Episode #37 Emma Keith

Trust, Conflict, and Purposeful Leadership with Emma Keith

In this episode of The Excitable Soul Podcast, join me in conversation with Emma Keith, whose career journey within the Royal Air Force (RAF) is nothing short of extraordinary.

Emma's impressive trajectory led her to make history as the first woman to lead RAF officer training, achieving groundbreaking success. Now, as Commandant of the TEDR Academy of Leadership, she is shaping the future of coaching and mentoring within the RAF.

With a strong emphasis on unlocking human potential and a passion for leadership, Emma shares deeply personal experiences that have molded her sense of purpose.

In this episode, we cover:

The significance of small moments: While major life events shape us, Emma emphasises the power of smaller, everyday experiences that build our sense of purpose.

Authenticity in leadership: Emma highlights the challenges and rewards of leading as her true self, which has proven essential in her roles.

The balance of purpose across life: We discuss integrating work and life harmoniously, rather than viewing them as separate entities.

Making choices from hope, not fear: Emma advocates for decisions driven by hope, encouraging us to focus on positivity and potential.

Emma's insights serve as a reminder that purpose is not only found in grand gestures but also in the subtle, everyday moments that contribute to our personal and professional lives.

Tune in for an authentic conversation that spans responsibility, resilience, and the transformative power of understanding purpose.

Read the transcript here

James Glover [00:00:09]:

Alrighty. Welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.

James Glover [00:00:44]:

So let's get going, shall we? Hello, everybody. Today, we have Emma Keith with us. Emma's career has been anything but ordinary. She joined the RAF as an operations officer, graduating as a prize winning officer, and serving in The UK and overseas. In 2015, she made history as the first woman to lead RAF officer training, overseeing the welfare, training, and performance of all staff and cadets at the Royal Air Force College. Under her leadership, the college achieved the first ever triple outstanding rating from military officer training school, and she was recognized nationally as an agent of change. Now as commandant of the TEDR Academy of Leadership, Emma shapes the future of leadership coaching and mentoring across the RAF. A passionate advocate for human performance, she's an experienced executive coach, a qualified leadership instructor, and a trained mediator with 20 in conflict resolution.

James Glover [00:01:50]:

She's also diving deep into the relationship between trust and conflict in her PhD. Emma's all about unlocking potential for individuals, teams, and across the RAF itself. This is a truly authentic conversation spanning between deep leadership responsibility and transformative personal growth. Hope you enjoy. Okay, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to another episode of the Excitable Soul podcast. Today, we have Emma Keith with us. Emma, thank you so much for being with us today.

James Glover [00:02:20]:

Really appreciate it and looking forward to this conversation.

Emma Keith [00:02:22]:

No. You're welcome. It's lovely to be here.

James Glover [00:02:25]:

How's your day? I've noticed that you have a large cup of tea like I have a large cup of tea.

Emma Keith [00:02:29]:

I do. Yep. Cold coffee even at this time of day. I know you're not supposed to, are you, after lunch? But, do you know what? Some some days you need it. So yeah. Got the coffee on the go.

James Glover [00:02:39]:

Well, I don't know what it says about us that both of us are here Friday afternoon, in the afternoon, need look needing some kind of, like, warm fluid to keep us going.

Emma Keith [00:02:47]:

I don't know. Maybe we'll get to that.

James Glover [00:02:51]:

Yeah. Brilliant. Well, listen. We're really interested in being able to kind of explore your journey and where and how you find meaning and connection. The experiences that have kind of shaped those insights for you. And, not only just where and how do you understand them in your life now, but what might that mean for you in the in the future too. But I guess the kind of the the start point really is is kind of go back in time and working up to today. And just maybe asking, like, where where and how have you made sense of purpose in in your life? What are some of the moments that have really shaped who you are?

Emma Keith [00:03:24]:

I mean, it's clearly a huge question. And, it's really interesting because I think there's some really obvious ones that jump out, you know, huge moments that I guess lots of people can identify with, you know, birth of your children, you know, getting married, actually the loss of my parents. So I think some of those really big moments. But I think do you know what? My my purpose has also been built in the past by lot little things to you. And I think it's not until you sort of look back and reflect on them, you realize the impact that that you they had. So things like I was I was super lucky. I grew up, on the island of Guernsey. So beautiful, safe, you know, going to the beach after school for picnics.

Emma Keith [00:04:15]:

And do you know what? It's not until I've got older you suddenly realize how much things things like that have shaped you and how incredibly lucky I was to have those experiences. So, yeah, I think it's a real mix of of big moments and little moments. And the people, I think the, you know, the people that have been in my world, I guess.

James Glover [00:04:36]:

There's, there's something really magical straight away here of of being able to separate out, create a bit of granularity between, the kind of the immediate, almost reachable, elements of what shaped you, these kind of big significant moments with the with the the kind of the the power of the little things. So, you know, what was it about that kind of, that really safe, almost idyllic environment that you grew up in that when you reflect back on now, you're like, wow, that really has shaped my perspective on the world. That really has made me kind of see and, cultivate my worldview in the way that that I have it now.

Emma Keith [00:05:13]:

Yeah. Do you know what? I think so the the growing up in Guernsey part, so incredibly lucky at how safe it was. You know, I had independence from a really early age. You know, my parents could let me go off and do things. I could, you know, run around on the streets at a very young age, all of these things. But so I think the independence because of the safety, but I think also just that appreciation of the little things in life and the the smaller things. So, you know, to this day, I love the sea because, you know, that's where we went. That's how we relaxed was on the beach at the sea.

Emma Keith [00:05:47]:

So sort of that association with nature, that association with things that were important, and actually just a really relaxed way to grow up a slow pace of life where actually everything moved, you know, moved at a pace where as a child, it was, you know, that was magical. And I I sort of really feel it with my own children now that I can't or don't feel I'm giving them quite what I had. And I think, you know, the other thing that really shaped me interestingly was my grandparents. And, again, I don't think you realize that till you grow up. So my grandparents on my dad's side had very little in monetary terms. You know, they they sort of worked incredibly hard their whole lives. But you know, they were really proud people and they had like real standards and they were real family people. And again, I sometimes think to my work ethic now and I, and my granddad's sort of in my head, You know, because actually, yeah, you know, he his little house was always immaculate.

Emma Keith [00:06:51]:

His, you know, his courtyard, his he he looked after things. He worked hard. So I think your upbringing, you don't realize the impact it's had on you, do you, until later? And you, you know, something doing something like this makes you reflect back and you think about all those different influences and how they've impacted, I guess, who you've become.

James Glover [00:07:12]:

Yeah. Would you say there was, you know, kind of one person or certain moments within that that fear that stand out amongst others?

Emma Keith [00:07:23]:

Yeah. Two people actually that I would say if I'm allowed to say two. One is is my dad. So I lost him last year. So, you know, I I really miss him and he was somebody I really, really admired and respected. I mentioned that, you know, his his family, you know, had a hard time in many ways. And he he sort of grew up with this fantastic work ethic and this I don't know. Just he was one of these people who always did what he wanted to do and what he thought was right to do and didn't follow the crowd.

Emma Keith [00:08:03]:

Yes. I really, really admire that because I think it's harder to do than you realize. And the whole reason we ended up in Guernsey is because of that part of my dad. He he he did things and looked at the world in a different way, and I really, really admired that. And then somebody actually who was one of my first bosses at work actually had a huge impact on me. I was a very junior officer in the air force, and I may have had a little too much to drink and turned up late for my shift. And I was supposed to be there to see an, an aircraft out. I was supposed to be manning the Ops Room and seeing an aircraft out, and I had turned up late.

Emma Keith [00:08:47]:

And my boss was sat at the desk I should have been sat at when I walked in panicking that I was late. And he just looked at me, and I said, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry I'm late. And he said, don't worry, Emma. I left the bar before you and realized there was very little chance you'd be here this time in the morning. And he said, but don't worry. I am. And he just looked at me, and he said, you've played your joker.

Emma Keith [00:09:10]:

Go back to bed. Don't do it again. And in that moment, he taught me everything about leadership. He had seen that I was gonna fail. He taught me and made sure that there wasn't, you know, really bad consequences. He gave me a reprimand, and he earned my trust and loyalty all in one moment, and I never let him down again. So I always quote him when people say about who's the best leader and I'm like, you know what? Owen Cairns, my first flight Lieutenant when I was a baby flying officer.

James Glover [00:09:41]:

Yeah. Amazing. There's, I mean, there's so much in both of those. Like, we should just spend a little bit of time. And then the, the the kind of the the comment around your dad about not following the crowd and how that is more difficult than actually kind of going with the flow. I I'm I'm wondering what is it about that above all all else because almost you were talking about, like, there's obviously a work ethic. So there's a way in which he kind of applied himself to the things that that he was focused on. But there's something there about just this sense of character of, actually, I'm I'm not I'm I'm willing to try and find my own way, understand what I care about and what I think, and then follow that, like, what the impact of that has been for you?

Emma Keith [00:10:21]:

Do you know what? I think one of the reasons I admire it so much is because I find it really hard. So I think I've always intuitively and intrinsically been quite a people pleaser. And, you know, I find it really hard to upset people or say I don't wanna do something that somebody wants me to do. Or and and actually, that's something I've really struggled with throughout, I guess, my career and my life is almost to find what would I want to do because I can allow myself to be influenced by lots of external factors. And it's something I've really had to learn to manage. Whereas when I reflect on my dad's life and on the decisions he made and on the time I spent with him, he really didn't, he listened to other people don't get me wrong. He wasn't rude or he didn't want to hurt anybody. He listened to other people, but he, he always chose his own path.

Emma Keith [00:11:14]:

And because of that, I feel like he lived a really fulfilled and happy life. And an example would be, I remember him telling me he got a job working in the bank when he was sort of 17, I think it was. And he'd worked his way up. And somebody sort of said to him, you need to go to London. If you want to earn decent money, you know, you need to be going to London. And he was on the tube on his way to go to this interview in London that had sort of been told you really, this is the career step. And he said he just remembers standing on the tube, and it was all crowded and loads of people. And he just remembers really clearly thinking, I don't want to do this.

Emma Keith [00:11:52]:

He loved cycling, and he said, I just want to be on the cliff path somewhere cycling. And and that's what led to him, you know, moving and going to Guernsey. And I just think that having that clarity of what is right for you, even early on in your career, even when other people are advising you otherwise is is brave and courageous. And and I sort of am envious. I didn't inherit more of that naturally, and I've had to learn it from him, if that makes sense.

James Glover [00:12:24]:

Yeah. And and, again, I think there's something, really important here in in that there are people who seem to be kind of imbued with this sense of, meaning and significance that kind of gives them direction and course and confidence. And and there is also the opportunity to learn that, to figure that out, to kind of invest in it. So what's it been like for you reflecting, seeing that, and then thinking about, well, what does that mean for me? Where and how has it influenced potentially choices or just just even the way in which you kind of reflect on the choices that you've had?

Emma Keith [00:13:02]:

Yeah. Do you know what? In so many ways, I think, you know what? I have really, as I've got older, started to really recognize what makes me happy and what doesn't. And and by happy, I mean, truly happy versus surface happy. Because I think you can have surface happy, can't you, that can come across to other people. You can look at somebody and think, oh, that looks really successful. But actually you can't sleep or you feel a bit irritable or you don't feel quite right because actually it isn't really inside connecting. And I think as I've got older, I've learned much more that I want real happiness and contentment and peace with my choices. And I care much less.

Emma Keith [00:13:50]:

I wouldn't say I don't care at all. That would be lying because I think we all are on that journey. Right. But I care less and that has been really powerful for me. And I use that a lot in my reflection now is really trying to take the time now, is really trying to take the time to think about what what is the right decision here, listening to everyone, but then cutting out that noise.

James Glover [00:14:14]:

Yeah. I am I can completely relate in terms of, this kind of relentless need to meet external expectation. And and often and often those external expectations are projections. They're what I think, other people think, and then and then try and meet them, which is like, that's that's you losing twice. Right? You're both the both the victim and the perpetrator in equal measure.

Emma Keith [00:14:43]:

Exactly. And it's exhausting. And you know what? I'd also add on to that. You know, you say the external expectations. I also have my own internal expectations that are not healthy or right in the sense that I, you know, I have and still do sometimes hold myself to standards that are just not realistic, you know, or I, you know, I, you know, how can I not be, you know, doing even better at work or being even better as a mom or better as a a friend, and how can I not be even better as a partner? And and so there's these internal expectations as as well as external. And actually trying to work out and may maybe those internal are from external perceptions. Perceptions. Maybe there is a link there because maybe that pressure is coming externally.

Emma Keith [00:15:30]:

I feel like I internally drive it there as well if I'm honest. And I think cutting out that noise and really trying to work out what properly lands is is hard, isn't it? It's not as easy as it sounds. It is hard. But it's super worth

James Glover [00:15:50]:

The challenge of our time almost feels like, how how can I feel enough? You know, the language you were using there is really provocative. How can I be better at this and better at that and better at the other? And, actually, I, I was, speaking with another one of our our guests who, talks about value and worth. He's he's been a social he was a social worker for twenty two years and has set up a business that kind of supports children who are going into foster care. And he said that, if you are breathing, you have value. If you are breathing, you have worth. That's it. And I was like, what a profound definition of self worth. And what would happen if we could help more people just feel that? What would that then do to the drive to be better?

Emma Keith [00:16:41]:

Yeah. Absolutely. You know, and it is, I think for those people who've absolutely mastered that, it is so powerful. And, and I think I, you know, I have moments, you know, I, I would say right now I feel incredibly lucky because I'm in a job I enjoy, you know, I know that I'm super lucky in so many ways, and I have moments when I get what that feels like, that contentment. But I also, I guess, wanna be really honest with anyone listening in case that makes them feel bad that actually I have days when I feel like I'm utterly purposeless and I can't find meaning and I feel like I'm wasting my time with what I'm doing and I can feel really wretched about that because I think sometimes if I listen to people talking and they're talking about how they've mastered all this, that can equally make me feel bad. So I guess I just wanna be really honest in that, yeah, you know, I have moments and I try and hold on to those moments and capture them and pin them down. You know? But, you know, also, I have moments when actually I'm really leaning on my friends or my family or someone else to help help help reset you.

James Glover [00:17:45]:

Brilliant. Brilliant. Well, Wonderful. And and, again, it feels like there's a couple of things here. Like, one of those is about this sense of, not like, it's not gonna be like the the feel feeling shifts and changes and being able to acknowledge it when it is there and be able to hold it when it is there and to be grateful of it when it is there. But then also when it's not there, who are you looking to? Where where do you get the support? Because one of the questions I wanted to ask was, how do you how do you recalibrate? Because the you know, for all of us, there's there's there's just to be human. Right? So we're all gonna fall off the wagon at some point in time. So how do you recalibrate?

Emma Keith [00:18:22]:

Yeah. And I and I think that it's exactly that because, yeah, it isn't it's a linear journey in the sense of gaining more experience and wisdom, but it's not completely linear, is it? It goes up and down and it and it always will. How do I recalibrate? Do you know what? I think there is, you know, the really obvious ones, but friend, friends and family, but but real friends. So you can have lots of mates, can't you? And that's wonderful. And there's nothing wrong with all those, you know, your mates. But I guess when, you know, the last three years have been really tricky for me. I lost both my parents and my eldest daughter has been very unwell. And and whilst trying to hold down a busy job and all of those things, and, you know, being really honest, there's been moments in that that have been really, really tough.

Emma Keith [00:19:05]:

And I have realized though that I have friends that are like family. You know, they're not going anywhere. They're absolutely there for me. And if I ever doubt myself, they are my self confidence. You know? So if I, you know, when I was leaving the regular service or even now, I sort of think, well, what would I do after this contract ends when I leave this job? You know? What will happen? And and they're just my cheerleaders, and and they're the people that I just leave feeling great. But I've been utterly transparent about who I am. There's no pretense, and yet I feel great because I just know they love me, and I love them. And friendships like that are just worth the world.

Emma Keith [00:19:50]:

Aren't they? And I think as I've got older, I've learned that to really nourish those relationships.

James Glover [00:19:59]:

And you just said something, the word there, transparency, like I'm really transparent. They know they know who I am. So that sense of, do I need to be better for these people? No. No. I don't. So there's already, like, there's there's something here about what does it take for us to just be more authentic, be more open, just, you know, be like who we need to be in the world and be seen for that and be valued for that. Because when we are, like, what happens, what we get back is the magic.

Emma Keith [00:20:27]:

Yeah. So the two two two of my very best friends, we went on a girls' trip actually last summer, which as I said towards the end of this, you know, quite tricky time. And, we started on the beach with, like, right, what's the list of things we should be doing? And and then actually about ten minutes in, one of my friends said, this is ridiculous. Actually, we need to write a list of what we need to do less of. And we it was so funny. We all were, like, writing these lists about we need to stop this and we need to stop that. And we ended up with this huge list of all those things we were gonna do less of and that we needed more time. And rather than thinking, what do we need to do more of? It was like, no, stop, stop, you know? So, yeah, I think I think that is really important.

Emma Keith [00:21:06]:

And then I do think that you have to have it internally. You can't obviously just rely on external friends. So I think I have learned external friends. So I think I have learned strategies, you know, that help me, and everybody will have their own different strategies. Walking is really helpful for me. Being in nature, back to growing up in Guernsey, you know, I'll drive across to Norfolk and go for a walk along the beach. And something in that grounds me and connects me and just I think sometimes I need to be on my own to really think things through because of this being too influenced. So if it's a big decision, I perhaps go a little bit more on my own.

Emma Keith [00:21:46]:

If it's rebuilding myself worse, maybe it's a little bit more checking in with my friends, You know?

James Glover [00:21:51]:

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, you know, wonderful granularity in in that and kind of being able to understand where and what in order to be able to to to kind of access it, which I think for for lots of people that are acknowledging the struggle, like, I want to be like your dad. I want to have a fulfilled fulfilled life and to be really clear on, actually, if I'm just riding my bike on the cliff tops, I'm gonna have a happy life. That's okay. But, yeah, but in reality, I'm finding myself caught in a in in almost a melee of different sets of expectations coming from different places. And so how do I reset? How do I redefine? How do I reframe? How do I recalibrate? Actually, there's some stuff externally to me that's really important.

James Glover [00:22:35]:

There's some stuff internally. And, actually, I know which I need and when to some degree, which sounds which sounds really magical. Because, you know, if we just talk about leadership for a second, Emma, because, you know, you have held leadership roles your entire career. Like, you're you're the most junior role as as an RAF officer is still a leadership position. So you have been a leader for your entire, entire career in adult life to some degree. How does how does some of these learnings kind of play into the to to to your role as a leader in the organization that you've been a part?

Emma Keith [00:23:07]:

Yeah. It's a really brilliant question. And obviously, in my role at the moment, heading up leadership to the Air Force One, I, you know, I reflect on a lot because I have to reflect on my own leadership, but also how we cultivate the right leadership in our people going forward, not just officers, but our aviators, you know, that we want really amazing leadership across the service. So, actually, what is leadership? How do you how would you improve your own leadership? And how do you teach it are things that I think about all the time. From my personal perspective, I think, I have learned a huge amount around how to lead. And yet I still get it wrong on a daily basis. Don't we all? But I have really learned to try to be authentic to who I am, which I know is something everybody says. But actually, it's it's really important.

Emma Keith [00:23:54]:

I used to try and pretend to fit a mold of what I thought an RAF officer should look like. And, actually, I wasn't as good at that because I'm not somebody who shouts a lot or not that that is what an area RF officer does. It was just my perception, but I, you know, I I lead by communication. I lead by collaboration. I lead by talking things through with people, and then making the decisions that move it moving forward. But that's how the the air force gets the best out of my strengths. So that has been, you know, something that I've grown in confidence over that I I don't need to be somebody else. I can be myself.

Emma Keith [00:24:32]:

But I think you always reflect, don't you? So at the end of my command tour running officer training, I immediately wanted to do the job again because I would do it better. And, of course, you would, but you can't wipe out those things because they are the learning journey. And if I hadn't gone through them, I hadn't experienced them. I I wouldn't have learned as I went along. We had a major change program while I was there, and it was painful. It was painful for the people that were there. It was painful for me. It was really tricky, but I learned a huge amount that has now been helpful to me.

Emma Keith [00:25:09]:

And interestingly, I've had some great conversations with people who were in my team at that time. So I think I think there is something about really knowing yourself. I don't believe you can lead others unless you can lead yourself. And I break leading yourself kind of into two parts. So the first part of leading yourself is self awareness, really, really knowing who you are, shadow behaviors and best behaviors. And then actually you then have to look at the self management part of leading yourself because a lot of people sort of hold self awareness up as the holy grail. Actually, if you do nothing with that, it's not, you know, I could say, well, actually, you know, that I know that when I'm under pressure, I, I get a bit aggressive, great self awareness doesn't help my team if I don't change anything. And I think people forget about that self management, and that the more senior we get sort of the bigger the shadow that we can cast with our behaviors, all the light, if it's good, if it's positive.

Emma Keith [00:26:13]:

So back to your original question of, that journey of learning about yourself, about your purpose, about why you're showing up absolutely ties into whether it makes you a better leader, because you can own your behaviors. You understand why you're there, and then you can help try and cultivate that in other people.

James Glover [00:26:34]:

Yeah. Massively. And there's something, there's something really powerful here about the the the kind of the one two punch of awareness and management, awareness and regulation. Like, the the all of it comes down to choice at some level, doesn't it? Which is who am I who am I choosing to be and how am I choosing to behave, and what am I what am I anchoring all of that in? Am I being highly reactive in the moment, or am I doing this with some level of intention? And, and that the the the the language around I'm I'm leaning through a place of authenticity is one of those where you go, okay. What does that really look like in terms of being able to activate it? And I guess I'm I'm curious about the moments that helped you really bed in that sense of confidence. Oh, it's okay for me to be like this. It's okay for me to do it this way and see that playback. What does that look? Because it you I can imagine that people are listening going, I want to do more of that, but I'm frightened.

James Glover [00:27:33]:

At one level or another, there is a sense of, will I be exposed? Will I be good enough? Will I be kicked out of here? Will I be allowed to belong anymore? So what were the things that really helped you embed the confidence?

Emma Keith [00:27:44]:

There's a few a few examples that I would say, and one actually is sorry to keep going back to my lovely dad. Maybe I'm beginning to realize he had more of an influence on me than I realized. When I got the chance to take the job running officer training, so I was the first female to do that job, which is not something I mentioned very often really because in my mind, in many ways, it's it's really irrelevant. I was an air force officer doing the job. But the only bit that I would say was different was I was the first primary carer of young children. So actually, had a man been a primary care of two young children, to be honest, they would have had really similar challenges to me. So that felt more of a difference than my gender was my circumstances. But I was going into that job off the back of my second maternity leave.

Emma Keith [00:28:29]:

And I was honestly just I was I had a moment of absolute fear. I was scared because all I could hear in my head was the Peppa Pig themed gene and I'm having to go in. Right? And be, you know, in charge of officer training where you're, like, the role model for the officers, you know, for for what what you are.

James Glover [00:28:48]:

That's the that's like the custodian of Yeah. REF soul, isn't it? Like like, how do you imbue that? How do you bring that, cultivate that, nurture all of that? Yeah.

Emma Keith [00:28:58]:

I was absolutely terrified. And, you know, I was terrified of the cadets, which is clearly not a great start. I was terrified of the staff because I was like, oh my god. They're all so good at what they do, and they're gonna wonder why I'm in charge. And the person I took over from, you know, not the immediate one actually, but the one who'd not been there for that long, but the one before was sort of a very tall, very, you know, loud, sort of very different to me. Lovely, lovely man, by the way. Absolutely lovely, but really different to me. So I was I had this moment of sheer panic, and I remember going home and actually talking to my parents and talking to my dad and saying, I'm I'm terrified.

Emma Keith [00:29:35]:

You know? I think I'm gonna have to pull out. I don't think I can do it. I'm going back off maternity leave. That's scary enough going back to work anyway, full time into this job. And I've got a toddler. I literally can't do it. And my my dad sorta pulled me a few glasses of red wine and and sorta said, I don't know your world. I have never worked in the military or the air force.

Emma Keith [00:29:55]:

He said, but the only observation I'd make is if they wanted somebody like your predecessors, they've got more choice of that than they have of you. So it feels like a really intentional choice that they want something different. So I don't think it's just happened. Maybe they want to they want difference. They want it to be different. So don't go in and then try and be like the people that went before because it's an intelligent organization that has made a choice. So, you know, don't let them down on that choice. And I was kinda like, okay.

Emma Keith [00:30:28]:

Fine. You know, for for good or bad, you're getting me. And and, and so I think that was a real moment of, oh, okay. Maybe I didn't just stumble here. Maybe my background, my experience, maybe I've actually been selected rather than inadvertently finding myself in this position. And so that that was really powerful, I think, for me. Definitely. But then actually, I guess another moment that really helped was with my team.

Emma Keith [00:30:54]:

I remember apologizing one night when I'm running out because I had to go and pick my my kids up and there was a lot going on at work. My husband was away. I I had to leave. And I remember saying to them sort of the next day, I'm so sorry that I have to keep leaving to go and get my children. I'm really conscious of the impact on you. And I could see them all sort of half smiling. I thought, that's interesting. Why are they smiling? Are they literally laughing at me? And they said, mum, we love it.

Emma Keith [00:31:22]:

It gives us permission. And we're allowed a life. And we also have children. Yes. We're dads, but we have kids we wanna see. You know? Yes. We're this or, you know, another mom's like, oh, yes. Or or, actually, if they haven't got kids, do you know what? I'd love to make hockey practice or I'd love to go and see my friends or and so they were like, actually, we love it.

Emma Keith [00:31:40]:

So don't don't apologize. And, again, it was one of these other moments where you go, oh, something I saw as a negative, they actually liked because I was being forced to show it. They could go, okay. She's doing it. I can leave and pick my kids up and that's okay. So I think I think it's just noticing those moments and learning that they have more impact. And also looking upwards, you know, there's people I've worked for that I have really, really admired, and I think I've gained confidence from their belief in me. So I think, and that's something I'm super keen to pass on.

Emma Keith [00:32:20]:

So I can think of a couple of people who I've worked for and actually one very senior female I worked for who just had really showed belief in me in a really visible way. And that was really, powerful for my confidence that she believed in me, actually. So I tried to pass that on to other people, you know, male or female.

James Glover [00:32:41]:

How did how did they do that? How did they demonstrate belief in you and and make you feel like that's that's where they were at?

Emma Keith [00:32:49]:

Yeah. Do you know what? Just calling for my voice in meetings, making it really clear that they valued my opinion. You know, actually, when when the job I'm in now came up sending me the advert and saying, I hope you're applying, you know, just just lots lots of small things that showed that she believed in me and and advocated for me publicly. You know? And, and she was somebody who I did and still find incredibly impressive. And so I think back to that self worth on those moments when you're doubting yourself, if there's somebody you really respect who shows that to you, that can have quite a big impact. And equally, I've had an amazing well, I've had lots of amazing male bosses, you know, who have really helped develop my confidence as well. And given me honest feedback about where I should improve to. So I think that's why I think mentoring, coaching, all of these things are really important because they they help embed it.

Emma Keith [00:33:55]:

But yeah. So there's lots of little moments I think that I could pick up, but those two, I guess, would be two that jump out.

James Glover [00:34:02]:

Yeah. And the there's, the kind of the picture that you're building in my mind, my, like, dyslexic visual brain, is kind of almost building this, like, web of connectivity. Like, I'd kinda see you in the middle of this, and, actually, what what you're really describing is where does the the kind of the meaning is cultivated in multiple different places and multiple different interactions, multiple different experiences, and actually, not all of them massive. Some of them actually really quite small. But there is an interconnected nature like there is in the in the in in in the web. And being able to kind of almost step back and be able to see the web. There's a there's a there's a then a different lens to be able to view, like, the experiences that you're having at any given moment, which which I guess provides two things. One is a kind of a validation.

James Glover [00:34:48]:

I'm okay. And, also, if I'm not okay, I know where to go to be okay. Here's here's some input, insight, perspective that's gonna be really useful for me because, actually, I understand that if I'm just going through the loop in my own head, then then I probably need to be able to disrupt that in the most positive way. And it feels like you've been on this journey of kind of building the web and seeing the web.

Emma Keith [00:35:13]:

Yeah. I, I do know what I completely agree with that. And I think that web is also your resilience, isn't it? Because that web is all those little connections, all those networks. It's, it's not just one thing. It's, it's all of these things coming together. And I think one other thought that just struck me though, then when you were talking as well, that I think has been really important for me, as I mentioned at the beginning, you know, I, I sort of have this intrinsic desire to be liked. And, and actually that, that has in the past made me find it difficult to make tough decisions or give people tough information or, you know, or feedback they perhaps needed. I've shied away from it.

Emma Keith [00:35:46]:

And that's definitely been something I've had to learn to do. But on the being liked bit, it's really interesting because as I've got older, it's more important to me that I like myself. And I have really learned that over the journey with my parents and my daughter in the last three years, that actually I need to go to sleep at night thinking I have conducted myself in a way that I like myself and I can get success in other areas and have hurt people or done things or whatever. And I won't like myself and I won't sleep and I won't feel good. And I think that's been that's, you know, it's quite a big thing to say. And actually, you know, like, I mentioned officer training and the change program, and it was really tough. And I was reflecting on it not that long ago, and there was somebody who was in my team who I felt like I didn't look after them quite as well as I should. And, actually, I reached out to them and apologized quite reasonably recently, and they sent me a lovely message back.

Emma Keith [00:36:46]:

But for some reason, it felt important to me to say that that I didn't look after you like I should, and I didn't protect you as much as I should have done at the time. So, yeah, so I think that that kind of wanting to like myself and feel that I have conducted myself in a way that I genuinely have self respect is really anchored to my self worth now. You know, and, and with my parents, you know, losing them, caring for them, caring for my daughter. I remember saying to my sister, I want to be able to look back at this time and be proud of how we conducted ourselves. You know, I want us to have done the right thing, you know, in everything, in how much we prioritize them over work, in in how we dealt with things, how we organize things. And we both felt that I think, my sister and I both felt like we wanna look back and know we conducted ourselves in a way we're proud of. That was really important.

James Glover [00:37:44]:

And thank you, Emma, because the you can just hear in the the kind of the the the tone of your voice and the kind of the shift here around, actually, it's as much now important for me to, to want to like me. Like, that statement in its own right is, you know, is massive, and you can hear the kind of journey of of getting to that. And I guess, I'm then really curious about how do you how do you do that in a way that serves you rather than a way that could potentially be a a stick? You know, when you when you when you try to reflect and ensure that you're going to bed in a way that enables you to go to sleep, that, you know, the bits that feel like they're actually helping you grow and create calm and peace around those things versus, you know, not.

Emma Keith [00:38:31]:

Yeah. No. It's a really great question. Picking out the bits that matter, isn't it? Against, again, against all this noise. So it's not beating yourself up. It's thinking, you know so say say with the example the work the lady I apologized to because I didn't feel like I looked after her now. There's loads of reasons why I didn't. I had two young children.

Emma Keith [00:38:53]:

I was busy. I was stressed. You know, I was trying to look after myself and survive. You know? I and so I'm kind enough to myself to see why I didn't. But, actually, I had never said to her, I'm sorry I didn't have as much time for you as I'd have liked. That was kind of what I was trying to say with in a perfect world, I'd have taken you for more coffees and given you space to look after you. So I think, like you said, it's not beating yourself up. It's not saying, you know, I'm awful.

Emma Keith [00:39:23]:

I did that wrong. You know, all of those mistakes, all of those things that we've done are part of who we are, and they're part of how we learn. I think it's now just cutting through the noise to what really matters to me, what what really counts to me. I've got limited energy. I've got limited time. So where am I gonna place it to have most impact, you know, for my life and for those people around me that I care about or I'm charged with looking after, you know, who I care about too, but, you know, professionally as well. Yeah. Where do you place that energy in cutting cutting through the noise? I think I think that's it.

Emma Keith [00:40:00]:

And I think it's focusing on the good and the bad and accepting that we will all have shadow behaviors. We will all do things wrong. It's how quickly you can return yourself to best self behaviors, how quickly you can own that and try and turn it into a productive situation, and just not wasting your energy on things that don't matter.

James Glover [00:40:22]:

Yeah. Letting it go. This, like, this principle of cutting through the noise feels really important. You you mentioned that earlier in the conversation too. And, I'm wondering how how purpose serves you as an anchor in that to help you be able to go, actually, no. This is what's important. Therefore, I can let go, as you say, of those other things. Because this is another thing.

James Glover [00:40:46]:

Right? You'll hear that on lots of different, within different books or within different podcasts or different programs or different influences. Like, oh, just the stuff you've gotta let go of. And you're like, yeah. Great. How easy is it to actually let go of stuff? So how does purpose serve you in the kind of the letting go and the minimizing of the noise?

Emma Keith [00:41:02]:

Yeah. So it's really helpful. And actually some of the exercises I've done with you in some of the sessions that we've that we've had have genuinely been really helpful, you know, thinking forward to forward in life and looking back and thinking about what what would you be saying to yourself? What would you want life to look like? You know, what would you have done if you feel that you've had a life well lived? You know, things phrases like that are are really powerful to sort of force your thinking. But I think purpose is has been incredibly important in working out what noise to cut out and what to hold on to. And it and it's interesting because there's the obvious ones. There's my family, you know, are incredibly important. They are a sense of purpose. But I've also got over the guilt of saying that my work gives me a sense of purpose, because it really does.

Emma Keith [00:41:48]:

It makes me a better parent, it makes me a better friend, a better partner, I enjoy my work. And I know I'm really lucky to be able to say that I do I really, really enjoy it. And I get a lot from it. So I don't feel guilt about saying that my work gives me a sense of purpose. And actually, a lot of people talk about work life balance. And I don't really like that phrase. Actually. I like to think about work life integration because I think you're getting it wrong.

Emma Keith [00:42:16]:

If you say, well, I'm going to go to work. And then as soon as that's finished, my life will start. You know, so I have my life in the evenings and the weekends. And when I retire, my life will start. You know? I'll I'll do what I want to do. That feels for me a really, unhealthy is the wrong word, but not as purposeful as productive as your life could be. Actually, if you can reframe that, like, work is part of your life and actually make it a productive, happy part of your life. So, actually, I love going to the office and seeing my colleagues.

Emma Keith [00:42:48]:

I work with some brilliant people who perhaps I might not naturally, they're not the same age as me or the same kids the same age as me. I might not meet them if I wasn't in that work environment. Actually, I learned so much from them. You should hear some of the conversations in our office. They're hilarious from, you know, the environment to politics to what you should do with your children to you know, you name it. We have that conversation. I mean, literally everything and really diverse just opinions and perspectives on stuff. And I've genuinely kind of come home with completely changed views on something political or going on in the world because, you know, couple of the team members have been ranting about something and getting at me and read this book and you know? And I and so yeah.

Emma Keith [00:43:30]:

So I think I'm I'm over my guilt about work, and I've fully accepted and owned to my children. I really love what I do, and it's it's it's not that I love that more than you. You know, of course, I don't. I love you utterly. But, actually, my work's important for me, and it makes me show up in a better way. So I think I think that bit is quite important because I think a lot of people demonize work. And then the other part, I guess, as well around, purpose is just being really honest about what matters to you. So we all talk about success, but like what is success? You know, it's completely fair and appropriate that for some people that might be status and position and money.

Emma Keith [00:44:13]:

If that's true, own it. Don't don't shy away from it. That is true. That is your route to success. And but but accept the consequences that come with that. Right? Like, own it. You know? I think when I'm say if I'm coaching somebody and they're sort of saying, well, I, you know, I really need more time for my family. I need more of this, but, you know, I'm thinking of taking this promotion.

Emma Keith [00:44:34]:

Well, that's when I'm kind of going, okay, but there's a gap that there's a disconnect in what you're saying you want and what you're doing, and you need to bring them together. So they're all fine. Whatever you want to do, so long as it's not deliberately hurting anyone else or illegal, is fine. But you need to own it and be honest about it with yourself and with those around you and take the consequences. So I think my sense of purpose, I've got much better at knowing what makes me happy and stop looking at what's making everybody else happy. Because I realized quite a while ago that I could decide I'm gonna follow their strategy because it's making them happy, and then discover actually they're not happy at all when you get on a bit. And and you think they've got the the the strategy and you're like, oh, they're doing it right. I'm doing it wrong.

Emma Keith [00:45:22]:

I'm gonna do that. They're not and you find out they're not. So stop following everybody else. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and run your own race and figure out what's right for you and be really honest about that with yourself first and then with everyone around you would be where I would go.

James Glover [00:45:41]:

The I'd like the the power of this, for me, Emma, and and, you know, the kind of the word of authenticity and being authentic is it's a big term. Right? So it's a really big term, and it's kind of late laden or loaded either way with with kind of connotation. And, actually, the the the heart of it that you're talking to here is this sense of personal honesty. Like, actually, if if you're trying to show up authentically in the world, the first thing you need to do is be honest with yourself and, and critically take ownership of some stuff. Because yeah. Big time. And I and, we're really, really good at, like, justifying literally anything and especially to ourselves. No.

James Glover [00:46:22]:

I don't need that bit. Yeah. You do need that bit of cake because, yes, Christmas may be over and you've started some, started some new habits, but we're still in January, so it's okay. February is just around the corner. And that's, like, one micro example that's happening multiple times in the day, let alone the big stuff that actually if you allow it into your soul could be quite confronting or could be quite painful. But I think what I'm hearing you say is that there's no shame in that. There's no shame like, whatever it is, there doesn't need to be some kind of shame attached. It just requires you to be honest about what that might then mean.

James Glover [00:46:58]:

Like, what might be the things you get, but what might be the cost associated? And that's life.

Emma Keith [00:47:02]:

And that we all have strengths and weaknesses, don't we? So there's parts of myself that I, you know, I wish I wish were better. But actually if I didn't have those parts I probably wouldn't have my strengths, you know, that whole saying about, you know, your greatest sort of, weaknesses are your strengths overplayed, you know, and and I really believe that. So you can't often have your strengths without the weaknesses, you know, so accepting who you are and accepting that those other people that you think are amazing are not they are amazing. Sorry. They are amazing, but they're not perfect. They will have their own strengths and weaknesses too, and they will be getting stuff wrong behind the scenes. So there's something about just giving yourself permission to be okay for who you are. You know? It's okay.

Emma Keith [00:47:46]:

This is who I am now. I'm, you know, kind of accepted it. This is where I am. How do I live the best life owning who I am? This is who I am. And I can improve myself, and I can educate, and I can do all these things, but, fundamentally, this is who I am. So, you know

James Glover [00:48:01]:

And and what there's liberation in that. Right? The this is the irony, isn't there? Like, that actually, when you do that, you feel freer. You feel a greater sense of control, feel a great sense of confidence, which are all often the things that you are worried about losing or worrying about trying to maintain a level of control over something else that you don't have right now. But the irony being you do all of these things and all of a sudden, I can breathe. I can open myself. I there's you know, I'm more expansive. Yeah.

Emma Keith [00:48:31]:

Yeah. No. It's huge. And I think that word control is really interesting, isn't it? Because I think I think if one of the things that I struggle with, is having the confidence to not fill my life. So I overfill. Like, I am constantly busy, constantly doing things. And I think for me, the the bravest thing is almost to stop and allow that space in. And it feels really uncomfortable.

Emma Keith [00:48:58]:

And I think about, like, making the decision to leave the regular service when I left the regular service and moved to reserves. You know, a huge part of that was terrifying because I'd spent a long time building my career, you know, really excited about where I was going. I was sort of on this train and it was going somewhere. And taking yourself off it is really, really hard. But actually, so many things that are good in my world now wouldn't have happened if I hadn't. So that, you know, but yeah, I think for me, not doing things feels braver sometimes than doing things.

James Glover [00:49:32]:

Yeah. Amazing.

Emma Keith [00:49:33]:

Yeah.

James Glover [00:49:33]:

Amazing. So I'm wondering what this what this kind of, clarity around purpose and this kind of web that you've been able to build and see and be able to interact with means when you look forward into the future. How do you think it's gonna kinda serve you going into the unknown?

Emma Keith [00:49:49]:

Yeah. So I just need to not get trapped in that web, don't I? My figurative web. Make sure it says, how is it gonna set?

James Glover [00:49:56]:

I'll tell you what, ecosystem. Call it an ecosystem rather than a web. Right? And and and I I guess sorry. Just like, I'm I'm I'm interrupting my own question, but there's something that you were talking about before. It kind of come back to me in this kind of sense of balance and integration around life and this and ecosystem's way better than web in that, you know, if you think about ecosystem in nature, you have multiple different species all coexisting in the same space, and the aim is to create a level of harmony in that environment where everything thrives. Like, not one thing dominates because if it does, at some point, the resources disappear and it becomes extinct extinct. So you have to kind of find the the equilibrium in all of that. And so, yeah, let's scratch web.

James Glover [00:50:42]:

Let's hold let's hold the ecosystem of connections. Yeah.

Emma Keith [00:50:46]:

So do you know what? And again, you know, I've learned things from from your sessions. I remember you talking about kind of athlete and that, you know, they're not at peak performance the whole time. You know, they're they're training for an event, and then they have the recuperation times. And and I found that really interesting because, obviously, in work, you don't have such obvious peak moments. You don't know when the peaks are gonna come. You don't know, you know, when's the recovery because, actually, I don't know where that is, you know. So I think looking forward, I have learned that the recovery is not it's not only important. It's vital not just to look after yourself, but, actually, to make yourself better at work because you you kind of become refreshed.

Emma Keith [00:51:26]:

So I think I think that balance across your whole life that we just talked about or that integration, but making sure that you are giving weight, you know, to to the right things at the right time. Now there might be certain times when that weight is completely skewed, like for me when my daughter was sick. You know what? That that was all that mattered. Genuinely, nothing else mattered, you know, and quite rightly. And then, you know, fingers crossed, we're moving forward into a better space. And then actually that that equilibrium can come back and a bit more weight can go back into work, or I might be able to go out for a drink with some friends and and bring that side of my life back up to to the level. You know? So I think going forward, I really want to make sure I retain my appreciation for that wonderful ecosystem I've created and that and actually drawing on the resilience of all the people I've met, the the lessons I've had, and and, you know, keeping that going forward. And I just really want to make sure that I'm making the right decisions for the right reasons, and really sort of recentering myself when I'm making them.

Emma Keith [00:52:35]:

And I think I want to it's kind of a subtle shift, but I think it's an important one. I want to make sure that I'm making choices from a position of hope and what I want, not from a position of fear. Because I think I I have in the past made decisions because I'm scared. You know? So I'm I'm scared of something. I'm scared of having that gap or not having a job, or I'm scared of what I don't know is out there, so I'm gonna do this. I think if I could give a wish for myself that it's something to work on, it's like really, really trying to make those decisions because of what I want to do and, you know, not because I'm scared of what would happen or wouldn't happen if I didn't do that. Does that make sense? I don't know if I explained that very well.

James Glover [00:53:22]:

I I love this idea of of, making decisions based on hope rather than fear or being able to use hope as a, as a kind of a boundary for decision making rather than fear because it's it's really easy, isn't it, and natural and human to kinda go, what might be the consequences? Right. Terrified. Not gonna do that. And and actually, do we go, what what's the hopeful perspective here? What's the hopeful opportunity here?

Emma Keith [00:53:50]:

Yeah. And my military friends would be laughing at me going, hope is not a strategy, which I get.

James Glover [00:53:58]:

It can be a philosophy.

Emma Keith [00:53:59]:

It can be a philosophy. It can be a mindset. So yeah, but exactly what can I what could I gain? And, you know, and I and I think we forget. So sometimes when I worry about things, so like, you know, worry about money or all these really human things to worry about that people worry about. But you sometimes forget what you're giving up. And I a really, really wise person said something in a talk a long time ago that really stuck with me. And I'm again, it's another thing I'm on a blooming journey about. But, was they they said don't trap yourself with capitalism.

Emma Keith [00:54:35]:

And by that, what they meant was don't trap yourself with, like, I don't know, buying so much stuff that you've got to keep working to keep paying for it. Don't buy stuff you don't need that then takes your life and time away from you. And so, again, I think that's something I'm really thoughtful about now is actually how do I even on a practical level, how do I manage things like money so that I have choices and I don't feel trapped by the choices I've made? Just probably quite, I don't know. We're British, aren't we? It's uncomfortable to talk about money. But it but it, but I think a lot of fear comes from places like that. And I think we're not honest about that enough that a lot of your security, your worries, your, you know, come from those kind of things. But when I left the air force, I had to sort of write a list of what when I left the regular service, it was like, what did I need versus what did I want? And those two lifts were quite different.

James Glover [00:55:41]:

Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. And, again, the thing that's just landing really strongly with me is this sense of, understanding the deeper meaning that's associated with what's driving some of the fear. So, you know, there's a, like alright. We might not talk about money, but what are we really talking about? What we're talking about is security. Safety. Big time.

James Glover [00:56:02]:

And so if we can be a bit more open about talking about safety and security and what does that really what do I need in order to be able to feel safe and secure? Then all of a sudden, you are able to go into a more hopeful territory because more things are possible because you've gone, oh, actually, if I square that away, then everything else is a choice. Everything else is positive.

Emma Keith [00:56:21]:

Yeah. And and that is such a I mean, you know, of course, it's a privileged position, isn't it, to be in if you feel safe. And I think, but that safety is really important because it's not, it's not just safety in terms of money and, and physical safety, but it's also safety in your relationships. It's confidence in your relationships. Isn't it? And, and I think if you're lucky enough to to feel safe in all of those areas, that is really powerful. And actually when you're not, and there's loads of people probably listening who won't feel that at the minute, you know, might be having challenges in relationships and things. It's, that's a really unsettling time. And I think it's just trying to really think about how do you make yourself feel safe with your choices.

Emma Keith [00:56:59]:

And how do you find your own purpose if things are challenging, you know, or you're having a tricky time, how do you bring yourself back to that place of feeling safe so that your choices can feel proactive and not defensive.

James Glover [00:57:12]:

Amazing.

Emma Keith [00:57:12]:

Not easy.

James Glover [00:57:13]:

No. Not easy. Not easy at all. And I think that's just the perfect place for us to kind of pause this conversation. There's just been so much richness in your kind of experience and you being so open to sharing about the kind of the wrestle and the struggle and the kind of the interconnectedness of how you kind of build those experiences and pay attention to them. But, also, what does that mean for the future and this just sense of, the the importance of safety, but where hope plays a role in all of that, I think is incredibly powerful. So thank you massively for being with us. It's been awesome.

Emma Keith [00:57:48]:

You're welcome. Lovely to chat to you.

James Glover [00:57:52]:

Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at theexcitablesoul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.