Episode #40 James & Rebecca

Sibling Superpowers and Playful Rivalries: Family as the First Classroom of Purpose

In this episode of the Excitable Soul Podcast, Rebecca is back and together, we explore how family, especially siblings, act as the very first classroom for discovering purpose and meaning in our lives.

We share real stories on love, rivalry, and how our childhood dynamics shaped who we are today, personally and professionally.

We also discuss how our experiences growing up impact our confidence, resilience, and the way we build relationships as adults.

Whether your family dynamic was smooth or chaotic, there’s always something powerful to learn about yourself. Tune in and start thinking about the lessons your own "first classroom" taught you!

Read the transcript here

James Glover [00:00:09]:

Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.

James Glover [00:00:44]:

So let's get going, shall we? Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Excitable Soul podcast. I've got Rebecca here with me again. And we thought that we would playfully talk about purpose in siblinghood. This is a kind of a unique dynamic and frame that the two of us can bring. Yet, millions of us out there are all, from families of one shape or form or another. And and we thought it might be quite fun to talk about meaning in the context of family. You know, family almost being the first classroom of purpose before there were managers or mentors or even friends.

James Glover [00:01:26]:

We were busy learning what matters from the people that are around us, the good, the bad, the ugly. And so we wanted to explore some of those lessons whether kind of explicit or unspoken, that contributed to our sense of self and our kind of meaning and understanding. And in Rebecca's and my case, definitely how love and rivalry, really shaped who we became with our sense of belonging. So, yeah, Bec, how do you how do you feel about that?

Rebecca [00:01:58]:

I'm quite excited about it. I also, actually we're doing that intro there, thought it would be interesting. Joseph's perspectives, like like the dynamic that he would have sent. I I think it's kind of important to mention that we are we have we have one set of experiences. We're obviously from the same family, and therefore have experienced the same thing. And that's very different for lots of different people, depending on their situation, how many siblings they've got, whether they had close ties with cousins that that that do the same thing. So it means that our, we are very aware of that, but we're very much gonna speak to speak to our truths and our experiences in this.

James Glover [00:02:42]:

Yeah. I think that's a really a really important point in that we're not trying to share how it is. We're just trying to share how it was for us. And that, actually, the provocation really in this conversation is for everybody to be able to sit and reflect back and take the opportunity to make sense of those experiences, those interactions, just kind of remove judgment from, the good or the bad and actually just see how did I or how do I understand myself now in this moment in the context of those experiences, whatever they were like? Because that's the gift really here is that, we all have the power to be able to go back, kind of make sense of those experiences, and think about how does that how has that shaped who I am? But also who do I want to be? Because I'm not I'm not held in a fixed place by that.

Rebecca [00:03:31]:

No. And I also think, like, as as you're talking now, I'm kind of going you you also have this very fixed set, sense of what the world is and who you are. And it's very narrow when you're a child, isn't it? So the situation that you've got in your home, you kind of feel like that's the same for everybody. And it's only when you venture out beyond that as you grow older and as you form other relationships that you kind of go, This isn't normal. Just like, I have some stuff to work on.

James Glover [00:04:03]:

Work out, work through, let go

Rebecca [00:04:05]:

of. Yeah.

James Glover [00:04:05]:

Yeah. All of it.

Rebecca [00:04:06]:

I mean, I'm sure that we'll talk about games later, but,

James Glover [00:04:11]:

Yeah. The then well, the interesting thing about games is that they may have shaped who we were in the past. It is still violently playing out in where we are right now. So there's something in that. But, but, yeah, I think it's probably it's it's probably just useful to start with, with Lisa Feldman Barrett and kind of neuroscience around how emotions are constructed here as as a as a way of as a way of giving a lens to everybody regardless of your family situation and your sibling experiences. And that, her work is absolutely phenomenal. And I heard her again on a podcast recently just saying, you know, your brain exists in a dark box, and it relies on sensory information to try and construct what the world around you looks like. It has no direct access to the world at all.

James Glover [00:05:02]:

So it is relying on the information that's coming through your your, your sensory organs and then making sense of that data. And so she was saying that, like, our identity is never ever just one thing, and it is never a static experience. It's a dynamic experience because you're constantly trying to make sense of the world. So you're constantly trying to make sense of yourself in the world. And so she's basically said that your entire awareness of who you are and the experiences that you have can be simplified right down to past experience that shape the predictions that your brain is making about the data that it thinks it's getting or thinks that it's going to get. So it's constantly trying to make predictions, and it uses past experience to make a best guess of what that looks like and then current information. So the immediate stimulus that's coming into your brain, and it puts those two things together and goes, here's the world. And so she's saying all the time, every moment, if you consciously and intentionally choose to, you can decide what are the past experiences of the future.

James Glover [00:06:09]:

Now that might sound a little bit crazy, but if we're having an experience right now as we move through time, that that's a past experience. So I choose in this moment how I want to be, and then all of a sudden, it becomes a future past experience. So you you could for example, when we play board games, I may immediately go into those board games being slightly defensive and territorial and triggered by you.

Rebecca [00:06:36]:

By me, specifically.

James Glover [00:06:38]:

Specifically you. And, those are those are based on

Rebecca [00:06:43]:

Past experiences.

James Glover [00:06:44]:

Thirty eight years of past experience. Now I have to Alright. Setting the tone. I have to take ownership over over that in that those were past experiences. They don't necessarily guarantee this current experience. And so I can choose every moment, every time that we engage in those board games, how I want to arrive and how I want to show up in those and not be burdened by that past experience. It just so happens that I enjoy that what the what comes from the

Rebecca [00:07:13]:

Just like to. I just like to stop you there. I've listened for long enough because we come from a family of cheats. Like, not in general, not in life. Like, we're very honest and loving people.

James Glover [00:07:24]:

The highlight of integrity and social interaction.

Rebecca [00:07:26]:

Yeah. In in games, we are horrendous at cheating. And we have learned that at our mother's knee. She's the worst. But she's only the worst because she's so committed to the fact that she would never, and that she is not a cheat. That that she would, she would like lie right down to the very end. Dad's more obvious about it. And we, we, we've grown up.

Rebecca [00:07:51]:

I think this is where creativity comes from. Finding, finding ways to win. To the point where, when I went out into the world and played Monopoly, I realised that none of the rules that you guys taught me are real rules. Yeah. So I'm pretty sure that learned

James Glover [00:08:08]:

those rules from dad. Yeah. Sam Sam Story, my oldest mate in the world, will till will still tell the story of, of realizing that whoever was the banker in Monopoly didn't get an extra secret stash of two five hundreds that they could put underneath the board, which I thought was the rules because that's what that had done. So when we played and I was the banker, I had these two five hundreds. So when he went and played with other people and they were like, hold on. Here's the rules. Try reading those because, you know, this I think there's something there is something really meaningful in this. I'm like, if dad said it was a certain way, then it was a certain way because that's kind of how how I held him, how maybe we held him, and and didn't question the kind of the authority around that.

James Glover [00:08:57]:

There's a life lesson I'm it's dawning on me here in terms of questioning the authority type. How how am I 44 and realizing that the, that the me going out in the world and just believing that other, what other people said is, is more important than what I say. Comes to my dad cheating at monopoly.

Rebecca [00:09:17]:

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I think that there are there are playful sides to it, but I am absolutely more aggressive because I've got brothers. There was a there was I was looking at, I was looking at research for, you know, what what does having a sibling bring you? And there is and I wish I could find it to quote it to you. Something along the lines of here we go. A study published in the journal of the family psychology reveals that having a sister, specifically, mental health and self esteem. The presence of your sister is associated with increased compassion, reduced feelings of loneliness, and improved social skills. So I've made you a better person.

James Glover [00:09:56]:

Oh, wait. Who published this research? Was it, you know, Rebecca Irving?

Rebecca [00:10:03]:

No. No. I've grown out of that, James.

James Glover [00:10:09]:

Listen. I know that if you put into ChatGPT, hey. Create a piece of research that suggests that female siblings are all of the above. It will write you something pretty convincing. So, yeah, maybe we'll have to publish in the meeting, though, in the, in the in the podcast notes this particular piece of research and we can let our audience follow-up.

Rebecca [00:10:28]:

Along with cheating comes distrust. Can you hear that? Like, instead of going, do you know what, Rebecca? You have brought those things to my life. I completely see how that's true. It's approve it.

James Glover [00:10:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. Wait. Hit hit me with them again. I was busy not trying to listen to what they were because of the

Rebecca [00:10:46]:

Okay. So that aside, which I do think is about large part of a, our childhood and who what has made us who we are. There are lots of other elements on there of, I think, growing up with siblings. Interestingly enough, I had mum and dad over for Sunday dinner last night, and I was saying that this was the premise that you wanted to put forward for the podcast. And my mum's immediate reaction was, I don't know. Do you do you think that they've really affected you? And I was like, yeah. Probably. Good to think that you think they've had an impact on me though.

Rebecca [00:11:20]:

But then we were sort of talking quite a lot about, the stories. But her point was that there's, there's a fairly decent age gap between us. So what she was turning around and saying was there was enough space between us for us to, yes, impact each other, but also have enough room to be individual. And and that sort of rivalry that we talk about in a funny way, I don't think is as prevalent as it can be in some families of, like, comparison. Like, it wasn't like we were competing against each other other than, like, in games or

James Glover [00:11:54]:

And that and it yeah. And, you know, that's really true because really close friends of mine have got siblings of, a, the same sex, and b, where the age gets. So it's three and a half years between Joe and I, and then there's three and a half years between Joe and you. So there's, you know, seven years between the two of us. I I'll be really honest. There are times when I look back when I was a, a a kind of a teenager and sort of getting out into the world and, you know, was playing a lot of sport and was away a lot on the weekends. I don't really remember anything about you. Like, I got a bit yeah.

James Glover [00:12:25]:

So totally was like, yeah. There's a big gap here where Beck was around. And and she must have been okay because I don't remember any kind of traumatic sort of situation. But if I really try and think, like, in detail, we weren't we weren't living the same life, really, apart from, like, holidays and and all that kind of jazz. But I've got friends who there's, like, eighteen months, maybe even less in certain circumstances with brothers, and they literally fought until they were 30, and I mean, punched and kicked one another until they were 30. And we're it got to the point of going, oh, actually, no. You're alright, and I quite like you. And let's hang out together and, you know, let's be friends.

James Glover [00:13:02]:

And they're now the closest you can imagine, but it took thirty years of battling to get there and quite a lot of hatred to to get to that point too. So I think you've I think you're really really onto something here. And there's so many dynamics, so many, contextual elements that can influence the dynamics and how they shape up. But that's also the point is, like, well, how how were those environments shaping, and what kind of sense were you making? Like, how did it feel to be in a competitive environment or not to be in a competitive environment? I'm not necessarily asking you that. Well, yeah.

Rebecca [00:13:40]:

Well, but so first of all, I I am definitely more violent for having brothers. Like, that's that's my very core of my being. And that is because we lived in the middle of nowhere effectively, didn't we? Like, we backed onto fields and you neighbors could not hear you scream. And mum was really good at phasing out the sound. So providing we weren't just taking it too far and irritating her. We were sort of, allowed to fight and bicker. I'd expect that I'm here. Yeah.

Rebecca [00:14:11]:

Absolutely. So so we did. And I was the littlest. So I, you know, mostly Joe, because you were off, you know, conquering the world one karate belt at a time or what have you. But, yeah. I we only got told off when my screaming got too loud. And then it was me that got told off. It was like, Rebecca, stop making so much noise.

Rebecca [00:14:32]:

I am literally pinned to the floor while he pretends to spit in my face. Like, why am I the one that's being towed up? So the reaction to that is, the learn the learning from that is fight back. And fight back hard and fight back quickly because because otherwise, you get shouted out screaming. Yes.

James Glover [00:14:49]:

Squealing is not gonna do you any good. Yeah.

Rebecca [00:14:51]:

No. Exactly. And I think that what has been really lovely from a violence perspective of having brothers is certainly me and Joe, but also the same rule applied to you. Is it would start off as a play fight and then it would get, like, he'd hit me. We'd we'd be fighting. He'd hit me one side too hard. One time too hard. I would lose my temper because it really hurt.

Rebecca [00:15:14]:

So I would hit him way too hard. And then he would lose his temper. And then you'd be having a proper fight until you were both knackered until you were both really tired. And then you'd be like, should we stop here? And yeah, that would be Yeah. That would be the end of it. And you'd be, and you'd sort of like go away, calm down and then you'd be friends again. But I think, I think A, that taught me how to hit, which was great. But also that, you can get over it.

Rebecca [00:15:38]:

Like fighting is temporary. And that in our dynamic, even if you had genuinely fallen out because like when you live, your siblings fall out, right? Especially us. That you can get over it quickly. It's not worth it because we'd lived in the middle of nowhere. So you were the people that I played with. And if I was gonna be cross with you, I was by myself. So

James Glover [00:16:00]:

I think there's something, I think there's something really useful to kinda fast forward into the here and now, though, in with that. And then I think this is the point. Right? It's like, it's the sense making around these experiences. So, yeah, we can get we can get preheated pretty quick, but we can also acknowledge that it's over and walk away from it. And there have definitely been times, like, in our recent past, like, in the last few years where we have really pissed each other off, and pushed it too far. And it and it maybe be maybe something that was playful that's kind of overstepped the mark. Yet the ability to turn around and go, hey. I'm sorry.

James Glover [00:16:37]:

Like, I didn't I didn't mean to go there. Now when you watch your sister cry, it's never a good experience because, you know, you were the root cause for it even if you didn't think that that it was it warranted that, like, that there's there's no good that comes from that. And the ability to turn around and go, right. Okay. That went that went too far, and I'm sorry, is really, really important because I think it, it it just shows the depth of the relationship that we have because we're not you're not trying to, like, hold on to a position. Like, well, that's her. You know, she's always been sensitive. You know? Got the little ones.

James Glover [00:17:13]:

Always the youngest. Taking it way too long. She's trying to get just because dad's around. Dad's around, so dad will see. So she'll get dependent. No. You're not

Rebecca [00:17:22]:

Just just on that point, because I still have very fond memories of dad worked away quite a lot. And I and I used to get beaten up and I used to get told off for shouting out or whatever. But when dad was home, it was a different dynamic. And I have distinct memories because at one point we all shared a room. I have distinct memories of being bored, walking into our room. You were, like, doing some homework or something on the one desk that we had in there. And Joseph was quite happy by himself. Me looking at you both laughing and then screaming.

Rebecca [00:17:57]:

And dog come in upstairs and whooping the pair of you and we feel like, what? This is the long game. So, manipulation is something I learned.

James Glover [00:18:11]:

Yeah. But but the laughing the laughing there of this is the long game, like, a % know that Joe and I will have been, yeah, but dad's going away again.

Rebecca [00:18:21]:

Yeah. Yeah. And thus, the cycle continued.

James Glover [00:18:25]:

Continued. Yeah. Brutal. Brutal. Right. But one question in in thinking about all of this and just thinking about those kind of journeys and growing up and how it shaped meaning and therefore has kind of influenced purpose, etcetera, was I I have really clear memories of the things that I wanted to grow up and be when I was little and and how that kind of shifted and changed. But I have no recollection of who you wanted to be or what you wanted to be when you when you grew up. Like, I had this real this real, kind of tension of between being, like, a Hollywood Star Actor and an RAF fighter pilot.

James Glover [00:19:07]:

Those were like those were the two things I was gonna be. Like, because because they are the two easiest things you could possibly be when you go up. Like, that was it. And Tom Cruise did both. Like, the guy got to be a a a like a a Hollywood Superstar and fly around in jets and he's doing it even more now. So I knew I I knew that about myself. I didn't know what you wanted to be. What what did you want to be when you were little? Little little.

Rebecca [00:19:32]:

Okay. So little little, like, the first thing I remember wanting to be, was a ventriloquist. I think that I had seen, I had seen, I think it would have been like Joe Pasquale or something like that on the Royal Variety performance. And he'd done something. And I was just sort of mesmerized, a, by how transfixed it made people, and by bringing a toy to life. Like, that was that was really cool. I was never any good at it though, and I didn't ever really particularly try. And I also couldn't say the word for a really long time.

Rebecca [00:20:09]:

So I was like, well, what was it that I wanted to be? Yeah. Ventriloquist. Smart. What's my first thing?

James Glover [00:20:16]:

When you say I was never really any good at it, that kind of means you must have practiced. Like, what did you practice with? I

Rebecca [00:20:23]:

just just seeing whether I could talk with my mouth closed or with my and I couldn't. And that was kind of as far as that went, but, like, I held onto it for quite a long time.

James Glover [00:20:36]:

Wow. I did not I did not see that coming. I did not see that coming. What was it what was it about Joe Pasquale's squeaky animation of dolls that made you go, oh, yeah. That sounds like a good idea.

Rebecca [00:20:48]:

Actually, funnily enough, because I was thinking about what it was about you and Joseph that's sort of, I think, had one of the biggest impacts on me. And I think that Joe Pasquale, I'll come back to in a moment. But you and Joseph are such big characters. Like, you are funny. And funny in different ways. Like, really, really funny. Like, when you walk into a room, people turn around and look at you because a, you are both very tall and broad and, beautiful pea

James Glover [00:21:19]:

There you go. Thank you. I was gonna I almost thought I was gonna have to say it myself.

Rebecca [00:21:24]:

But you're really funny. And I think I, I've got a bit of a different sense of humor. So on a sort of a general day to day, I've got a bit of a dry sense of humor. I'm a bit quiet about it. Russ always picks up on it. Like, if I say something and it falls flat with everybody else, which he does very often, Russ is sort of giggling to himself in the corner because he he gets it. So I, like, my I looked at how that made people feel. Like, I loved being around you.

Rebecca [00:21:53]:

Like, my favorite times are, like, when we were growing up with Sunday dinner because it took as long as it took. There was no time restraint on it. Everybody, you know, you had that was the one meal where you had, like, several courses. And by that, I mean, you had dessert. And you could have some wine. Several courses. A banquet. We didn't know.

Rebecca [00:22:16]:

And it was funny. Like like, our family are natural storytellers. Mom is a fantastic storyteller. She is funny and charismatic. Dad, when he's in the right mood, tells a really good story. And you are literally hanging off of his every words. And he does he had these things where, like, he used to mime sewing his mouth shut. And then he'd mime taking the needle through his lip.

Rebecca [00:22:37]:

And then he'd pull on the pull on the needle and it would make his lip go out and stuff. And I was sort of sat in these environments just in awe. And seeing how other people responded to that. Like, they felt seen. They felt happy. They felt good about themselves. You were always lovely to everybody, you know? And I didn't feel comfortable doing that in the same way or I didn't like I would, I would try my way. Because my sense of humor is dry or whatever, or maybe I'm just not that funny.

Rebecca [00:23:08]:

It didn't fall. It didn't.

James Glover [00:23:11]:

There's an awkward truth being expressed here.

Rebecca [00:23:15]:

Do you know? We'll come back to that. But, but I think that's that's part of the reason why I make things because in those moments I was, I was a sit back and watch person. Like, I saw how somebody reacted or said something about something. And as they were talking, I would be inspired by, well, that shows who they are. And I could do this or I could make this. And I could show that I see them or have an impact on them in this way. So and I think the ventriloquism thing to a certain extent was a bit of that. Like, this brought people joy.

Rebecca [00:23:47]:

You know, in that moment, everyone was sort of collected together. And, it was it was funny when I was little.

James Glover [00:23:56]:

Yeah. I think there's, it's really interesting to hear you kind of reflect back your experiences in that because I would say Joe is funny. I wouldn't say I am funny. I'm I'm I'm, like, a lot like mom in terms of being quite gregarious with a group of people, and a big part of that is about making other people feel comfortable. And you can find I can find the playfulness in stuff. And so there's always I'm even like it now facilitating a group. I have to really stop myself sometimes from going, oh, you can take the piss out of that. A bit like the the the awkward truth of this moment here when you were just saying some really lovely things.

James Glover [00:24:33]:

I can't help myself. But that that doesn't that's not necessarily about well, I don't necessarily see that in me as being funny. That's just being playful and part of the kind of building an environment where people feel safe in the moment. And a lot of that comes down to having been around mum and how mum approaches a group of people and how people react to her when she get and, you know, that could be a group of mums at the at the, at the the the school gate waiting, and they might be having a conversation when mom arrives. But then when mom's in the middle of that conversation, the conversation is 10 times louder, got 10 times more energy in it, and she tends to be the center of all of that, and everybody's left like, I don't When you see that repeatedly, when that's your experience regardless of the environment that you go into, regardless of the context that you go into, you can't help but but you're just immersed in that whether you whether you know it or not. And then when you kind of double that down with granddad, with with dad's mum, when when I used to be out and about with him, he was such a warm gentleman who was really quite playful with people. And, and again, you could see the impact of that on others. So there's just this I'm almost describing what I absorbed because there were loads of other things in our in our childhood, in our environment.

James Glover [00:25:54]:

There was a whole load of other dynamics that didn't necessarily play out as well. Our other grandfather was a very, very difficult man, very difficult man. But mom used to talk about the fact that I would go into that environment and to be exactly the same as I was in another like, but this is me being really little, like seven six, seven years old, playful, energetic, etcetera, and it it would have an impact on him, positive impact on him. So if in your entire life, all you've ever experienced is if you are warm and playful, people are positive to you, then you go, there's something in that. But it also feels like there's a responsibility because it's awkward. If if people like, I find I find silence phenomenally awkward. Alright? Even as a coach, probably one of the biggest things professionally I have had to learn to try and become better at is silence. And even then, in my head, I have to say to myself, don't be the next one that speaks.

James Glover [00:26:52]:

Don't be the next one that speaks. Don't be the next one that speaks. In order to give somebody else some time that I know they need in order to think, and or I write notes because the writing of the notes is me trying to capture the thinking but also creates the space for the other person because I can't. I find it it's why I'm terrible in any kind of sales conversation because I'm I don't the silence is crippling. So I'm like, I'm busy just in with the questions and let's talk about this or tell the story and sometimes you just need to shut up in order to create impact. But that all comes from that that same place. You when you've got new people around the dinner table every Sunday because mom and dad could attract a wife and stray. And still now at Christmas, we don't know who's gonna rock up at the at the table because dad will have met somebody that doesn't have a place to go or they have a place to go, but dad describes how great it is at our house at Christmas, and they wanna be there instead.

James Glover [00:27:49]:

But you you you find I've certainly found, like, that's a great way of being able to just create an environment that I felt comfortable within.

Rebecca [00:27:56]:

But it's important to realize that not everybody has that skill, and it is a skill. That's, you know, you I kind of look in wonder. Because because Joseph does the same thing. And I think when you and Joseph are together, you set stuff up, and he knocks it out the park, like, in terms of humor. And he and, you know, and I think Joe Joseph has it in his very core, doesn't he? When he went to Camp America when we were when he was a teenager, he, used to write emails and we literally used to gather around the kitchen table for them to be read out to us because he's just, the way that his turn of phrases, descriptions of things are just so, so vivid. But also, you kind of you can't say that. There's the shocking element of it but he's so witty.

James Glover [00:28:45]:

And he writes like he speaks. So you're reading it and actually all you're hearing is his voice which makes it really funny too.

Rebecca [00:28:54]:

I think to me, a huge part of, having siblings Probably more so, I think having siblings growing up helps to make you who you are. And helps you to, you know, like fairness. Fairness is a huge thing, I think, when you've got siblings because we like, we've talked about it before that we didn't have an abundance of money. We were always we were very, very fortunate, but we didn't have loads and loads of spare money. So, like, we didn't have loads and loads of Easter eggs. I kind of look at the the amount of Easter eggs our children get, and it's crazy. But back then, we celebrated everything, but sort of in moderation. And I don't know whether it was every year or one year we got one, advent calendar.

Rebecca [00:29:36]:

So you got a chocolate every three days.

James Glover [00:29:39]:

Right? That was every year for a long time.

Rebecca [00:29:41]:

Yeah. So like, how has no Fiori like, when your brother steals your one advent chocolate that you have to wait three days for? Like, the violence in your response to that because he's already eaten it. There's nothing we could do about it. You know, so in terms of like fairness and I had to learn how to share. Because because you had to share.

James Glover [00:30:05]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because you had to share.

Rebecca [00:30:06]:

That means it wasn't natural necessarily to share because you had to share. So I learned that when I was a little bit older. But like, since then, being an adult, the security that came from I've shared all of these experiences with my brothers. They know who I am to my core, certainly as I was growing up. That being something I can always come back to. Like, I've got so many stories of when I've questioned myself or questioned my identity or I'm grappling with a situation that's happened. And you are the person that I turn to. To kind of go, hey, this is happening.

Rebecca [00:30:40]:

And this is how I feel about it. And your response to that helps me go, wow, he's really cross about it too. Or he agrees. Or, you know, because that and it's it's an alignment I've got with who I am and who you know me to be. That means that I can and I've I've got an example of that. So when I was at university, I had a really good friend who I thought was a really good friend at the time. And for whatever reason, I wasn't in a particularly good space at that point. And she had said to me, I hadn't had a fella.

Rebecca [00:31:15]:

That's it. I spent the whole year being part of the, the, the hockey group. And I'd never, I'd never got with anybody during that time because there wasn't anybody I wanted to, right? And she turned around and said that, I needed to be more feminine. That was the feedback that she gave me. That femininity was, like, on a dial, and and you needed to dial it up. So, like, sometimes it's okay not to be able to open a jar because that would make a man feel really strong and that, actually, you know, I'm I was a big personality. I was I I didn't I didn't have a dial. I just was what I was.

Rebecca [00:31:50]:

And she was suggesting that maybe I should not be like that. I remember being not not arguing that point with her at the time. And I think just because I had been I was taken aback. It's very, very rare that somebody gives you such frank feedback on you as a person. And especially if that doesn't fit with what you think of yourself. You're like, woah. Is that how everybody sees me? Am I some sort of, like, butch masculine sort of frightening person? And I remember ringing you and being like, I've just had this conversation. And you didn't say anything.

Rebecca [00:32:24]:

Like, you could always tell that you weren't even breathing. As I was sort of explaining it all. And then I'd kind of gone, but actually I think I think she's wrong. I think that I I think that I am feminine but in a different way. And I I need is not a man that needs me to pretend that I'm weak for them to feel strong, but I need a man that's actually strong enough for me to feel comfortable enough to be weak. If I'm, I am or not. Do you know? You know?

James Glover [00:32:52]:

Yeah.

Rebecca [00:32:52]:

And I remember you going, oh, I'm so pleased that you said that. Who the hell is this person? And why the hell are they saying that to you? And it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And you know, don't spend any more time with her or what have you. And it was that, okay. I'm right. You know? And I'm not I let it go immediately. Like, that was somebody else's opinion because my sense of self was right. Like, I had I had to work my way through it.

Rebecca [00:33:14]:

But you were the person that I went to to kind of go, This is what I'm thinking. I think that's the gift that siblings can bring.

James Glover [00:33:23]:

Yeah. There's a, I don't know. There's something like there's there's something about being kind of mirrors and magnifiers to some degree, aren't there? Like, you can the mirroring is almost a reflection of who you are and the kind of the magnifiers are there are some things that they will just dial up. Yeah. You know, strengths or weaknesses sometimes, which is why I don't fight with you because you are harder than I am.

Rebecca [00:33:47]:

That's not true, but I like it when you say it.

James Glover [00:33:49]:

But in but in terms of, like, the the the kind of the sense of identity in this, it's like, who do I want to be? And where am I where am I looking for understanding around that? And now because I do exactly the same thing with you and have always done. And I I remember my first relationship, was a disaster. Like, I waited twenty three years to be in a proper relationship, and then it was an absolute shower. And and it was one of the most difficult experiences I think I'd had in my life up until that point in time. I was definitely abused, %, and didn't know it because, how how would I know it if I'd never really but but part of me wrestling with is this right, could this be right, is having a relationship with you where I'm able to turn around really openly and go, I'm having these experiences. This doesn't feel right to me. Like, what? But to be able to talk to another woman really openly about experiences of a woman and go, is this me? Is this a man thing? Like, have I lost my mind here or am I not seeing something or is there something else that's not playing out? And to be able to get that sense check. And to your point, there'll be times where we're automatically aligned and on the same page, and it's almost like that reassurance.

James Glover [00:35:11]:

Yeah. Cool. Okay. And then there'll be other times where and this is definitely the case in in now married life. And part of the reason why I feel like I have a successful relationship is because you are in it. I think that you like my wife more than I, and you two, you have a really wonderful relationship. And there are times we have conversations, like, how is this happening again? How are we here? And you're like, yeah, but have you thought about this, this, and this? I'm like, no. I have not thought about those things.

James Glover [00:35:35]:

Like, why how should I be thinking about those things? Where does that come from? He's like, well, if you think about these things, then what you will probably see is this, this, and this. Oh. Oh, god. Wow.

Rebecca [00:35:45]:

I really should have seen that. No.

James Glover [00:35:47]:

I really should have seen that. I feel like I need to go and apologize. I will speak to you later. And then kind of disappear disappear off. Not because not because of some willful disregard, but because of some lack of of insight or thoughtfulness. And when you have somebody who you can go and speak to where you know that you're not going to be judged regardless of the regardless of the stupidity, if you like, then then that's an unbelievable an unbelievable safety blanket, an unbelievable safety blanket. And I think just, the ability to navigate through life regardless of what's coming, knowing that that's been a consistent experience for decades means I look forward into a future going, there is a certainty there. Regardless of what comes, there's a certainty there.

James Glover [00:36:40]:

And also, it makes my heart heavy for the people that are close to us that don't have that and don't have those relationships and don't see that and don't feel that security. And it becomes really simple to empathize with people who are having a more difficult, more challenging time where their ability to navigate setback, their ability to find the kind of resilience within themselves, their ability to kind of know and acknowledge and hold on to who they are is far more challenging because the people that ultimately set that for them aren't in the picture and haven't really been in the picture. And so where do you go? What do you look for? And that's that's why it can be really, really seductive to turn to the outside in, isn't it? You know, like, there are influences out there regardless of what where you find where you look for them, you can reinforce any belief that you have if you go looking. Like, it it's out there. I want to be I want to be a fascist. Great. Right now, there's a ton of places you can go to reinforce that belief as being the right one. Or but or any that's an extreme example, but any variant of that.

Rebecca [00:37:47]:

But I think I think also, like, we we talk a lot about Brene Brown and about avoiding shame. And that sort of having that relationship with somebody so that you can kind of go, I feel vulnerable because I think I might be wrong or I don't know if I'm wrong. I can sense just to check this with you. Allows you to let go of let go of the shame so that you can do something and be self compassionate about it that you you wouldn't necessarily or already do. Which means you can allow people in. Because you can kind of go, actually, I I know I know that I live by that value or I know that that's the right thing for me to do. And it allows you to be more purposeful because you're kind of going, actually, I'm not going to say these things and do these things because that's gonna make you feel that way in order to hold on to that. Because I know I consent check that with somebody and that I'm I'm I'm doing things because I'm purposefully driven by it.

Rebecca [00:38:42]:

And it will in the long run be the right thing for you as well. You know? And it changes a dynamic and allows you, I think, a lot more a lot more freedom. Or at least certainly those relationships do for me. I think on a on a funny note or on a a very real note, your playfulness, you're taking the, taking the mic. You're turning around and saying that, you know, that I'm not funny. Yeah. Thanks for that. That is like a big part of a lot of sibling relationships, I think.

Rebecca [00:39:10]:

That like poking at each other both physically or, or verbally. That is a huge part of what makes your character up, I think. So for example, your amazing wife, is really funny and quick witted. And she talks a lot about how they weren't physical with each other. They used their words. That's what we needed to do. Yeah. Learn.

Rebecca [00:39:34]:

Learn.

James Glover [00:39:34]:

Use your words. We're asking the dyslexics. What?

Rebecca [00:39:39]:

I don't think I'm

James Glover [00:39:40]:

gonna spell words.

Rebecca [00:39:43]:

Fist, punch. Yeah. So like, I have loads I have loads of memories. And when I talk to people about it, they're like, that's awful. I'm like, no, it's not. I I I'm just sort of looking at myself whilst we're doing this. And I have a very prominent vein in my forehead. Right? And Joseph would just randomly come up to me, and he would just put his hand hand like, his finger on my forehead.

Rebecca [00:40:03]:

And I'm like, what are you doing? And he'd be like, I'm just waiting to see if your brain explodes. You know, if like what blood flow goes through that vein as to whether you'll pass out or something. And I'd be like, oh, you're such a knot.

James Glover [00:40:16]:

Can I can I just, you know, I think I feel like we need to just put a health warning on this particular show? No siblings were harmed in the making of this episode.

Rebecca [00:40:25]:

I don't think we can guarantee that.

James Glover [00:40:27]:

No. Yeah. I said I said it out loud. I'm like, I can't qualify that. Yeah.

Rebecca [00:40:34]:

But the the point being, it's that sort of you talked about resilience beforehand. And I think that what is that? What that has given me? I know that if Joseph in particular, but there's an element of you as well. When you stop calling me horrible things, then I know that there's something wrong. Do you know what I mean? Because because you wouldn't say any of the nasty things if those nasty things were true. So it's about finding the positives. Okay.

James Glover [00:41:01]:

I just wanna let's just I'm just going to have to challenge you here for a moment because we were away with Joe two weekends ago. He lives in North Wales. We all go into cars. We went to, we went to Anglesey Beach, and we sat on Anglesey Beach. And the two of you, completely unprompted and from nowhere, started to talk about me balding.

Rebecca [00:41:24]:

Now I don't think I did. Yes. You did. I didn't stop it from happening, but that was definitely

James Glover [00:41:29]:

back of my head. To the point where I genuinely had to ask the hairdresser when I went for my haircut. I don't when I went to get when I went to get my haircut, I was like, listen. I need some, I need I need a non biased opinion here. Like, what's the what just around the crown of the back of my head here. Like, what's the state of that? And they were like, yeah. It's fine. Why? What's going on? I'm like, is it is it far how is it in comparison to the other bits? And they're like, dude, it's fine.

James Glover [00:41:58]:

What's the matter? I'm like, just just may have got a bit of feedback from my siblings.

Rebecca [00:42:04]:

Oh, that's brilliant. I didn't know that you've done that. That's amazing.

James Glover [00:42:07]:

All of the positives that we're bringing. This is another example of this may be something in the sibling order. So the little sister there, did you see a nicely slopey shoulder? That was Jo, wasn't me? Literally zero ownership. Pass it up the chain.

Rebecca [00:42:22]:

Yeah. I mean, that's a learned thing too. I, I feel bad quicker than everybody else does. So I might say something nasty or cutting, but I would immediately go, I'm joking. I'm joking. I love your notes. You're beautiful, really, or whatever.

James Glover [00:42:34]:

Well, I mean, we work together now, Rebecca. And, on our last executive purpose immersion experience, there was a lady who was there who has got two twin younger sisters. And she she talks about the kind of the challenge in that their, their kind of relationship until they kind of grew up and now they've got a phenomenal one. And the constant barrage of abuse that you gave me over the three and a half days where we were together, this particular individual is like, I just love your relationship. I'm like, you love the fact that my younger sister is just giving me a word of abuse. Yes. That's pretty much it. That's what that's what I love about it.

James Glover [00:43:15]:

I'm glad that I gave you a laugh. I've got I got one I got a couple of other questions here because I'm I'm just conscious of, of time here. But one, we talk a lot about, kind of, childhood experiences and growing up. What was the point at which you started to see us as adults and, like, on our own paths?

Rebecca [00:43:41]:

I'm not sure we've got that. No. Adults on your own path.

James Glover [00:43:49]:

Yeah. Like, when and I and I and I take your I take your immediate first reaction. Right? When I was when I was thinking well, just thing. I mean, no. Because when I was thinking about this, I'm like, do I feel like the dynamic has, at its core, shifted in that way? And I actually I don't know that there's this kind of either or that we were these these kind of child siblings in a relationship, and we're now adult siblings in a relationship outside of the context that we find ourselves in. Like, where you know, like, I'm mid forties. You're 40 in a couple of years, and, you know, we have we've got the very real

Rebecca [00:44:28]:

Sorry. You didn't have to phrase it like that. You could have just said you're in your thirties, and that would have been great.

James Glover [00:44:33]:

Yeah.

Rebecca [00:44:33]:

Just

James Glover [00:44:34]:

You understand the conversation we're in. Right? But, but but we're, like so we're really there's kind of reality to the to the to the world that we're living in now in terms of people's relationships and important people on our lives and not everything is smooth sailing at all. And so there's very real adult consequences to the worlds that we're living in, but I don't necessarily know that the dynamic of our relationship feels like it shifted or changed. I was away with Joe at the weekend, and I'm still hungover two days later. I just don't drink like that, but I had the best time. Absolutely best time. And so there's a there's a part of that which it hasn't shifted or changed. There was buffoonery that that that took place.

James Glover [00:45:23]:

So, yeah, I don't know I don't know that I can answer that question in almost, like, defined terms. It feels like the world around us has got more grown up and we're having to react to the to those to those experiences. But what what it comes back to is this core of wonderfulness.

Rebecca [00:45:39]:

Yeah. I don't think I don't think like there was a moment where I went, wow, he's a grown up now. I mean, there were times when I've taken the mick out of you for that. Like the first car that you brought that had, a clear ceiling. And I was like, oh, wow. Oh my god. You bought a family car. And then I, like, looked at your I looked at your wife, and she just sort of smiled and nodded.

Rebecca [00:45:59]:

And I was like, you brought a family car. So it's like moments where I could have been a little bit more supportive, but I just enjoyed where you sort of, like, reached another milestone, I suppose. I think I think it's phases, isn't it? We go we go through phases. I When you were, working at Current Trends and you were this, like, super It was a brilliant time that I think. Because I worked in the reception. And there was you and there were Stapes and there were all of the other really charismatic, gorgeous white water raft guides. And people would come through the office to go and do their white water rafting with you. And then they come back like, they're so great.

Rebecca [00:46:39]:

All that closer. But there was that sort of phase where I was looking and you were this sort of free spirit that was travelling, that was going and competing for Britain. That was, you know, it was this era of that sort of going out into Nottingham when we were all quite young and and but you were at that sort of I was still I think I was doing my A levels during that time. And then kind of moved on from there. And you quite quickly went, I'm no longer a free spirit. I want to be up here. And then you're grappling with this, you know, why aren't I in a much better job that's being paid really well? And I'm there going, ah, because you were a free spirit. And that's the consequence of the

James Glover [00:47:17]:

whole thing. I am an administrator adding data in and yeah. Yeah. But live in a garage.

Rebecca [00:47:26]:

But that, we all love that garage. You but then that's where you almost came into yourself because you were kind of the the discrepancy between I should be in this position. You know, I that's what I have to offer. That's where I should be. I shouldn't have this interim thing. And I'm not there now. And your sheer drive and determination to go, I'm gonna forge that path because of these leaps of faith, which you talk about quite a lot in terms of, like, how how, elements in your life and how that's how that's contributed to your purpose. But actually seeing that go into fruition.

Rebecca [00:48:00]:

Like, I've I've changed jobs to this. I'm now working with this. I'm now working with the Olympics. I'm so empowered by that. I've heard about this bloke. I'm gonna go an interview. He's given me a job. I'm now doing this.

Rebecca [00:48:08]:

I'm not you know? And you kinda go, wow. He's just sort of jumping from one thing to another. And you talked about that relationship before. And I think it's difficult for siblings or to watch anybody that you love because you understand them. Like, I know why you were in that relationship. I know why it was difficult for you to see the situation that you were in at the time. I saw the good things because there's always some good thing there that keeps you going. So when that turned and how difficult that whole process was.

Rebecca [00:48:37]:

And to to to watch somebody that you so deeply care for and kind of go, it's not it's not bringing the best out of you. You aren't actually happy now. Those there's there is a shift in how that's changed. And for you to move on from that. And then, you know, each of these phases, I think it's just brought I think you become more purposeful. Rather than kind of go, he's an adult now. You kind of go, he's driven. He knows what he's going after.

Rebecca [00:49:06]:

And the and that's and that, I think, is the biggest shift I've seen. The way that you talk about parenting, I'm so inspired by. Same with your beautiful wife. You know, you talk really openly about, your daughter and about the the the in the purposeful way that you use language with your children. Not just your daughter, but we were talking particularly about her at that point. You know, about, it's about being strong. It's about seeing her body as being strong, which incidentally, she really, really is. Her cause.

Rebecca [00:49:43]:

Phenomenal. Like, to die for. And I and it's those sorts of things where you kind of go, you're not just you're not just letting time slip by. It's intentional. That was the word I was grappling for earlier. And that that is the adulthood. I wouldn't say it was about being adult. I would say so intentional about the things that you do and the relationships that you cultivate and the the the steps that you take.

Rebecca [00:50:08]:

I think that's what's that's where the biggest shift has gone as you've gotten older that I'm very proud of,

James Glover [00:50:14]:

I have to say. It's it's really interesting listening to listening to you describe that experience. And this is one of the cool things is to have somebody who knows you'd be able to describe experiences and go, alright. I'd never thought back from that perspective or seen it through that lens. And because I when I say I I don't know that I can turn around and go, there was a point in time where I looked at you and thought, now you're an adult, and we are having an adult type relationship is because I think of all of the key all of the key milestones that you have been through, Literally being the most celebrated student in your year at university and being at Lincoln Cathedral and you standing up in front of thousands of people and and having written and delivered something not just powerful but deeply moving. I still talk about that. It's not the moment that defines you. It's how you choose to live within it that that you kind of used in that that moment.

James Glover [00:51:05]:

Right the way through to meeting Russ and bringing him home, like, the magic of the magic of him and him being your choice and us being ready to take the piss out of him and him just having everybody's number and ripping it out of us. We can immediately be like, oh, yeah. He's a keeper. We like him. He's a keeper. To become the mother, you know, that's that's an experience that that Joe and I can't can't can't can't be in with you. And that's why we don't have the same understanding and insight in that experience. We can we can share parenting, but, like, becoming an and and professionally in the and the kind of the journey you've been around on on in all of those situations, I watched you navigate all of that in the same way that you navigate that moment with your friend at university, which is you're the one figuring it out.

James Glover [00:51:57]:

Right? You figure you you are figuring it out in your brain. You are choosing. You are deciding what's going on, and you sense check. So this has happened, feeling a bit like this. What's that like? And you calibrate the response and go, yeah. I'll take that on. No. I won't.

James Glover [00:52:11]:

You can do one. I'm gonna go do this over here. Respectfully. But, yeah, respectfully, jog on. But that but that but all of that has kind of remained consistent, and your nurturing, caring, creativity has been, like, constantly present for thirty plus year. I still remember going to university, and I was having a really bad time in my first year at university. It was not it was not good experience at all getting this, like, parcel from you and Joe. It was a care parcel that I think mom had put together, but you wrote me a little note in it, and I still have it.

James Glover [00:52:51]:

I still have this little note. I like only another dyslexic could read it. It's like Coke. But it was just this wonderful this wonderful acknowledgement of this moment and how you hoped it was for me. And I remember going, it's really not, but how wonderful how wonderful is it to have somebody that's at home thinking about you and hoping that your experiences are gonna be like this. I'm gonna go and get drunk now. But those those small moments of thoughtfulness that have just continued continued on. So there's a part of me that's like, I don't know that there's an evolution or there's a shift or there's a change because there's just this consistency and this continuity of love, of care, of support, of value that that I hope never goes away.

Rebecca [00:53:45]:

I think that mirrors back perfectly to what you were saying about, your brain being in a box or, you know, and and it's only from the senses And that that and that your identity is never fixed because you are continually making sense of it. Right? So the the idea that whatever situations come across may may shift or alter the way that you perceive how you are in that moment. But the, that infin, the constant that you've got from the people around you, all adds to your identity and who you are and how, how, how you move forward.

James Glover [00:54:25]:

Yeah. I think that if anything for us that's and I'd almost encourage people, I gotta be really honest. I get into these conversations with you and I can totally forget that we're recording a podcast that other people are gonna listen to because actually it just kind of the meaningfulness of the conversation. But there's something here about, you know, sibling superpowers and, and being able to see and understand, acknowledge the superpowers that that the the people that are in your life in that in those relationships have. And also being able to see the meaning in suffering sometimes. So we've had people that have worked with us on, in our immersive programs where they've had really, really, really challenging sibling relationships where they've had to basically care for their siblings because some of the challenges that they've they've faced. And, actually, part of the part of the impact of the work has been them letting go of some stuff because they've been able to see their contribution in the context of who they are and what matters to them, this sense of commitment or loyalty, or or or nurture that actually they haven't seen because the the kind of the burden of the relationship. So, you you know, this idea of the kind of the sibling superpower is what do you see in them, but what has it brought out in you? And, you know, regardless of that dynamic, again, just give yourself a space to go, what how have I risen to this? Or what have I learned from this? Or how has this shaped me in all these situations and circumstances? Because, you know, I think that that consistency of care certainly for me from you has been a sibling superpower that I still need.

Rebecca [00:56:05]:

Aww. I'll always be here.

James Glover [00:56:09]:

Alright. Before we can totally undermine any of that sentiment with some playful bobbins, we should probably we should probably pause. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you, Bec, for for kind of going on this on this journey of of siblings and purpose and and the kind of the power of of, of family being the first classroom of purpose really and, and how these and how how how relationships like this do really form and shape the way in which you make meaning and sense of the world. And regardless of what those experiences are like, what is it that you can take from them? What is it that you want to take from them, and how can that help you start to think about who you wanna be going forwards?

Rebecca [00:56:52]:

It's so rude.

James Glover [00:56:54]:

Love you.

Rebecca [00:56:55]:

Love you too. Bye.

James Glover [00:56:58]:

Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the Excitable Soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at theexcitablesoul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.