you know, I had Probably in my sort of early career recognized that I needed to work on this, and I I found a, a therapist and, you know, in my twenties because I was, very early on, I was leading a business and I needed to make sure that I wasn't, you know, kind of bound by this thing, And so I I started working on it, but this revelation helped me to make sense of what was really going out and the the deepest kind of way in which you make sense of yourself in the world.
Jean Gomes [00:13:50]:
It was hidden hidden to me, in terms of that instinctive reaction. And then when when when you're in the throes of that, all of your intellectual capabilities are thrown into justifying it and making sense of it. Like, it's it's your fault. It's not my fault. Those are the 2 root causes of most of the problems we have in relationships or in being a
James Glover [00:14:12]:
leader. Yeah. And For me, one of the things that that feels really significant here is that kind of that shift now into almost understanding. So there was these kind of experiences that are really clear in that I love everything. Like, the I'm interested in everything. So it's not that the subject matter captures me. It's what What sits behind the subject matter or what can I explore within everything to find, you know, kind of the wonder or to find how it works or to find the partly, you know, shaped by, an influence in your life who wasn't even around for for very long, but the kind of the sheer mix of of love and kindness and energy and interest and curiosity and the kind of the provocation of all that, I guess, just kind of exploded into, You know, what might be possible in in world experience? Or, either way, to making choices or not making choices when asked To like, I'm not gonna narrow down here. I'm gonna stay really wide.
James Glover [00:15:11]:
The this the the kind of the transition into really, really, Being able to understand what is meaningful to you and, and utilize that, access that more kind of clearly. What what are the things that really define meaningfulness for you in your life now having being able to experience and see these things in that kind of, You know, uncovering, journey.
Jean Gomes [00:15:37]:
Yeah. That's a really good question. I think the it's The simplest way I would think about it and I I always think about things in visuals. You know? It was, like, immediately sort of mapping out a PowerPoint Slide of what this looks like, which is horrible, horrible tendency. Well, I think I think, you know, the first is is, like, being true to the yourself about who you are, and making sure that you're not, You know? Like, your your purpose is your purpose. It's not it's not somebody else's purpose, and your values are your values. They're not, you know, the values that you would like other people to to see. And I think a lot of people don't recognise that.
Jean Gomes [00:16:22]:
They see a list of values, and they go, Well, those are the those are the desirable ones for either being a parent or a leader and so on. They they select them, and then in the coaching conversations I've had with people and, you know, thrown this Like, back on myself, they go, yeah. You know, being a parent isn't the value that I really have. You know? I, You know, I love my kids, but, you know, I don't really, that's not my essence. That's not the the reason that, you know, I exist to be a parent. And that that brings with it a kind of a reality and also a, you know, a little bit of uncomfort, You know, discomfort in in that. So I I think the starting point is being really clear who you are, and I I you know, this wanting a creative life and wanting to make a difference and wanting to create impact is definitely, you know, somebody, you know, who I am. I wouldn't call myself an entrepreneur because I'm not trying to build some people would think of me like that because I've got, you know, I've had my own businesses over many years and sell businesses and scale them and solve, but that's not who I am.
Jean Gomes [00:17:28]:
I'm actually, a creative problem solver. That's the essence of who I am, and, hopefully, I bring some inspiration with that because I'm, you know, I'm passionate about it. And then the other thing, you know, in my in terms of, you know, who I am in terms of my values, you know, some of those are are really core to me In terms of almost, like, selfishness of wanting to be, An artist, you know, to actually understand what's going on and to be able to express it, and I know that is a suppressed value in me. You know, it's it's been one that, you know, has taken time for it to I've always kinda said, no, no, I've I've kinda brought creativity into business and so on, but, You know, like, I was in a band, and I wanted to write novels, and I wanted to paint and all these kind of things as a kid. And those things, Just as I went down the science route and became a, you know, a neuroscientist, I just left those things, because you can't do everything. So now where I'm at is, you know, values of creativity. I think the other most important value for me is around well-being because I know that when I sacrifice my well-being, everything else, falls apart, you know, I can't take care of other people if I'm not taking care of myself and that that is when you start to dislike oneself, and resent others and and so on. And then I think there is another one of optimism.
Jean Gomes [00:19:05]:
I believe in other people, until they disprove that in me. You know? I give trust. I I, I I share you know? I'm not quite as extreme in you as you in this respect, but I believe other people have got a lot more potential then then they often believe in themselves, and and when they do, amazing things can happen. And I also believe in playfulness as well. That's another value. You know? It's like like life is not just being serious. You know? It a lot of a lot of conversations are just so serious, and so, like, balance the you know? And so I am quite playful, and, you know, that has to be kept in track. You know? Sometimes, you know, Step into inappropriateness when things are serious.
James Glover [00:19:51]:
I mean, that could be a podcast conversation in John, where are the moments where you've overstepped the boundaries of playful and
Jean Gomes [00:19:57]:
Oh, well, I think you need to get 1 get several of my colleagues to come and tell you because it's like, John, you know but I think there's another another one, which I've forgotten now because it was just just as we're having that joke. But I'll come back to it. Yeah. It'll it'll emerge.
James Glover [00:20:11]:
Well, that that Yeah. And if and if it's okay, there's just there's just something I was very curious about when you were talking about the kind of the artist and the scientist, and you were talking about then The the kind of the nature of being a creative problem solver and this kind of sense of, being a suppressed Artist, and they're almost being a a kind of a selfishness to to that, to needing to access that. I I wonder if we could just stay with that for a second and come back to the to the values piece because that's something that a lot of people don't acknowledge in themselves. There are things that they want or things that they need that they try to suppress or minimize because of A a perception or an expectation of, selfishness. Yeah. Actually, it can be the thing that completely unleashes us. And And sense of purpose is about it's about liberation. It's about freedom.
James Glover [00:21:07]:
It's about, you know, what's what's possible. And, So how how have you managed that tension?
Jean Gomes [00:21:14]:
Well, it is a tension, and I think the first the first part of it is recognizing the need, and not, sort of I mean, I I it's not a want. I think that's, you know, an important thing. It's not a want. It's not something. It's a need, and a need in you is something that you need to express. And however you need to express it, you need Find a way of first acknowledging it and then going, how can I get what I need? Because if you cut out all the wants and focus on the needs first, we make those the priority, then the the, you know, the wants might, you know, manifest themselves just as a result of that. So If, for example, you have a need to express yourself physically, you know, playing sport or, Making things. You know? You really wanna be in your shed playing with bits of wood or whatever it is.
Jean Gomes [00:22:07]:
So I don't mean around that. That fills me with dread. But, you know, the the the idea of meeting those needs or the need for to to have deep connection with with loved ones and so on, It's really getting clear about those needs because when those needs are met, then the story of your life is governed by resentment, And you find ways of dealing with the resentment. You blame other people. You buy things to to fill the hole. You tell yourself stories about things that you want, that you don't want, and so on. So I think, you know, like, what what I I guess Living a really purposeful life is eliminating
James Glover [00:22:45]:
resentment. Yeah. Yeah. Well well, and the The process of, of almost reflection in being able to uncover that Feels like the the kind of the lever. It feels like the mechanism that people can access. You know, we're we're gonna have people listening, to this podcast who are immediately asking themselves the question right now. Like, how do you do that? How do you get to that? How do you see those things, acknowledge those things, Create a level of acceptance around those things. Like, how what's that process been like for you, John? How have you managed to do
Jean Gomes [00:23:19]:
that? Yeah. Well, I think What one is this sort of inner exploration and the divergent thinking, so going on a walk and actually getting myself into a state where I can, You know, I can have that question my with myself because this is the inner coach. You know? This is metacognition, the ability to think about your thinking and and give over to that and say, well, what do you actually need here? What do you really want? And any form of Journey into, you know, searching for your purpose. That's the only place it's gonna come from. You know? There are other people that can help you when you have Made the decision to want to actually do this. So I think that's the starting point. And as as your needs become more clear to you, And there are lots of them, you know, lots of different potential ones, ranging from, you know, taking care of yourself, feeling valued by other people, feeling connected, making a contribution, you know, to the world at large as a kind of nested set of these things, Then you you you have your moment of, you know, this is what I really need. Then the challenge is to operationalize it.
Jean Gomes [00:24:27]:
Like, how can you get what you need when everybody else wants what they need as well. So, like, a good and you and I have talked about this before. You know, one of the battlegrounds is free time. You So if you think about your weekend, you amble into your weekend going, ah, it's like I can relax now. Of course, you can't. Your family wants all of this stuff for you. My wife has got a to do list as long as your arm. Your kids want you to do this.
Jean Gomes [00:24:50]:
And, you know, you wanna get some rest. You wanna do something interesting. You wanna read a book. You want to Discover something. You wanna go somewhere. You wanna do some exercise. You know? What are all of those things? And you haven't made any plan. You just have this assumption that it's gonna somehow happen with everybody else.
Jean Gomes [00:25:06]:
So, you know, like, in very simple terms, you need to bargain and plan and sit around the table once a week and go like, so what are we gonna do this week? How does everybody get what they need? And when you have that conversation, I remember When we first introduced that concept into a client, you know, you know, 18, 19 years ago, I remember one of the directors of, of this company saying coming back to me 6 months later, he said, you've saved my marriage. We were about to get divorced, and we started doing these Family conferences, and all of a sudden, our weekends became joyous moments. We were literally in each other's throats. Kids and My my wife and I were each other's throats every weekend. We we hated being with each other, and now we love being with each other. That's such an Incredible story. I mean, literally, he was he had tears in his eyes when he was telling me this, and I was like, wow. This works.
Jean Gomes [00:26:00]:
You know? And And and one of one of the things that we always have to ask is, are we are we taking our own medicine?
James Glover [00:26:07]:
Yeah. And What feels, powerful to me is the the kind of the simplicity of the message here, want versus need, but the Genuine impact of being able to clarify the difference between those 2 things and take accountability for those 2 things. Because how often do people turn around to to each other and say, what do you need in this moment? What do you need in this weekend? What do you need full stop? This is what do you wanna do today? And there's just kind of there's an inherent bias or assumption based on answering a question of what do you want to do, versus actually just even considering what do I need takes you to a completely different mental place.
Jean Gomes [00:26:50]:
Yeah. I well, let's just dig into that for a moment because one of the you know, you asked how do you do that, and, What you have to recognize is that when you have, suppressed your needs and maybe do feel a degree of resentment even unconsciously, you have become numb. And when you're numb, You know, accessing your needs is really difficult because you've switched off the emotional responses to it. It's like addiction. You know? In any way, an addict can keep coping with the hangovers and the downs is to is to numb the emotional response associated with it. So you watch somebody who's just like a real, you know, hippie drinker, and they get up the next morning and you go, Cardo, have you not got a really bad headache? It's not because just physiologically they're dealing with it emotionally. They've switched off that feeling. So to tap into needs is hard when you're numb.
Jean Gomes [00:27:48]:
So you have to you have to unfreeze the emotional response in order to deal with Effectively is a form of addiction to not dealing with with that. And then wants are a way of feeding the numbness of, you know, Of coping with the numbness.
James Glover [00:28:05]:
Yeah. And I, again, what's creating real simplicity here is the understanding of The role of emotion in the difference between want and need and, what those 2 things are servicing. And, Almost just creating the kind of the permission in ourselves to feel stuff. Because the more that we're we're not judging what that emotional experience is like, We're just trying to have it and understand it. The more we're getting to the truth, as you said before, the kind of the sort this is almost a human functioning first principle. K. Do you know you're feeling something? And if and if you do, what is it? Because without that, everything else is skewed.
Jean Gomes [00:28:47]:
Well, that that was another kind of moment for me and then more recently, which built on this idea of of, you know, your emotions and and how they tap into the sense of Core value, which talking to neuroscientists like Lisa Feldman Barrett and Barrett and Mark Soms, where Mark actually said on a on a conversation that I had with him is that think about it like this: negative emotions are a signal that a need in you is not being met, And what that you know, unpacking that, it says a couple of things which are really important. So the first is that Negative emotions are valuable information. All emotions are valuable information that's kind of Mark Brackett's take and permission to feel, But negative emotions tell you something. They're not the messy noise that's getting in the way of you being logical. They are actually a form of very profound 1st principle information. They are telling you that a core need in you is not being met. Now that most Profound core need is that you're not valued in this situation or that you can't sustain yourself in this situation or you're not connected in this situation to somebody or something you care about, you'll be excluded, or that you don't have the information on which to base it. These are core needs.
Jean Gomes [00:30:04]:
So That that was a real moment for me, which is now we can read our emotions differently. So you can read them at 2 levels. 1 is needs, and the other is the granularity of the words that we use to describe the emotions, because most of us only use 4 or 5 words describe how we're feeling, and as a result, we don't know. I'm just angry. Be are you angry? Are you are you, Shame. Shame. Ashamed. Or are you embarrassed? Or are you guilty? You know? Anger is just inaccurate description for most of our feelings.
Jean Gomes [00:30:40]:
And when you when you understand what you're actually feeling, then you can really understand what need is not being met.
James Glover [00:30:48]:
Immediately, what, where I want to kinda bring this back to if we talk about this idea of sense of purpose, and I use that language really, intentionally because purpose is a feeling. Alright? So it's a sense of something. And, you talked before about the the kind of the journey. I asked you how and where you started with unrecognized and understanding these needs. And there's This kind of principle that you've been describing about value and feeling valued, and for me, one of the, the outcomes of a of a Of clarity around a sense of purpose is you know what's really meaningful to you. If you make a contribution to those things, Then you feel a sense of value and self worth because, it's significant, And and you're creating impact around it. So immediately, that that sense of self is, is is kind of heightened and reaffirmed. And I guess what I'm I'm I'm kind of I'm interested in from your perspective is, you know, where are the strongest influences on your sense of self worth In your life, where how have you identified those, and how do you continue to access
Jean Gomes [00:31:59]:
them? That's a very big question.
James Glover [00:32:03]:
You knew what you were getting into coming on this. I was only gonna hit you with the haymakers.
Jean Gomes [00:32:07]:
Oh, yeah. Well, I'm gonna have to have a lie down after this. I think the, the honest truth is is it's it's a very big question, and and there are lots of components to it. But I think, you know, the The point you were making earlier on around, you know, knowing who you are and where you can make a difference It's essentially kinda like a relationship with the world. That's what purpose, I think, is. In its essence, it's a different relationship between you and you're not alone. You are making a contribution, you know, by you know, you're you're either you're making a contribution, full stop, whether it's a good one or a bad You know, you're taking or you're giving, or you're not doing anything, and I think that, you know, it's just like who am I and what do I care about? That Feedback loop is that every time you contribute, you're getting something back. You're getting a sense of purpose, progress, affirmation.
Jean Gomes [00:33:07]:
So and and I don't think it's just I well, I don't know. I mean, it is tied up with ego. There's no question about it. You know? There's, You know? But, yeah, I think what you're trying to do is more clear sightedly not rely on other people's judgment and appraisals of it because otherwise, you're not gonna do the things. I mean, you know, like, I know that a lot of the things I've done in the past that have been groundbreaking have been met by lots of skepticism by other clients or my own team and so on, and and I've, you know, I don't believe I'm arrogant In that respect, I believe that I am searching for something I believe in, and when I when I have done the work And it's not my ego or my dream idea that's coming into play. It's actually well thought through. If it's Challenging the status quo, that's gonna create resistance, and I appreciate that and and acknowledge it, and it's sometimes painful. So there there is something in terms of delivering a purpose, which is it's not all pleasure.
Jean Gomes [00:34:11]:
You know? It's equal you know, taking a stoic Kind of position on this, you know, pleasure and pain are equal in measure when you live a purposeful life because you have to do a lot of things that other people don't like.
James Glover [00:34:25]:
Yeah. And and in the pain, actually, there is meaning to be found. And when when you see and find the meaning, actually, it makes The the pain bearable. And and it and let's be honest. True growth only comes when you go into the pain. If you stay in the comfort, you you you you're not moving on. There's no there's no kind of there's no learning. There's no adaptation.
James Glover [00:34:52]:
And so being able to embrace that, see it, and embrace it, and and use purpose as a mechanism for it, I think, Becomes a a vehicle for all of us to to kinda go into the unknown a little bit more readily, especially given we are living in a world of Absolute uncertainty. There there's something in being able to have that as a a way to create confidence and clarity.
Jean Gomes [00:35:15]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I agree. Totally.
James Glover [00:35:17]:
You also didn't answer my question by, by answering where you get where you get a
Jean Gomes [00:35:23]:
kind of a
James Glover [00:35:24]:
the influences on your sense of Self worth. So I'm not gonna allow you to dodge it, John, by giving me a really wonderfully articulated intellectual answer.
Jean Gomes [00:35:32]:
Okay. I get it in alright. I'll I'll try and summarize this in as succinctly as I can. So I think we've covered off the the 1st building block, which is, you know, really being clear about who I am, and this is the interior coach the interior monologue and making sure that, you know, there's no fundamental doubt in that. And if there is, then, you know, I'm I'm working on it. The second is that I am working on a problem I care about deeply. I'm I'm doing work that plays to that, And that you know, because I'm fortunate to be able to a large extent set my own agenda because I run my own business To actually do things I care about and to eliminate the things I don't doesn't mean that I have to you know? You know? I'm always doing, you know, Work that is, you know, easy or or whatever because there's no such thing. And then I suppose the other final piece of it is to Surround myself with people who I care about and who bring you know, care about what care about me, care about what I'm doing, care about what we're doing, and I care about them in equal measure.
Jean Gomes [00:36:41]:
I have no feelings of Resentment towards the people I work with. You know? That that that is the recipe, I think, in very simple terms.
James Glover [00:36:54]:
And I think just knowing you, John, that's that's true as much outside of your kind of professional environment as much as it is Inside your professional environment, there's a, you know, a real commitment to those that that you care about, but also there's a A kind of a need to boundary that it's not it's not it's not unequivocal for everybody. It's it's kind of focused and intentional. There is a reciprocity. You invest, I invest. As you said before, there's kind of a an optimism and a and a quickness to trust, but there has to be an investment too. Right?
Jean Gomes [00:37:25]:
Yeah. Well, it's an old adage but, you know, everything that's worth having in life is based on reciprocity. You can't Get respect or love or trust unless you give it, and you have to give it, you know, in small measure without condition. If it comes with con if it's conditional, then it's not what do you say it is?
James Glover [00:37:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. And so I I think there's just there's kind of a final part here that I want to explore mainly because I get really excited about it, which is the the kind of the leap of faith element of of what purpose enables. So you've talked a little bit already about, wanting to kind of disrupt the status quo, and that almost being something that feels like a intuitive, driver and motivator for you, but I'm wondering where else where does where else and how else does Purpose and clarity of purpose enable you to to take leaps of faith and really find out what's possible rather than what has been before.
Jean Gomes [00:38:30]:
I think there are 2 big components of this which are worth digging into. The first is imagination Because if you think about what negative emotions are for, they are really to save you from death. You know, they're there to protect you from all forms of environmental and social harm. Negative emotions, on the on the other hand, are there to allow you to build and create and form either relationships or new ideas, to create, value in uncertainty. So when you marry somebody, you feel positive about it, hopefully. Yeah.
James Glover [00:39:11]:
Things go everybody.
Jean Gomes [00:39:12]:
Basically, you
James Glover [00:39:13]:
should definitely be feeling positive to some degree.
Jean Gomes [00:39:15]:
Yeah. Well, on the basis that, you know, like, you're making a set of assumptions about the future that are based on very little information, you know, despite your best efforts, because you are going to be different versions of you in, you know, 2 to 3 increments, a year increments over the course of your life that, you know, you could never imagine, you know, physically, emotionally, mentally, You know, what's happening with families and so on, and very few people are start marriage by thinking about, well, what's it gonna be like to live with this person when they're 60? What will their families be doing? What will I be doing with them? And so, I mean, if you literally thought about that, you would have a very different life. You would really think differently, and very few of us have ever trained to do that. So imagination is one part of it, is the ability to harness positive emotions to construct, Future scenarios. And then the 2nd part of it, which is the other end of the spectrum, is is tapping into something you said earlier on, which is purpose is emotion, Which is definitely true because if you talk to neuroscientists like Robert Burton, their position on certainty is that it is not A logical process. It's an emotion. We have conviction about things that we feel positive about Because we've done the maths, we kind of go, well, that bit's certain, that bit's uncertain, that bit I have no idea, and so in order to be able to make bets on the future in a certain environment, You need emotional conviction. You need the the the marriage of what you know and what you don't know and then you need conviction, conviction part of it is purely emotional.
Jean Gomes [00:40:51]:
If you do not have emotional conviction, you will never do anything for the future. So purpose gives you it's an underpinning of emotional conviction combined with imagination That's where you have the leap of faith. You're constructing the invisible bridge to start walking out. You know, I believe because I can see it And I can feel this is gonna be safe. I can start to make the future real.
James Glover [00:41:18]:
You know, I, you just There's an image just popped into my head of of Indiana Jones of all things. Yes. I kind of I make sense of my life through movies. But The last crusade, by far the best of all of them, and and he's passing the test, isn't he, trying to get to the grail? And the last test is the leap of faith And, actually, just kind of stepping out into the unknown. And what was really beautiful about that scene for me is the angle that they shot it out purposefully showed kind of This this gap that he had to step into, but then as he stepped forward, they changed the angle of the camera and that, actually, there is a path there the whole time. You just couldn't see it until you'd taken the 1st step. And that feels just, really powerful in what you're describing, this kind of connection between Imagination and emotion and people trusting those 2 things because they are coming from a a real source of data and information. They are they can be trusted, And they can enable you to do more than than you thought possible.
James Glover [00:42:20]:
John, I just, I I just wanna say thank you very much for taking the time be in this conversation today. It's been it's been wonderful to explore this territory with you. And I I'm wondering if you just had kind of final words for people who are You're kind of wrestling with the concept of purpose or wrestling with how to start to and begin to access Their sense of purpose, what what would you say to them as kind of a final
Jean Gomes [00:42:45]:
note? I think it is a a liberating force in your life. I think it's worth it's a prize, because one of the things that, You know, we're not very good at is recognising our future self, you know, what what what we will become in the future. All the research shows that we are impossibly bad at imagining what we're gonna be like in the future. And one of the psychological Barriers to that is that we have a disconnection with our future self. We almost see it as a different person rather than who we are. And one of one of the pieces of research around this shows that, you know, the the the most continuous thing that joins us Between our younger and older self is our moral self, and our moral self is grounded in our purpose. It's grounded in our values and so on that When someone has dementia and somebody has, you know, like and you you can't see that in them, that's when they lose themselves. And, you know, peep peep people in marriages who, you know, see that change in their the minute that person loses their moral self, Their sense of purpose and identity, that's when that person has lost to them.
Jean Gomes [00:43:56]:
So if we take that as a concept and say, look. This is like the it's purposes, like, Sometimes feels like an aspirational thing that you need to do in order to, you know, be a better person. It's not. It's who you are already, and tapping into it will give you a a prize of a greater sense of connection about who you are in the world, And it's really worth nurturing.
James Glover [00:44:24]:
Amazing. John, thank you very much for being on the Excitable Soul podcast. I can't wait for everybody to to hear this conversation. Thank you for being with us.
Jean Gomes [00:44:32]:
It's a pleasure, James. Thank you so much for inviting me.
James Glover [00:44:35]:
You are welcome, sir. Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable Soul Podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitable soul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.