Episode #41 Jeremy Stockdale
Redefining Ambition: Jeremy Stockdale Talks Gender Advocacy and Purpose-Driven Leadership
Welcome back to The Excitable Soul Podcast! In this episode, we are joined by Jeremy Stockdale—CEO and founder of YLead, a leadership consultancy dedicated to developing purpose-driven and human-led leaders.
With a rich background that spans two decades at Barclays, leading teams across the UK and Africa, Jeremy brings a rare blend of real-world business experience and a deep-rooted passion for curiosity, compassion, and continuous growth.
Listen as we dive into the evolution of purpose and how life experiences, from becoming a parent to facing career challenges shape our sense of meaning and responsibility.
Jeremy shares how pivotal moments redefined his ambition, his journey from individual contributor to true leadership, and his transition from corporate life to building a consultancy with global impact.
The conversation also explores the power and responsibility that comes with privilege, Jeremy's commitment to gender advocacy and inclusive leadership, and why authentic connection, (not just strategy), drives transformative leadership.
Tune in for an inspiring discussion on how stumbling across purpose can unlock compassion, drive, and a deeper sense of service, both at work and beyond.
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Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you. So let's get going, shall we? Today's guest is somebody who lives and breathes leadership with heart and data combined.
James Glover [00:00:56]:
Jeremy Stockdale is the CEO and founder of YLead, a leadership consultancy he started in 02/2020 to help organizations develop purpose driven and human led leaders. Before founding YLead, Jeremy spent two decades at Barclays leading large diverse teams across UK and Africa, and developing a real passion for people, leadership, and gender advocacy. With a career that stretched from local branches to international transformational projects, Jeremy brings a rare mix of real world experience, business acumen, and a deep belief in curiosity, compassion, and continuous growth. Since leaving life in corporate world, he's been working with businesses around the world delivering leadership programs and speaking on gender unity, allyship, and inclusive leadership. Outside of work, he's a slow but enthusiastic runner, a loyal Chelsea fan, which we will definitely not be talking about, and most importantly, a proud dad to Phoebe and Toby. I'm really excited to have him on the show today. Alright. Jeremy, welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast.
James Glover [00:02:00]:
Mega to have you with us today. How are you feeling?
Jeremy Stockdale [00:02:03]:
I'm feeling really good. Thank you, James. It's as we're recording this, it's a Friday afternoon. I'm about to move to the the Mid Wales Coast for the weekend, so I'm looking forward to that. And, yeah, I'm I'm thrilled to be on your podcast. I love the way you do.
James Glover [00:02:15]:
Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you so much for for being with us. Like, you've you're gonna hit the the kind of the key topics of this podcast from so many different angles. I think we're just gonna have to, like, boundary the time that we talk that we talk about. For for the benefits of the listeners, we we just started to get onto a conversation around football and supporting two rival teams. And then we got into immediately a cultural conversation about those football teams. So we couldn't help but kinda get into the work.
James Glover [00:02:43]:
Anyway, given the nature of the kind of the experiences you've had and the variety of experiences you've had both kind of professionally and personally, I just kind of wanted to start with a really big and open question around purpose. And actually just how how do you make sense of purpose? Like, what does it mean to you when you think of it, you know, either philosophically or conceptually? Yeah. How do you make sense of it?
Jeremy Stockdale [00:03:09]:
I think where I am now, very much in the second half of my life, because I'm 55. So, you know, I I know I've gone past halfway. It it it it it matters so much to me. It it's almost kind of it's it's everything. If you have a sense of purpose in your life, then it guides everything else. I also feel that if you don't have purpose, no matter what else you've got, it can be really difficult. But I sort of stumbled across this through life experiences. There's been various days in my life where I've kind of, almost by accident, thought, oh, this is this is my purpose.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:03:40]:
And And it kinda evolves over time. It's really in recent years, I've I've thought it's everything. Having that real sense of purpose and how it guides other things you do. So, yeah, it's play plays a massive part in in me and my life. And I try and talk about it to other people as well. You know, it's it's in the work I do with with organizations.
James Glover [00:03:58]:
Well, so, like, three things already here. Like, one, the stumbling experience and where it kind of, like, has shown up. Then this conscious shift into it being really significant and meaningful, and then this being a, and now I bring it to others, and the kind of the transition between between the three. So I'm wondering if we can start with the beginning, really, and just give us a sense of where and how purpose became really prominent for you. What were the situations and circumstances that you found yourself in that kind of were confronting in a way that you're going there's either an absence of something or a presence of something that felt important?
Jeremy Stockdale [00:04:35]:
Yeah. So great question. So if I think back to my corporate career, because I spent twenty seven years working for a a large banking organization, which I joined in 1992. And I I think there were there were a couple of moments sort of midway through my career that started to really make make this make sense to me. The the first one was when my daughter was born twenty two years ago. So that I remember what the my sort of mentor at the time saying to me he was a former boss, but he was someone I always went to for advice and guidance. I remember him him saying to me, what does that what does ambition mean to you? And I'd never really thought about that before. I'd just always been ambitious, and ambition meant kind of moving up, you know, just moving up the ladder in a in a big organization.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:05:20]:
But within the context of having a daughter and having these new responsibilities, it did make me rethink about it much more broadly. So that was a a pivotal moment.
James Glover [00:05:31]:
What was it what was it about your daughter kind of coming into the world that created that, like, that experience for you? What were you what were you feeling in that moment that that made you kind of lift your head up and start to pay attention to that?
Jeremy Stockdale [00:05:43]:
I mean, I was feeling many things. I mean, I was feeling tired. I was I was I was feeling kind of a bit overwhelmed by it all as both my wife and I were, and, and this kind of profound sense of of love and responsibility that kinda came from nowhere. You know, normally, when you you people come into your life, love might grow. I mean, you know, but with this, it's like, oh my god. This is this is the most important thing in my life. You know? But then we both felt the same way. So so that that's creates a very profound shift, I think, in in parents generally.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:06:16]:
And I started to think about how that might impact my work. I remember I approached my boss at the time. We were doing quite a lot of work around flexible working, and I sort of joke, and he said to us, I'll list all the things you could do. We're having a sort of workshop. And one was a nine day fortnight. And I said, well, that sounds quite good. Can I do that? And he said, yeah. And so so we did for a while.
James Glover [00:06:36]:
So my question to you is around, what was kind of happening for you in that moment that kind of made it quite significant and kind of confronting the meaning bit.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:06:44]:
Yeah. So I think it just made me realize that my life had suddenly broadened significantly before it was before. I was very fortunate to have met my soulmate, you know, a a good ten years before and was was very happy and stable in my relationship. And I was building a very successful career that I was really appreciating and enjoying and felt valued and all those things. And then suddenly, there's this whole new sense of responsibility that that that kinda came in. And whilst we obviously knew what we were planning and we had nine months to to kinda prepare for it, the enormity of it was was quite significant. And, so it just made me think more broadly about my life and what was important to it. And, hence, you know, making sure I had time to be around for her and to be present and to, you know, be involved in things and and experience fatherhood.
James Glover [00:07:36]:
Yeah. Okay. Amazing. Because what I find really interesting is, you know, there are everybody has a kind of a different parenting kind of experience when you're in that moment and you're kind of I use the word confronted because as a father of two as well, I'm not sure you can ever get your head around what's gonna happen until it happens. I mean, as you say, there's like a a nine month a nine month lead in, but I gotta be honest. My wife was doing all of the heavy lifting literally in all of that. Like, I had nothing to do apart from making sure that she was okay. And then in the reality of them coming into the world, there's a whole bunch of stuff to to start to to kind of focus in on.
James Glover [00:08:18]:
And so your your reaction and response to that was to see more. Like, there was a broadening of perspective, like, a broadening of horizon, and that's not always the same for everybody. And also I hear this, like, desire to want to invest and to be present and to to think about what might the opportunities be around, around doing that. That's not always the case, in terms of in terms of the impact of that experience. So what do you think it was for you that made it really meaningful to the point where you were willing to change the the kind of the BAU almost in that moment?
Jeremy Stockdale [00:08:55]:
Well, I'd love to say it came from a very deep sense of conviction and and, you know, I think it was probably as more a reaction to the circumstances I've I've found myself in. And I've tended to be someone that will just be quiet yet go, oh, yeah. That's what I need to do. Right? As opposed to having thought it through quite deeply. You know? Sometimes that kind of reckless abandon can be really positive. It can also have negative, you know, sort of downsides as well. But I I I think it was just it was quite instinctive that, I just I just wanted to I I just I I think my I just felt expanded. I felt more grown up.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:09:30]:
I felt more responsible. I I really, up until that point, felt like a boy in shorts, except one that had a, you know, a very loving partner and and earned decent money in a big corporation, but I kinda, you know, still thought I was a kid. That did change things in in that sense. Suddenly, I was responsible for another little kid. So I think it was it was just that realization that I was in my mid thirties, so still pretty young. And, but it just gave me a sense of responsibility that I hadn't had before.
James Glover [00:10:02]:
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. And I and I love the barometer there of of of instinctual, and I felt this, and I felt that, and I felt the other. And I I think that's obvious that's the wonder of purpose, isn't it? Is that it's a felt experience and that when you when you start to become aware of that, poof, all of a sudden, you know, things kind of shift massively. But yeah. So I interrupted you as you were kind of starting to talk about how and where you made sense of it. Like, where where has it shown up for you? So becoming a parent was a was a was a significant moment.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:10:32]:
Yeah. So I think that that was the first one. And I I think then I found the next couple of years. Now how much of that was because my mind had shifted, and how much of it was the environment? So I I was working for a while, when Phoebe was born in in quite a toxic environment. But I got to a point where I'd I'd started my career in branches, and then I'd moved into head office and built quite a successful career in that environment. But I I remember getting to the point where I just was I had no longer had the ambition to move up in that environment. I just didn't wanna do another round of strategy and planning, deal with all the politics. And I and I was quite fortunate that someone suggested that why don't you look at doing something else? And there were jobs going back in the branch network for area directors.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:11:15]:
So for and they want they were looking to expand and reinvest in the network, get new types of leadership in there. And and for me, it was a sideways move, but it just seemed really appealing to get leadership under my belt and to do something different. It felt exciting. I went on a few branch visits and thought, oh my god. Since I left the branch, nothing's changed. You could see the underinvestment. But I thought if I could go in there and actually have an impact and change things, and you would then reconnect with how wonderful people in the front line are, you know, just the stuff they deal with. So so that's what I did.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:11:45]:
I I threw my hat in for one of those jobs, got it very, very excited. We then moved from Cheshire where we've been living, down to to Bedfordshire, and I started as an area director in 02/2004 with with, I think it was something like at the time, 16 branches, about 80 people, which was a big shift from before. I'd had a a small team of about six, all kind of sitting around me in my head office, and, you know, they were kind of grads. They were, you know but I had them around me, and most of what I did up until that point still was my output. You know, what I got in the water was my output. Suddenly, I had to everything was done by other people. And what happened was that for three months, it was absolutely brilliant. I just loved it.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:12:30]:
I was younger than most of my peers. I'd come from a different environment. I was fresh faced, enthusiastic. I brought different things. They all thought I was great, and I I just thought this is amazing. What an experience. And and it it's just really easy, isn't it? You go around the branches and you sprinkle fairy dust and everyone's like, oh, it's so good to have you really you know? And then after three months, I I kinda had to deal with the reality of of performance and how to get the best out of it. And I realized probably sometime after my team that I didn't have a clue what I was doing.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:12:59]:
Just didn't know. And this performance started to drift, and the things I tried didn't work. And long story short, for the next it was about eighteen months in that first area. I was hopeless. Really hopeless. And and the worst thing about it, and I look back on it as obviously a very formative part of my career. The only thing I feel bad about, I feel bad for the people I led, because they were really good people, and I just deserved and they needed better. And I look back now as almost one of the the sort of genesis of my kind of, you know, real strong feeling about what I do now is that we can't just leave leaders to just get on with it and hope they get it because it's just unfair on the people they lead.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:13:40]:
So I was I was quite lucky. What happened with me is, first of all, people stuck with me. My boss after about fourteen months suggested, why don't you go and just shadow a couple of other more experienced area directors? And I just spent a day with these two different characters, very different characters from me, different parts of the country, and I just watched what they did. And and I just spent the previous forty months absorbing advice and templates and various other things which didn't work, but just seeing what people did and how they did it was a real game changer for me. And and as I started then to kind of apply some of those things, it did start to have an impact. And then we had a restructure, so I moved to a different area, and I was able to apply what I'd learned, perhaps leave behind some of the baggage so that that was more successful. We had another restructure after nine months because we just restructured every sort of nine to eighteen months in in the company. Barclays, actually, the company I work for.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:14:29]:
And then I went to another area where, again, I was more successful still, but still wasn't the finished article. But in my there was a point actually through that. I was in a a year in that area where I I really I I stumbled across my purpose as a leader. I remember that we we're about six months in, and we were doing pretty well, and we'd come from, like, really big a really poor poor performing area to sort of more middle of the pack and growing. And we had a a recognition event where we got all the branches together on Friday night. It was it was just a really beautiful evening. There was so much excitement and belief and joy and and, I I guess, you know, gratitude for the fact that we were there, and now we're kind of here and people look at positivity back. And I remember the following day thinking, oh my god, this is this is what I wanna do, this is and this is why.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:15:16]:
It's not about where I am on the league table as a performance or what my boss thinks about me and and and, you know, bonuses and recognition you get. It's about seeing the impact I can have on people's lives. It was a really profound realization I had that, oh, this is such a privilege. Such a privilege and and, obviously, big responsibility. I think from that point onwards, I just nailed my colorist leadership pass and thought, this is what I wanna do. This is what I wanna do. And at that point, I wasn't even that good. You know? I was totally getting better, but it's it's like I I just so in other words, I found my purpose as a leader.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:15:52]:
It it it by accident, this is this is what what I wanna do. So I went from seeing myself as being a whatever project manager, strategy and planning director, to suddenly I saw myself as a leader, and that's what I then did for the next sort of thirteen, fourteen years before I left the company.
James Glover [00:16:10]:
Something really interesting about that, that kind of shift, Jeremy, in, in that there are there are lots of people out there who hold roles where kind of leadership is is is assigned because of the seniority or because there's a management of other people, and yet it can feel like a, on the side of the desk element of a role actually leading others because there's a there's a delivery responsibility or there's a, there's there is some element of output that is required by them, which is front and for first and foremost. But then the environment they create as a leader is almost secondary to that. And and we both know that actually it's it's the other way around. Like, the leadership responsibility is to create the environment for other people to be able to thrive. And then if there's stuff that you need to do off the back of that, actually, if you've invested in the right place, your chances of being able to get to the high value things are are evident. But a lot of the time people wrestle with that because it's the me versus others thing. And it sounds like this question around ambition and what does ambition mean to you and this sense of it is about me and the journey I'm on almost to an epiphanal moment of actually it's about service and service to others, like what am I contributing? Again, was kind of one of those moments of of broadening, of seeing more than you saw before.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:17:33]:
Yeah. I mean, it was a real epiphany. I remember distinctly where I was, who I was talking to, when it just it occurred to me. You know? And and it and it really felt like it. And it and it happened by accident. I mean, it, you know, it may may may not have happened. But I think what you said is is a % right, and I think this is almost the tragedy of leadership is that I've I've seen some research says eighty two percent of people are accidental managers. In other words, because they have strong technical skills, they get then assigned people, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:18:05]:
But the idea that you can just automatically you you wouldn't so you say, for example, you're a, you've been working your way up in in a finance role, and then you become a finance director. And as part of that, you have to lead other finance people. Well, they wouldn't they wouldn't have you as a finance director without having done your ACCA or equivalent. You know? You you you wouldn't say, right. There you go. There's all the numbers. Off you go. They wouldn't do that, but they say, here's a bunch of people without any kind of training in how to to manage and how to lead people, how to understand people.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:18:37]:
And what's worse is we almost then give people kind of management techniques. Like, here's how you do things like disciplinary and grievance. Here's how you deal with sickness. Here's how you deal with performance management, but not how you deal with people. And that for me is the thing that's fundamentally lacking. And I was lucky that I was able to absorb that over many, many years by observing good leaders and experiencing good leadership, but also observing really bad leaders and experiencing bad leadership and think, well, actually, that's what I should be doing. That's what I I shouldn't. But I think it's, it amazes me that even to this day, we we carry on in exactly the same.
James Glover [00:19:14]:
Yeah. Amazing. And and I and I really love this idea of of your openness and curiosity to what does good and bad look like and a willingness to embrace those things because that's often part of the same shift from self and trajectory to service and others is a willingness to go, how am I at this? Like, what does this look like for me? And so, one of the things I'm interested in is you talked about I found purpose. I found leadership purpose. So there almost feels like there's a separation there between purpose and leadership purpose. And I'm really like, I have a perspective, but I'm really interested in in in that and how you kind of make sense of, of of those experiences.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:19:59]:
Yeah. I mean, because, clearly, in a work environment, I decided that my my purpose is to lead and to lead as well as I possibly can because that's what people deserve. I think that whole the word he used about service is one that perhaps I didn't appreciate at the time. It sometimes gets mixed up with servant leadership, which is just something that's kinda banded out but ready delivered. But I think this whole idea of a a life of service is a is a very powerful one. But I think you're right because if I reflect back, I I my life had a much broader purpose than that. So there's a broader purpose now, but at the time, I I kind of really would define it through my work. But it probably meant that the way I say led my children as they were growing up wasn't as effective as how I led people at work.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:20:49]:
I would I would perhaps treat my children in a way I would never dream of treating people at work as in impatience and and indifference and, you know, not fair with no pride, just reflection back on on that time. And it's not that I wasn't a bad dad, but I know I could have been far better at at times as they were they were growing up. So I think, you know, I've probably found purpose in one particular aspect of my life, and I felt very, very kind of strong sense of responsibility to my, you know, to my wife at the time and my my children. But but, yeah, perhaps not that same sense of purpose that I've I've I applied to work. And that definitely has broadened in in later life.
James Glover [00:21:30]:
And I I'm super keen to kind of explore how that how that's kinda shifted and changed because I think for the for those that are listening, there are, you know, horrifically bad development programs that will get people to focus time and effort on a leadership purpose, and it's so narrow and superficial in in comparison to the richness of, like, genuine life experience and what purpose really can bring and means to people when we feel connected to what's meaningful to us and we understand the contribution that we're trying to make to those things and and what that really looks like. So for you to be able to go, Yeah. Here, it looked really clear. And, actually, even if I just take this sense of desire to lead and have and and be in service of others, I was doing that really well in this context. I'm not really not really intentionally paying attention to it over here. And if if we had a different conversation, I said, what's more meaningful to you, your children or work? You'd go, my children with a in a heartbeat. Right? And then absolute heartbeat. So there's something really amazing.
James Glover [00:22:30]:
But, and for people to kind of sit with that of, yeah, great. Have clarity on, on why you are doing something in a particular context. But always remember, you can step back from that context and still ask yourself that same question of why am I doing this? And actually, the more you give yourself the opportunity to see the different perspective, the more, actually, there are things that connect the dots. Right? There are things that link up.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:22:55]:
See, I think at listening to you, I'm just reflecting now. I think that it's really interesting. I don't think I've quite made this link before. But I think what I I I discovered the importance and the purpose of leading my responsibilities to the people I led. And I think the more I did that and the more I invested it and and sought feedback and observed what was happening, the better I got. There's no question. I don't think, though, that it was only when I really left the organization in 2019 that I've actually understood myself. I thought I thought I was really self aware.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:23:32]:
And, oh my god. I'm so so lacking in my awareness. And and it meant sometimes I could be really in the moment and really get where things were coming from, but I had so many blind spots. And so I think one of the things I remember, really thinking about quite a lot and it was bringing into some of the the work I did in my last few months at Barclays was that the idea that, you know, ultimately, leadership is the impact. As we said earlier on, it's about the impact you have on other people and create an environment for them. So leading people is what it's all about. But in order to lead people, you have to be able to lead yourself. You you have it's self it starts with self leadership.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:24:11]:
It starts with understanding your purpose, who you are, your your values, what really matters to you, what you're really good at, what you're not so good at, when you're at your best and worst. You know? Without that understanding, you're kind of trying to give your best of people without really knowing what that is. And I think it was I was surprised when I left and started to think differently more broadly about life and what I want to do, just how little I've been living, understanding my own values, living my purpose, and and adhering to that, and how how many times I just I wasn't being myself. Mhmm.
James Glover [00:24:50]:
So I
Jeremy Stockdale [00:24:50]:
think that that's really interesting because I think that's one of the fundamental things, I think, for me if you wanna move into leadership. And if you wanna find your purpose, you gotta understand yourself. You gotta do some really quite tough work to really understand who you are Yeah. And be honest.
James Glover [00:25:05]:
And and I and I love that because you can't you can't disconnect parts of yourself and just, an over index or over invest in one area and there not be a cost or consequence show up somewhere else. Right? And so the the very fact that you are a leader, it's a role that you're playing, but the way in which you embody and inhabit that role comes from somewhere. And there's either an intentional choice or an unconscionable choice unconscious choice about what that looks like and, you know, the the amount of work there is around authentic leadership, etcetera, etcetera. All we're really talking about is who are you, and what do you care about, and how is that showing up for you? And the more and the more you know that, the more you can go to a place of of, of of sincerity in those interactions. And we and we all know that those that you lead can smell the bullshit a million miles away.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:26:01]:
Totally. I don't know who who had the quote. They're quite often used, which I love, which is that it's it's better to be authentic than impressive.
James Glover [00:26:08]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:26:08]:
And and I've I've seen so many impressive people where I
James Glover [00:26:12]:
just go Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't doesn't sit doesn't sit quite well. But so talk to us about this this kind of moment of deciding to step away from the organization because, you know, the work that you do now and the leadership you bring to the world right now around kind of gender unity and gender advocacy and and kind of leadership more broadly. Like, how did how did that come about? Before we get into that work, how did that, how did that
Jeremy Stockdale [00:26:40]:
about? Well, I think I was there's definitely a combination of factors. So I worked overseas for about three years between end of twenty thirteen and and beginning of twenty seventeen. You know, my family and I all went over to we actually, where we worked, I might as well say it was Mauritius. So I it it was it was a harsh location, and and we spent three years on on that beautiful island, and I ran the retail business for Barclays. That's what I did. And and it was, without question, the the best experience work experience in my life. And and as a life experience, it was transformative for me in many ways. So incredible.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:27:16]:
And I came back, and we had to come back for a number of personal reasons. My daughter was very ill. My, there there were lots of things going on, and and it was a really tough year personally in 2017. But I worked for this amazing leader called Rebecca who just, you know, inspired me. She cared for me. She nurtured me. She rewarded my efforts. She made me feel psychologically safe.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:27:40]:
She she supported all the things I had to kinda deal with my personal life. And I had a great year. I had a really great year. And the following year, I worked for she left at the end of that year, and I worked for her boss. And, it was it was like stepping from sunshine into driving rain, just the difference in in culture and environment. There's many more things I can say, but it's it's a it's a this is a decent podcast. I I thought what it made me think about was that how arbitrary leadership is even in a big organization where I was a twenty five year veteran at that point. I knew my way around leadership.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:28:19]:
I've led big teeth myself. And to go from such a brilliant experience to such a terrible experience just because of it. I was doing broadly the same role, bit more responsibility. So that that made me think, and I was quite fortunate to be to be kinda rescued by one of my previous bosses who says, rather than waste your time doing that, come and work for me on a common. And I ended up being head of colleague engagement for the branch network. So it was like a oh my god. It's a it's kind of job I dream of. I was looking after your 10,000 people trying to create their better engagement forms.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:28:49]:
Wonderful. But as I I was there after that period, that's a comment. I was asked to write my job description to make it permanent. I just couldn't get excited about it. I I did and I I think when I realized, there was a number of factors. I was nudging 50. Makes you think about kind of what you wanna do the rest of your life. And I I I no longer felt connected to the purpose of the organization, but, fundamentally, with a few exceptions, I didn't believe in the leadership of the organization.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:29:19]:
And I just thought, do I wanna do another ten years earning decent money and just kinda hang on, or do I want to do something else in my life? And when I really evaluated it, it was a very easy choice. So that's that's the kind of a combination of reasons why why I left. I didn't really know what I was gonna do, if I'm honest. But what I do feel I wanted to do, I thought leadership's my thing. That's what I love. I'd love to do more leadership myself, maybe not in a big organization, but perhaps do interim jobs or even just help and support the leaders. I wasn't really sure. But, I spent six months of just having time off and just thinking about it, and that's when I then created YLead.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:29:54]:
That's when I then created my my company during the pandemic because I just wanted to help out more more lead other leaders lead with purpose, find a why as a leader, and then sort of go from that.
James Glover [00:30:05]:
Yeah. Amazing. And one of the there's a number of things that I'm really, like, really connect with me. One is, when you decided to take a step back and think about the choices that you were making, there's almost this inflection point. Actually going into the unknown felt really easy, well you know I say relatively easy because actually the the alternative just didn't didn't have that same emotional, there was no there wasn't the same emotional conviction. So willingness to kind of step into the unknown, which, like, we talk we talk and we hear a lot about certainty and the need for certainty and the role that certainty plays in kind of risk aversion and how that shapes everything from economy to political will to, social interaction. And yet there are moments where human beings can quite comfortably go into uncertainty when there is a feeling of disconnection or engagement in something different. So what what was it that, you talked about the kind of the leadership and you talked about kind of excitement around the role, but you were talking about kind of weighing up or calibrating your choice.
James Glover [00:31:18]:
What beyond the kind of the tactical of the organization itself, what were some of the things that you were seeking or felt absent in terms of that that, that calibration?
Jeremy Stockdale [00:31:27]:
It's really interesting the way you framed it because that's that's you're absolutely right. If I'd applied logic to it, I I would still be there now. I mean, I was earning decent money. You know, every single year, you'd get, like, a sort of a bit of extra money through through a bonus. My pension was being paid, and I I was I was good enough to to do that for another ten years. You know? I've eventually got taps on the shoulder, but probably not. Because also something through my career, I'd always been able to kind of reinvent myself. I got a bit bored, always got a bit complete.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:31:55]:
I'd try something else and would would get there. So I I wasn't someone that was stuck. I'd always able to find new things to do. So logic said, you stay. Absolutely. But I think it was it was that point around what what I'm again, I look back now with even more clarity, but I just felt constrained. I felt constrained by the the the organization's views of me and the perhaps limitations they placed on me, the way I was I've been pigeonholed over the years. I felt constrained by the fact I didn't really believe in a lot of the things the organization was doing and believe in some of the more you know, the influence influential people around me.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:32:34]:
And when I looked outside, it it just felt so much more expansive. There's a whole range of possibilities that I didn't really know whether I could do them or not, but it and I remember seeing a brilliant TED Talk, I wish I can remember who it was by, but, where it talked about how what motivates people and how it's it's fear that keeps us in place, but it's it's the the potential of a gain, even if it's not really that clear what it is that moves people forward. I really remember thinking that. I fear could have kept me in place really easily, but I just thought, no. Actually, I'll probably be okay. There's there's all these different things I could probably do, and that just I started to move towards those. It was just so much more appealing.
James Glover [00:33:21]:
I love the language as well. I think there's something really powerful in just being able to hold the tension between constraint and expansion.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:33:30]:
Yeah.
James Glover [00:33:31]:
And and how that that influenced your state to, you know, to be to be able to go, I I don't want to be constrained. I don't want to be limited. I don't want to be narrowed. I want possibility. I want opportunity. And I even know what those are, but it feels like they're over there and not over here.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:33:51]:
I remember the the boss that rescued me, and I used that word deliberately because he he really did sort of help me out of a difficult position, and I've worked with him previously. He was amazing. I mean, a real maverick. And, but when I told him my my decision, I thought he might be a little disappointed, but he just said, mate, that's I'm really proud of you making that decision. You can do so much more than you can ever do in this organization. It's brilliant, and anything I can do to help, just let me know. But it was it was it was really quite affirmative, but that's that's what I remember thinking is that there's just more I could do. Even though I don't quite know what that is.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:34:25]:
There's more I can do than the environment I'm in. And I think what what's happened over the last five years, without jumping ahead too much, is that I can't believe I never if you told me to be able to do the things I'm doing now and feel the way I do about them, I wouldn't have believed it. I would I just I I wouldn't have done. And and and, you know, one thing I it's really important to say is that the the value I gained from those twenty seven years, you know, the kind of the experiences, the hard knocks, some of the scars that come with it, all of that is incredibly useful because it's I can apply that now. I've seen many things that perhaps a lot of people don't from working that big organization in a variety of roles. So it undeniably was helpful for me, but I definitely left at the right time. Not not a minute not a minute too late or a minute too soon in my opinion.
James Glover [00:35:15]:
It was just it was just right.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:35:16]:
Just lucky. Quite lucky. Yeah.
James Glover [00:35:19]:
Amazing. And so so talk to us about how that's then shaped where you are now and the work that you've been doing over the last five years. Because if somebody just looked from the outside in, they would go, wow. This guy is is is massively fueled by purpose, just given the topics that you're kind of going after and the things that you're trying to to influence. But how did that evolve then from this no freaking clue to, like, you know, totally on mission?
Jeremy Stockdale [00:35:42]:
I know. Well, what happened was, first of all, I joined a a a learning consultancy at the beginning of twenty twenty, because I was approached by one of their directors I've worked with many years before and said, we're looking to expand. We wanna get some fresh ideas. Could you come in? And so I thought, yeah. That should be good. So I then about three months with them, and then a a couple of things happened. The first thing was it didn't feel to me like that organization had wanted to do perhaps the work to match the the verbals of the the you know, they'll otherwise make the changes required to realize the ambition. So I was kind of thinking, I'm not quite sure this is for me.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:36:14]:
But most importantly, what happened to the pandemic? So that kind of brought things to a natural close there, and I then spent the next nine months really working out where I wanted Wiley to be. I wrote a Jerry Maguire style mission statement just which was very cathartic, but it it's kinda made me think again about what what impact do I wanna have on the world in a way that I'd never really I've always been quite incremental Nature work for a big organization where suddenly I was like, how could change the world in in this way? And so that was the the job in 2020. In 2021, I started trading and doing, you know, just picking up some clients very slowly. I mean, it it takes a while as I'm sure you know. And then in 2022, I started to do more interesting work as I developed. But and it's always been about leadership and inclusive leadership and aspects of leaders. Most of my work has been around that, and that still is what the company is about. It's, you know, why leaders are helping leaders find that purpose, but actually to I want I want leadership to have an an a positive impact in the world.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:37:15]:
I want to have a positive impact on organizations and on society, one day perhaps in governments compared to the shit show we're experiencing around the world at the moment. That that's kind of the the the ultimate mission. But the the thing that's made me do what I'm doing now, and the two are kind of linked ultimately, but the the the work around gender was really inspired by a very tragic event, which I'm sure you remember when Sarah Everard was abducted, raped, and murdered by a police officer. And I was as shocked by most people would be about what actually happened, but I was also struck by the outpouring of sort of anger and frustration by women. You know, quite naturally, well, how can we ever be safe if this can happen? And I spoke to quite a few women at a time. One was of, someone I was working with, and I said to her, I feel really helpless, and I'm quite frustrated. What can I do? I'd I'd like to do more. What can I do to be a better male ally? And she just simply said to me, well, read two books.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:38:09]:
And the two books were Everyday Sexism by Laura Bates and Invisible Women by Caroline Crowley Perez. And I read them both, and if I'm honest, James, they blew my mind. I I I realized that I was I was half a century behind me, and yet I didn't really have a clue about how 51% of the global population experienced the world, just from those two books. Now I knew sexism existed, but I had no idea of the sheer scale of of just daily how it impacts women and girls. And and then, you know, Caroline's book, it the amount of data biases that impact women in a world designed by men for men is just extraordinary. So so I read those two books, and and what that did is it reignited my curiosity. I thought I didn't know this. I wanna know more.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:38:53]:
And one of the things I've always thought about leadership is that if you have a lot of privilege well, leadership is a privilege, so it comes with responsibility. I I think it was a quote by Spider Man, but I've always Yeah.
James Glover [00:39:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great power. Great with great power because great responsibility. Yeah. Uncle Ben uncle Ben said that.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:39:09]:
So the same thing applies to to me because I do have a lot of privilege, you know, from my from the color of my skin to the, you know, I I had a good education, you know, the fact that I'm a a male. There's there's lots of things that are in my favor, and I don't feel guilty about those. But I think because of that privilege, it gives me a greater responsibility than to use it to to benefit others. So, so I've read I've read many more books, and I've I've spoken to hundreds of women around the world. And I'm not an expert in the female experience, never will be, but I do sleep less stupid now. And and as a result of that, I I want to share what I'm learning with others because I'm I'm just struck by the inequities. And, you know, that's something I was saying earlier on about me not really understanding myself. I realized in in sort of the months after I left Barclays, I started to really understand what my values were, one of which is fairness.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:40:04]:
You know? And as a kid, I would have tantrums when things weren't fair. But even in work, I would have kind of more grown up tantrums where I felt that things weren't fair for either me or my team. It would I'd have a visceral reaction. So so that's always been running through my course. So when I see unfairness, I wanna do something about it, and I think I'm in a position where I can. So, yeah, yeah, I mean, so that that has been a real passion for me in the last sort of four years or so as I've learned to become more educated. It took me probably a couple of years for a start to actually vocalize that and write about it and do what I'm doing now effectively.
James Glover [00:40:39]:
And and, you know, you've used the word responsibility about seven times in the thirty minutes, thirty nine minutes that we've been talking. And I but I think there's, there's something in the work that we do where we're we're really interested in helping people understand how they how how and where they assign meaning to things. Because, you know, purpose is a purpose is an output. Right? It's a consequence of some stuff. Like, happiness is the consequence of some stuff. It's actually not the thing itself. You have to kinda do the work to find the stuff, and then as a consequence you get. And, and so where and how do we find and so you talking about responsibility, seeing responsibility, feeling responsibility, but acting on responsibility feels, like, really meaningful to you in any of the contexts that that you kind of sit within.
James Glover [00:41:30]:
And what what's really exciting when I listen to you talk about that is I'm curious to understand more. And then when I understand more, I'm motivated to to kind of intervene, to to to do to do some stuff. And I and I totally agree with you around what, the the kind of the way in which privilege should come with responsibility, and it's not be about being ashamed about that. It is actually about just seeing and understanding it and using it with intent. And, I don't know, I don't wanna necessarily take us down a rabbit hole or go off on one here, but I'm I'm having a massive reaction to to Trump and to Musk and to Andrew Tate and the manosphere and all of those things at the moment in that all of it is about, all of it is about going backwards to find some kind of certainty as we talked about before certainty that actually is really disruptive because it's just antiquated. And so people are so desperate to go I don't wanna say people, I'm talking about men, young men, old men, so desperate to understand their place in the world that they're wanting to go back to something that they understand because at least they understand it. And in actual fact, the work to be done is we have a place that we have a voice. Now and I say we because I'm a white man and you're a white man.
James Glover [00:42:52]:
Like, we have a critical voice in enabling all of the other voices and for everybody to be heard in a way that allows more things to be possible, not going backwards to some bullshit state of control, that that is limiting. And so there's something really wonderful here about what does responsibility actually look like in this context and responsibility that makes more things possible that isn't reductionist in nature. And so how are you finding that now in the work that you're doing and the places that you're going? Where are you seeing not only the possibility, but the tension, of disruption? Like, how is that playing out?
Jeremy Stockdale [00:43:34]:
Yeah. It's it's been a very interesting experience for me because I sort of find myself in the kind of, leadership was always my thing. And I find myself now in the kind of often placed in the DI bracket, which I don't mind, but it wasn't wasn't the intention. And so when you find yourself in that position as I've done for the last two years, it's been a bit like trying to catch a falling knife because as much as we're trying to make progress, so much is being eroded and rolled back. It's it's my the simple view, this is basically the patriarchy fighting back, which was inevitable, this kind of backlash, but, you know, we we we gotta sort of deal with that. But I think there's a number of things that have what you said about our demographic profile, yes, yes, it does give us a a lot of privilege. One of the things that I've since I first started talking about gender equity, sharing what I've learned, about different things I just didn't know for the first fifty one years of my life, the amount of women that have come up to me and and you said they they appreciate me talking about it. That's one thing.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:44:35]:
Because when I talk about it, I'm far more likely to be listened to by the people with with the power and influence, far more likely to be. I I've also had spoken to many women, and I totally agree with them. He says it it makes them feel a bit ick as well, but it takes that. It it takes now there's a number of ways ways of looking at it. On the one hand, yes. I mean, what do I know? I I was flying blind for fifty one years, and now I've educated myself so I know a bit more so I can talk about it, and people will then listen and go, oh, that's really when women have been saying this for decades. I I guess when it comes to privilege, though, one of the privileges that I have that a lot of women that I speak to and speak about these things don't have is I haven't experienced decades of of being ignored and being interrupted and and and past trauma from really bad experiences. I don't have that.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:45:24]:
So when I talk about these topics, I'm talking about something I've learned, I'm fascinated by, that I want to do something with. It's a very positive experience for me. It often isn't for for other people because they're the victims of of the situation. So so it's it I feel quite conflicted about it, but I've accepted now. It almost, like, makes me wanna double down on yeah. I've got all this privilege, and that does come with much richer, for the eighth time, responsibility, that to use that and to to but then again, or the other thing I often think about is it's not it shouldn't be about me. You know? It's it's a it's a fine line you tread in this kind of world between, you know, using using your voice in a positive way, but actually taking over like some kind of hero trying, you know, trying to save women, and that is death.
James Glover [00:46:16]:
Because that because that ultimately perpetuates the patriarchy. Right?
Jeremy Stockdale [00:46:21]:
Absolutely. Yeah.
James Glover [00:46:22]:
But I think what's wonderful about this, Jeremy, is that your your willingness to see the self and others, right, which is the same as you kind of moving into that leadership role and having an epiphany of, hey, ambition was about me and it's the next step and actually it's about service to others. And that but that's a constant tension in the same way that you described you can't lead others until you're leading yourself. So there is a it's never an either or, is it? It's always the both and in the same way that you being willing to stand up and say, hey. I don't know some stuff, but I've learned some stuff and here's some stuff you need to hear and you're probably gonna hear it from me. So let's have it whether you like it or not and go, but I need to be part of something because it's ultimately not about me. Like, that holding seeing that tension and being willing to hold that tension is often where the value is created. Right? You're like, it's never we never get it if we go from if we're just either end of the spectrum. We need to kind of be in the paradox and be able to hold the paradox or even collapse the paradox and generate something something new.
James Glover [00:47:20]:
So there's something really wonderful about that. But I'm also interested, like, what is this that what does this then mean now when you look forward and you're thinking more about the kind of the leaps of faith and the areas of impact and the work that you want to do. Like, there has been an evolution in this service of others and how and where you bring that to the world. What does it look like when you start to look forward? What's the next steps around this work and into the future for you?
Jeremy Stockdale [00:47:44]:
Yeah. That's a great question because I think, whilst I when I set up Wiley, it was never to, it was it was never to make money. I mean, I need to earn a living. But I do realize that if I wanted to have the impact that I wanted to have, which is is a seismic one on leadership and the impact that has, then I I need to be more expansive in my thinking about it, be much more strategic about how I run the business. I've also I started writing posts on LinkedIn about two years ago now under the heading on Wednesday to smash the patriarchy, and it started off because my daughter's got a T shirt that said on Wednesday to smash the patriarchy. So I persuaded us, let me do a post about her and her T shirt, and it got quite well received. So the following week, I followed I followed up by saying, oh, actually, here's all the ways that patriarchy impact women. The week after, I've phrased about how it impacts men, and I've just continued since then.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:48:32]:
And and what that's created, I do feel, is a little bit of a movement because the amount of people that are now engaged in my post compared to just two years ago has has risen exponentially. But the most beautiful thing is I think it's created a community, and I'm learning all the time, and we're learning from each other. So I feel that that's that's an opportunity that's being created that I need to leverage and think, so how can I now take that, which which provides people with insights and knowledge and a sense of community, but also a bit of hope in some cases because it's not just the same people talking about this? It's people people that look like me. How can we utilize that to actually make a real difference? And it's never been more important, bear in mind, what is happening in in The US and place like Afghanistan. And it's not as though we're an exemplar in The UK or in in in Western Europe. But, you know, the fact that the the progress we're making towards, gender equity has gone back in in the last year. You know, it was in 2023. We're a hundred and thirty one years away from gender equity, you know, and now it's a hundred and thirty four years.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:49:37]:
So we've actually actually gained backwards now. So there has to be some some big movements that take place to counteract what's happening and to accelerate progress. So I don't have all the answers, but I I really feel that I need to I perhaps need to be a little bit more provocative in what I'm doing, and I need to expand the message more widely and and get in organizations' faces a little bit more than I've done previously. So, yeah, I wanted to have a genuine impact. And and and I guess to counterbalance the people that are taking up all the airtime at the moment, you mentioned Trump, you mentioned Musk, you know, the, Andrew Tate. These these people who come in and they they they see a a blind spot and a weak spot, and they've made the most of it. Yeah. You know, I think about, you know, young men and boys, and the fact that they are feeling so disenfranchised is a tragedy.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:50:36]:
But what are we providing to them as an alternative? You know? And and so we need to provide more positive, you know, role models of of what being a man is, of a masculinity, of their place in the world. And and rather than division, create more unity in the way we talk about these things.
James Glover [00:50:54]:
Yeah. Massively. Like, I, just I feel like this element of our conversation may just kind of spawn into to a deeper conversation offline, actually, because there's there's the kind of the desire to create something more positive for for young men to aspire to and to be able to evolve into a future that feels more hopeful for everybody is just I think that is worthwhile life's work. So I think we should we should a % explore that off after the provocation of of, of this conversation. But I I guess, Jeremy, I just wanna I just wanna I wanna pause there actually and just kinda just thank you for for being willing to share openly about the wrestles that you've had about kind of finding purpose in the different things that you've done and where you've done it and how you've done it and just the extraordinary evolution that you can go through from being a banker to driving, you know, gender equity and the the kind of the agenda around that in the world. And and the wrestle between between focusing in on that in a professional context and yet, you know, it is your daughter who inspired a thing that's gonna create the movement and you knowing and seeing that actually I just was over indexing in one place for a while. And and I and that that wasn't what actually really felt purposeful to me in the in the kind of the broader context. And look where it's landed you.
James Glover [00:52:15]:
It's amazing. Absolutely amazing. So thank you for being willing to to share that and, and bring that to the Exarible Soul podcast. It's been awesome.
Jeremy Stockdale [00:52:22]:
It's been a real pleasure, James. Love talking to you, mate. And, yeah, we'd look forward to that offline conversation as well. Thank you.
James Glover [00:52:30]:
Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at theexcitablesoul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.