Episode #36 James & Rebecca
The Wrestle of Perfectionism Versus Meaningful Purpose with James and Rebecca
Welcome back to another episode of The Excitable Soul Podcast.
In today's episode, we are graced with the delightful presence of returning guest Rebecca Irving. Rebecca's vibrant energy and wisdom make her a popular figure among our listeners, and she's back to share more insights from her journey of purpose discovery
If you're passionate about discovering your true purpose and connecting the dots that lead to a meaningful life, keep listening! In this episode, we dive deep into the journey of understanding purpose, the challenges of aligning with it, and the joy of transformation.
Together we cover:
1 - Uncovering Purpose
2 - The Hard Work Begins
3 - Misalignments and Re-Alignments
4 - Armour vs. Authenticity
5 - Perfectionism and Self-Compassion
This is a heartfelt conversation about the beauty and complexity of living a purpose-driven life. We inspire listeners to embrace their authentic selves, face challenges with courage, and practice self-compassion.
By living intentionally, we are reminded that it's not about perfection but about being present and true to who we are. For more insights and to explore your own sense of purpose, be sure to check out The Excitable Soul’s Purpose Immersion Programs at The Excitable Soul.
Remember, you're not alone on this journey. We're all in this together, discovering and living our unique purposes, one day at a time!
Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:44]:
So let's get going, shall we? Alright, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to the excitable soul podcast. We have Rebecca Irving with us again. Hey, Bec.
Rebecca Irving [00:00:58]:
Whoop whoop. Hey.
James Glover [00:01:02]:
We we
Rebecca Irving [00:01:02]:
Bring in the energy.
James Glover [00:01:03]:
We we mentioned last time that we was gonna stop, potentially doing a bit of a regular guest spot for, for Rebecca. Because, apparently, she goes down really well with the audience. Like, that's the nothing that that I need to become aware of. My ego doesn't like that kind of, competition. But but here it is. We've gotta give the people what they want, Rebecca.
Rebecca Irving [00:01:25]:
I just like to think that I keep your competitive edge going. The sibling rivalry is what brings out the best in you.
James Glover [00:01:31]:
Oh, man. The sibling rivalry with you is totally real. Like, we we spent some time together over the weekend. We played chess. You battered me twice. Twice. Then I Twice. And then and then and then our brother came over and got involved, and then it just became a whole another thing.
James Glover [00:01:46]:
And it turns out you've been having lessons, Cheat.
Rebecca Irving [00:01:49]:
No. Now shall we shall we let's just be clear about that. I went off of
James Glover [00:01:54]:
Have you or have
Rebecca Irving [00:01:54]:
you ever done
James Glover [00:01:55]:
a grand tuition?
Rebecca Irving [00:01:57]:
No. No. Not by real people. There's no way. I went off of the street still, and I forgot to cancel my membership and ended up spending quite a lot of money on an app, and I've been playing some games. It's not my fault if you haven't been training.
James Glover [00:02:11]:
So let me just rephrase this in a slightly different way. On your app, do you get coached? Do they teach you how to play strategically?
Rebecca Irving [00:02:18]:
Yes.
James Glover [00:02:19]:
There you go. Alright. Let's move on. So, yeah, the competitive edge is real. We we thought that it might be a good area of conversation today to, I guess, like, bust a little bit of a myth, actually, around kind of purpose and purpose work. And this has come up in a few of the conversations that we've had with our guests on the Exiled Soul podcast. Sammy Burt and Annalee Howling, to to name just, to name just two, which is, you know, the kind of the the work that's required to be able to identify your sense of purpose actually really is just the beginning. It's like it's it's kind of the the easy bit.
James Glover [00:03:01]:
It's the bit that most people before they start this journey are like, wow. What would it be like if I could really connect to something like that? And then you do it and you go, oh, shit. There's a whole load of stuff now that I can't ignore. Oh god. I've got to kinda wrestle with. And people don't see that or sit with that or think about that, but, you know, some of our guests have spoken about it in in in the podcast. So we thought maybe it might be worth us just kind of having a bit of a a conversation around that, really. Once you've understood oh, sorry.
James Glover [00:03:29]:
Should I say uncovered your sense of purpose, the real work of actually understanding what that then means for you. What do you reckon, Bec? Does that sound like a a good place for us to get into conversation?
Rebecca Irving [00:03:42]:
Absolutely. Because that's that's when you're actually starting to make a difference, isn't it? You have this this moment of awakening where suddenly all of these experiences that you've been telling in your stories sort of make sense of something that's always been in there, and you discover it and you're like, I've transcended. You're like, I've got it. You're like, what do I do now? Like, now that I have had this enlightened this this enlightened moment where I understand myself a bit better, right, now is the whole world gonna be different? No. It isn't. It's it's what you do with that, isn't it, I suppose?
James Glover [00:04:14]:
Yeah. Exactly.
Rebecca Irving [00:04:15]:
Which is, like, the hard work, but the exciting bit and where you start seeing transformation. It's the the wrestle. Yeah. So it's it's like how does that come about, and how how how do you do it?
James Glover [00:04:29]:
Yeah. Because I think there was a there was a couple of points of reference for us at the Exile Soul when we started to design this work, And and especially this kind of element of the work, which was, we're all massive fans of Brene Brown, and Brene Brown has done a huge amount of research into to kind of wholehearted living and what that looks and feels like. And so she was a real source of inspiration for us, wasn't she, when we were kind of going, if now we've uncovered the things that have real meaning to us, where we can't help but see that there's a misalignment between the way in which you made sense of the word previously or the things that you gave meaning or assigned meaning to previously, and now the lens that you're looking through the word the through the word within. And so Bernie Brown's kind of frame around whole hard hearted living was really useful for us to go, oh, how do we help people calibrate the gap? Like that and understand that. And the second bit was, was kind of chief motivator, and chief energizer Tony Robbins, basically just turning around and say, well, look, nothing in life has meaning until you assign it meaning, which I think, again, was a really, important design principle for us because within that, there is choice. And often, we don't necessarily feel like we have choice in in life, where we're almost constantly reacting to the situations that we find ourselves in when in in when in actual fact, we have far more influence over what we pay attention to and what we care about than than really we ever give ourselves credence for. And so between those two things, this sense of evidence based wholehearted living and this kind of truth around, well, meaning is something that we can consciously assign, but also unconsciously assign. And so how do we unpick the difference between those two things? That became then the kind of the foundation for our work in this area, wasn't it, in terms of helping people start to see where's the gap?
Rebecca Irving [00:06:26]:
Yeah. And I think I think both of those things are huge. So, like, uncovering what what your what your purpose is is this sort of like like we've talked about, this huge enlightening moment. And then at the same time, then figuring out, well, if that's if that's like an anchor with which I can sort of study myself and and and figure out each move, what have I been doing up to that? Like, because I wasn't aware of it before. So, like, what how did I make my decisions before? Like, if I'm saying I do things mostly on gut instinct or I weigh up the pros and cons, and you're like, well, what makes the pros? What makes the cons? What's where did the gut come from? You know, where have you been assigning these, you know, assigning these meanings like you said before? If it's not from this perspective that you've just uncovered that is so deeply rooted in you, then what have you been doing? And how do you either keep doing that but more purposefully or change those habits of behavior that you've had over the entirety of your life that serviced you or not serviced you
James Glover [00:07:31]:
Yeah.
Rebecca Irving [00:07:31]:
You know, up to this point?
James Glover [00:07:33]:
I think what what feels like the most transformational element of of this part of the work for me is when people start to kind of, truly understand the experiences that have shaped the choices that they've made and therefore where they assign meaning. And, like, and how powerful it can be to go, oh, okay. So, actually, I sign them I assign meaning to a whole bunch of things that aren't really serving me in my life, but actually come from a place where I'm trying to protect myself at some level, or I have been protecting myself at some level. And now all that's happened is that kind of protection isn't necessarily valid anymore. It was an experience in adolescence or early adulthood or even childhood. And now I'm ten, fifteen, twenty years further down the line, and it's still playing out in the same place and in the same way. And so I'm not getting the things that I want anymore from that. That that's a really powerful thing to to to discover about yourself.
Rebecca Irving [00:08:43]:
It's also we we've talked a lot, haven't we? And we'll continue to talk about because I don't know about other people, but I felt very strongly when I started doing this work with you that this is something that I could use as a yardstick with with which to beat myself, this is what we talk about. Like, if I set this goal of what I what I want and I don't reach it, do I then feel bad about myself? And we talked about how that that should never be the case. But by understanding this other side, this other way that you've been making meaning up until this point, you can you can explain it. You know? You can tell, well, I haven't lived up to that or I haven't done that or I didn't take that choice. I did it for these reasons. That's not bad. That wasn't wrong. It was just what I was doing because it felt right in the moment.
Rebecca Irving [00:09:23]:
And now you can start making these conscious decisions about, okay, my natural reaction is to do something that I've done over and over again. For me, it's perfectionism. You know, like, if I'm gonna do something, it has to be that I have to have dotted all of the i's, crosses all of the t's. If if somebody can give me feedback, I need to have thought about it before they could give it to me and already done it. Like, this unbelievable pressure that I put on myself. And now I'm in a position where I still want to do that because that's so ingrained in who I am, but I can make a choice. Is this the right time to be a perfectionist about that particular thing? Does that serve my purpose, or, actually, does it go against this living in the moment, or now is the time just to be with my children? And that that needs you know, so you start to have these, you know, real opportunities, I suppose, of, making choices.
James Glover [00:10:13]:
And I think, you know, perfectionism is such a brilliant example. And, again, you know, many people who have come on this podcast have talked about exactly that and the kind of the wrestle with perfectionism. Bernie Brown talks about perfectionism being armor. Like, we're kind of armoring up to protect ourself. And you're kinda getting like, well, what what are you protecting yourself against? Well, if I'm perfect, I can never be wrong, and therefore, I can never be criticized. And, you know, if you've been overly criticized in any way at any point in time, you can start to then armor up. Like, I don't wanna feel that anymore. Actually, it's really important that I don't feel that, and therefore, I'm gonna start shifting and changing my behaviors to be able to control that.
James Glover [00:10:56]:
And, and, actually, she has a really wonderful description of the difference between perfectionism and healthy striving for excellence. Yeah. Because you don't have to be a perfectionist to want to be exceptionally good at what you do. There is just an a massive overplay of what drives the desire to either learn and grow and become better and be in the pursuit of excellence versus absolutely perfect, and there can't be anything more.
Rebecca Irving [00:11:25]:
We we kinda talked about why it's really important that there is a next step. But what is that next step? Let's be a little bit more intentional about the what we're trying to explain. So I've spent some time with you. We have gone through all of the stories, all of my stories, all of the defining moments, all of the key people, all of the the great and the difficult and the how I've responded. And from that, I've I've unpicked, you know, the the the themes and and come up with this purpose that's gonna guide me moving forward. So what what happens then? Like, we've got to that point. What do we do now?
James Glover [00:12:02]:
Well, there's a slight celebration and euphoric moment. And then there is a right. Okay. Let's start to just look at what this means for the choices that you've made up into the point where you are in your life right now and what this now might mean for the future choices that you want to make going forwards. And so let's sit for a moment and start to think about actually where you are really aligned to your purpose and where might there be misalignment ultimately. And so we give people the opportunity to sit and kind of reflect on where they might be making meaning. Alright? So it's it continues to deepen the meaning journey, and and you and I have talked about quite a bit the significance and the importance of storytelling and why do we use storytelling. And it's the kind of the, the data information, knowledge, wisdom frame of you tell a whole bunch of stories because it's a whole load of data.
James Glover [00:12:55]:
And then within that data, there is information. You're kind of sifting. You're filtering to get to the information, which is, oh, wow. There are some themes here. There are some connections with what's going on. And then you continue to be able to tell the stories and mind the, mind the information. And all of a sudden, you start to get to knowledge. Oh, this thing connects to this thing, and this is now how I see the world.
James Glover [00:13:18]:
And then you get to the point where you're going, right. Okay. I have a sense now of where this has come from, how this shapes my reality. Because, ultimately, all of us are perceiving the world in our own way. Our brain exists in a black box in your skull. There are no windows in the side of your head where your brain peeks out and goes, oh, what's the weather today? Or, oh, who's that that I'm talking to? It is solely reliant on your senses to make sense of the world around us. And so we're all interpreting all of this data and all of this information and trying to create a sense of knowledge of what reality is. So everything and anybody's reality anywhere is a perception.
James Glover [00:14:02]:
And so we're trying to give people the space to wrestle with what data and information have I tried to make sense of, what knowledge has that created for me. And then critically, like, the application of knowledge, the continued application of knowledge turns into wisdom. And so at this moment, at this point in time, what we're trying to do is we're trying to kind of disrupt that knowledge, wisdom, interconnection. We're trying to get people to sit with, ah, right. Now I have seen and understand what real meaning means for me. And now I'm having being given the space, time, and opportunity to go, where have I unconsciously applied significance importance? Where have I unconsciously created meaning that isn't now serving me? And part of the way in which we do that is we give people just some kind of archetypes that are based on experience, where do people often unconsciously apply meaning to things that aren't necessarily serving them. So perfectionism is one area that that takes place. Just externalizing the importance of other people's opinions is another.
James Glover [00:15:15]:
Numbing behaviors, not trying to feel anything at all is another way in which people can kind of assign they they are they're creating armor around meaning by not engaging with it at all. Achievement, sense of worth and worthiness, assigning success to productivity, anxiety and what drives anxiety. You know, the the kind of the the the confusion sometimes between, my anxiety and I'm feeling anxious. Like, people can actually own anxiety as something that they are rather than an emotional experience that they are having. And the difference between those two things is I can't do these things because I am an anxious person versus actually I am somebody who is triggered in this way to feeling anxiety. The and the difference sorry. Go on. So this you were talking you were talking examples.
James Glover [00:16:12]:
So we give people a whole bunch of different ways in which they can start to understand how and where they might have assigned meaning to things that maybe aren't serving them.
Rebecca Irving [00:16:22]:
Okay. So if I gave if I give, another one of my examples then. So, I am, as part of one of my roles, a primary school teacher. And as part of being a teacher, an educator, you are quality assured by observations, for example. Going into an observation, I might assign so much pressure on myself to what the people coming into my classroom will feel or think of me and what I'm doing. When actually, if I turned around and that is because of perfectionism, so I need to make sure that that lesson is absolutely everything is there so that nobody can give me a certain set of feedback. But also because, I care what people think about what I do for a job, but my job means a lot to me. If I look at it through that lens, there's an awful lot of pressure, and there's so many things that you have to juggle that actually what comes out is a very stressed sometimes you miss something big for the kids because that's not where your focus has been.
Rebecca Irving [00:17:24]:
If I turn and look at my, purpose statement, which is about inspiring others so that they can, see and be seen. If I put that at the focus of that observation, you know, the children that are in my classroom, I mean, these are the things that I do anyway because it's the heart of my role, but making sure that every single one of those children are inspired at different points during the lesson, that that connects with what they're learning, that I know them well enough that I've scaffolded them. Everything else will take care of itself. Like, the people that are observing me will see that, I am my children. I'm really good at my job. You know, I will have dotted the i's and crossed the t's because children are at the heart of what I'm doing. Yeah. Either way, the outcome would be an excellent lesson that children will have learned.
Rebecca Irving [00:18:10]:
But the difference being, one extreme pressure and self doubt and staying up until three in the morning because what if they suddenly say this? And the other is, I love this. I love them, and I can and I can do what I've yet. Now I know that had I not unpicked those things about myself, I would still be doing that despite the fact that I've got this this sort of understanding of my purpose because I wouldn't have had the understanding of myself to be able to disrupt that to then be able to go and apply a better lens.
James Glover [00:18:44]:
Yeah. Good thing. Like, really wonderful example. And also within that example, you're able to kind of show the difference between trying to control an outcome versus being immersed in the process. So the stress and anxiety was projecting yourself into the forward into the future and going, but what happens if? What happens if? What happens if? What happens if? What happens if? Because you, you are so focused on being able to deliver the outcome that you then can try to control all the variables to be able to guarantee that outcome. That's a really brilliant example of of kind of perfectionism at play versus versus the second the second element of that. You just focused on, like, the the process, your process. What makes you magical in that environment? And not only magical for the children, but magical for you, like, you just allowing your brilliance to shine.
James Glover [00:19:45]:
And, actually, focusing on the things that are truly meaningful you meaningful for you allows that to happen. There is a freedom that exists in that moment. There's a confidence that exists in that moment because you're connected to the things that you know are are are most important and significant to you, and it enables you to let go of the outcome. The paradox being, you freaking achieve the outcome anyway. Like, you get you get the thing that you're trying to go after. It's the it's the it's the process of getting there. And I think this is one of the things that that, can be really confronting about this work and why this kind of second second step of an understanding is is is a is a harder experience, but an even more liberating experience in that control. The need to feel control is so compelling that it drives and and part of that being because I don't want to feel vulnerable.
James Glover [00:20:43]:
I don't want to feel exposed. I don't want to feel like these people could take me down. And part of that is the, is conflating, is is is is misconnecting what you do with who you are. So I I am only as good a person as I am successful at delivering this lesson in the eyes of these people that I don't know and what they then give me in terms of, like, the the kind of the, am I am I, an outstanding teacher? And and we see it, especially in education, but we see it in so many sectors where people's sense of self worth is almost completely defined by the role that they play, like, by what they do, wherever they work. And so the success or the failure of what they're doing on a day to day basis directly translates into how they feel about themself.
Rebecca Irving [00:21:44]:
Mhmm. But, I mean, we're talking about that in terms of, like, our our our professions, but being a mother, or being a fa being a parent, you know, this plays out all the time as well. You that dreaded feeling when you turn up to school and your child's in their school uniform and everybody else is wearing some sort of handmade costume, and you're like, oh, no. What have I done? I've scarred my child's life. Like, you've got two choices in that moment. You send them in, feel bad about it for a really long time, run home, and put everything together. I'm sure there's some sort of sketch where some woman just takes off her top, which is stripy, and goes, Where's Wally? You know, but there's that sort of inside. It's like there's Again, it's that I failed in that moment because I let a ball drop, and therefore, I am a bad mother.
Rebecca Irving [00:22:29]:
And you kind of go, No, you're a human. And so we are- And you
James Glover [00:22:33]:
are messy. And that's what makes you brilliant.
Rebecca Irving [00:22:36]:
Yeah. And one of the most amazing things that I take from mum, and whenever I'm talking to any other parent that's on a downward spiral because things have not gone well, which happens, which happens, or just like photographs of crying children that I get from my friends, like, this is how my day is, and you've got like a child on the floor crying because they don't wanna ride the bike or whatever, is this idea of, you know, you you are you are human, and your children, as with anybody else that you meet, needs to see a whole human. This needs to see the vulnerability because otherwise, how can they ever be vulnerable?
James Glover [00:23:10]:
Because what do they what do they grow up what do they grow up emulating if all you showed them is perfection? They they grow up thinking that that's all that there is and that, like, they get slapped around by life because they they're either looking for the edge because they're like, can this be real? Surely, this can't be real. And as they go up going, I I don't know if I can continue to emulate this, and so what's wrong with me? At, like, at one level or or an or an a total other level, just the sense of insecurity that comes with, like like, not being able to see the depth of things, like the three d of things. Like, kids kids love boundary and to know where they are. And so they like to be able to get round the sides of things about and I'm just laughing to myself at that idea of rocking up to school and realizing that you haven't read the WhatsApp or the 84,000,000,000 messages that are in the WhatsApp that you haven't paid attention to. Because at Christmas, it was Christmas hat day, and we we we walked up and and I let my daughter, whose birthday is today. She's nine today. She we didn't have and she just looked at me, and I saw in her eyes. Like, I saw in her eyes the devastation.
James Glover [00:24:17]:
And, and Rebecca will attest will testify to my absolute lack of creativity gene. I did not get that one. And so she did. Wow. You know, Joe Joe Joe Joe got loads as well. He got a good healthy portion. I didn't get any. None.
James Glover [00:24:33]:
None of it. So so I dropped her off and was like, leave this with me. And I ran home, and I got one of her headbands, and I found some tinsel, and I wrapped it round, and I salutaped to the edge. And then and then I was like, I was literally at the door going, this is just gonna have to do because she just needs something rather than nothing. And then I went, I think in the back of the wardrobe somewhere, there might be an elf hat. Let's go. And I ran upstairs, and and I literally managed to dig out this elf hat. And I went, she can choose.
James Glover [00:25:02]:
So so I went to school with these two things, the reception, the receptionist looking at me as I handed over this headband of tinsel salutate to it. Like the but, oh, don't didn't you try? And I and this, Do one. And,
Rebecca Irving [00:25:20]:
I provided
James Glover [00:25:21]:
And let and and guess what she came out wearing later
Rebecca Irving [00:25:24]:
on? Both.
James Glover [00:25:25]:
The elf hat. Because because she's eight, and she's got a level of self respect. She's nine now and way too cool for any of that jazz. So, yeah. But but these are the these are the small things that, that we can overlook. Right? So I use the language of the role that we play. So, you know, in this in this regard, teacher, educator, it is a role that you play. You also are a parent.
James Glover [00:25:52]:
That's a role that you play in your life, and that role adapts over time as your children require different things from you. But we can we can miss the fact that these small interactions and these small, interconnections can really disrupt our sense of self worth and our sense of value. When we're going, I'm I'm only as good a parent as the outfit that I create for World Book Day. Wow, you're onto a hiding. Or, like, whatever I bake for the party or, you know, the way in which I wrap a present. Like, these things do not determine who you are or how good a parent you are. Like, they can be wonderful things, and they can be deeply meaningful. But let's be really honest, they don't.
James Glover [00:26:35]:
Because what do your kids need more than anything else? Love. Alright. We can we we'll just get back to the emotion always. Back to the emotion.
Rebecca Irving [00:26:45]:
And I think if if we can role model, like, that that awakening that you've had, like, that's that's a phenomenal start in life to turn around and go, you you read that chapter of your book really, really well, but you were really struggling on a couple of words there. And I maybe didn't have the patience that I needed to in the moment. And the reason for that is that I've got half a mind on x, y, and zed, and that wasn't the best way for me to serve my time. And I'm sorry about that because what I really care about is seeing you for who you are. You know? So let's do that. Let's do that a bit again. You read that bit to me again, and I'm gonna have my attention fall on you. And suddenly, your child's gone from, well, my mom's distracted, or I haven't done a good enough job, or, you know, she's just got across with me for no reason to She's a real person.
Rebecca Irving [00:27:34]:
She's got emotions. She made a mistake, but she knows why she made a mistake. This is what she actually wants because this is what she cares about, and we're giving it another go. So next time I feel frustrated or I don't do something right, I'm not a bad person for that. And if I can self reflect, apologize, and give it another go, then suddenly, you know, like, I have second chances. Like, everything isn't so heavily weighted. Now, I'm using parenting as an example, but surely that's the same in every walk of life. I mean, I take the fact that sometimes you have to do things right first time.
Rebecca Irving [00:28:07]:
Right? Like, if somebody's doing heart surgery on me, then I don't really want them to go, Sorry. I wasn't paying attention. Now you don't have a valve or whatever. Like, they're they're attached to it. That's really important.
James Glover [00:28:16]:
Hold on. Why is there a goat's heart in this woman's chest? Like, whatever.
Rebecca Irving [00:28:22]:
No. I think what I'm trying to turn around and say is, wouldn't it be wonderful if there is a culture shift, which I what I I'm really excited about the excitable soul is the more people that you work with, the more excited people get, the more that they're talking about it. And the more that people talk about things, there is an awareness that, actually, I don't even realize that I had armor before, you know, or or I thought that this was my armor. And, actually, when I unpuck it, pick it, it's more these different things. And I'm not a bad person for that, but I can have some sort of control over it. And for kids to see that when they're when they're going through these experiences, which will what will which are what will add up to the way that they see the world, should be able to understand that you can live in a moment in so many different ways. You know? And just because you've done it one way for however long doesn't mean you can't stop, reflect, and do it differently next time. Like, powerful and mental health wise, the repercussions could be amazing.
James Glover [00:29:21]:
I don't know whether you can remember this specific quote, but I I quote you all the time, which is that, it's not the moment that defines you, but how you choose to live within it.
Rebecca Irving [00:29:34]:
Bob, I'm James Holder.
James Glover [00:29:36]:
Because the there is there's real magic in that. You know, even when you were describing to me there, like playing back, how powerful is it for us to be able to role model to children that we're able to turn around and go, wow. I wasn't fully here because and explain that. Like, as you were playing that back to me, I was like, wow. There's a lot in there's a lot in that. There's a lot in that. And, and, yes, there's there's if more people could do that, what would be the impact of it? It'd be absolutely tremendous. I think the bit that that I really want to kinda double down on that that's in all of that is being able to turn around and go, if you really understand, if you bring a level of insight, a level of awareness to actually where and how you find meaning.
James Glover [00:30:26]:
So where do you make sense of the world, and what are the things that you're really trying to utilize to kind of anchor the way in which you see and experience the world around you? It gives you the opportunity to see more. And when you see more, there's more possibility. There's more choice. So you don't feel limited in those moments to have to double down of, you know, you're feeling angry and you're feeling frustrated because you didn't handle something in the way that you want. And the doubling down of that is then that that comes out in the interaction. And then you walk away from that interaction and you and you feel a certain way about it. And and the other person feels a certain way about whether it's a child or whether it's a partner, whether it's a friend, whoever the interaction is with. If you really understand that, oh, the thing I really care about is is believing in other people, then it gives you the space to be able to turn around and go, oh, wow.
James Glover [00:31:22]:
Hold up. Let's just come back to that for a second. I'm sorry. Or even if you don't wanna come back to it, to your point earlier on, you don't beat yourself so hard with a stick. Like, the cost isn't so severe because you can turn around and go, wow. I didn't get that one right, but that's okay because I'm not gonna get every single one right. But you know what? I do know what matters to me. I do know what I care about, and I could do something different next time.
Rebecca Irving [00:31:48]:
I I think yeah. We've talked a lot about the fact that you're not you're not creating a purpose for yourself. You're uncovering a purpose that's always been there.
James Glover [00:31:56]:
Yeah.
Rebecca Irving [00:31:58]:
Even though you might not have been able to articulate that before or you haven't looked into it in-depth, you will you will have had a gut reaction to everything because that's where we're mining that information from. Right? So anything big that happens in your life, whether that be something great or something not great, you feel that it's great or it's not great because it is either in a line or not in a line with with your purpose. So once you start attuning to that in your discovery of it, you then start to attune to the situations that you've got to see whether you're in alignment moving forwards. Yeah. So, and that doesn't always, that doesn't always directly relate to the words that you put together for your purpose. So you'll come across a situation, you'll be like, I feel uncomfortable, or I feel backed into a corner, or I feel afraid, or I feel reluctant. Why? And then you you go and go you go back, don't you? You surface backwards to, well, what were the themes? What were the things that were important to me? What were the ideals behind the words that I put together for this purpose? What is my gut reaction telling me to do? And is that just to protect me, or is that to, ensure that I'm in alignment? You know, so because sometimes it does that. Right? Sometimes these these armors that you've got are because they're pushing you towards what you ultimately feel is right.
Rebecca Irving [00:33:16]:
And sometimes it's just stopping you from being in a vulnerable or shameful shameful situation. And that that sort of self awareness of being able to unpick, why is my gut telling me that? And that doesn't always happen in the moment. Sometimes that happens way later, like that evening when you're having a cup of tea before bed or, you know, in your dreams when it's playing back over your mind or or, you know, it's but it's it's a I think it's a sense of peace afterwards of going, I know why I behaved like that. And now I've got a choice about whether I just kind of go, okay. Next time that comes up, I'll be a bit quicker to figure out what was happening, or maybe this is one that I need to go and explain to somebody, or maybe I need to pick a different choice of choices.
James Glover [00:33:56]:
Agree. Agree. Agree hard. And I and one of the things that we we really want to bring people towards is self compassion because, you know, that's that's the opposite of the stick, isn't it? You know, like, the opposite of the judgment is compassion. And, you know, self compassion really isn't it like, if you're if you're overly self critical, if you're overly if if you're just putting yourself through the ringer of of judgment in that way, you you like you you're the aggressor and the victim. And and, actually, from a self compassion perspective, being able to just acknowledge that that that you are suffering in some way here. Like, we we talk about this difference between protection and potential. You know, like, the the armoring up is about protection.
James Glover [00:34:48]:
It's about defense. It's about shielding. It's about preservation, conservation, you know, like, barreling up, like, buffering, whatever that may be versus potential being possibility and promise and, you know, prospect all the piece that come with.
Rebecca Irving [00:35:06]:
You do love some alliteration. You don't get all all the words started with the same pattern.
James Glover [00:35:10]:
Yeah. That's the word. My little dyslexic brain likes to make patterns and get access to things like that. But also remember remember stuff. But, you know, that that that's really important in self compassion because if you're not if you're not in that judgment space of of critiquing and therefore trying to create some level of of protection, compassion allows you to stumble. It allows you to then pick yourself up. It allows you to just acknowledge that you are a human being and that you're living in a shared human experience and that other people are in exactly the same situation as you are? Like, how often how often do we hear people listening to other people, going through experiences that we've had and go, oh, god. Thank you.
James Glover [00:35:57]:
It's not just me. How good is that? And it's not like we're going, oh, yay. They're suffering too. Woo hoo. It's like well, most people aren't. But
Rebecca Irving [00:36:07]:
but it's too hard. Right? Yeah.
James Glover [00:36:13]:
But it but it's just a case of, like, oh, wow. Alright. It isn't just me. And for everybody listening, it's not just it's not just you.
Rebecca Irving [00:36:20]:
And it's it's articulating it's articulating it and talking about it more as well, isn't it? And I think that that's that's a really important thing to do. We talk about that work about, self compassion and the difference between self compassion and self esteem, about not pitting yourself against other people. And I remember watching something, an interview with Simon Sinek, and he was talking about, not denying people the opportunity to show up for you. So by by by sheltering yourself off and going, I can't I can't share this. Maybe I'm the only one, or they've got too much on their plate. You're actually denying them an opportunity to have a connection with you. Like, if I was to say, I feel really stressed about this. Can't tell James because James is busy with what he's doing, and he's got this going on, that's going on, then I'm not giving I'm not giving you the opportunity to go, I know a bit about that, you know, or just chat to me because my shoulders are broad enough, and I've got a shared experience here, and I want to support you.
Rebecca Irving [00:37:19]:
You know, you're like, you're you're denying that belonging. I find it fascinating when we speak, James, because we always start on a topic, and it doesn't matter which topic we're talking about. We bring in all of these different elements of the other things that have that have informed how this whole process has been researched and connected and and put together. And there are so many deep and important themes that run through the excitable soul. Belonging in its by itself could be a a topic of conversation and and and identity. Like, all of these threads that people talk about all run so systemically through through what the excitable soul is, and they're right at the core of the human existence. Right?
James Glover [00:38:01]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, that's a really important point because one of the things that's felt more and more, compelling to me the more and more we've done this work is that purpose is is just a human need. It's a human need. Like, we have physical needs. We have emotional needs, mental needs. We have we have meaning needs too. And, and that's and that's not some woke wanky bullshit. That's like a genuine evidence based reality that when people have a sense of meaning in their lives, they live longer.
James Glover [00:38:36]:
They are healthier. They live happier lives. And that's because they know that who they are matters, and everybody needs to feel to some degree like they matter because they do. And I've been around long enough to hear other people turn around and say that and go, fuck off, dipshit. Not everybody matters. Like, they really don't. And then you wake up and get over yourself and realize that, yes, they really do. Everybody has value.
James Glover [00:39:04]:
And what was the what's the the the name of the gentleman from Mad Lib? Dave, who we, who we spoke to just said, you know, he works with, children in care. And he's like, a child breathes, therefore, they have value. I'm like, that that there is the definition of value. Somebody breathes, they have value. So if we're able to, through this work, help people see that just a core need that they have as a human being is to figure out what's meaningful to them and how they can make a contribution to that, that feels like really worthwhile work for us to be doing. Alright. Absolutely. For our Mel Skin and Blister, you've given us about half a dozen topics for more of these in the, those out there.
Rebecca Irving [00:39:47]:
Just just keeping myself in business shift. Yeah.
James Glover [00:39:50]:
Yeah. Keep keep myself relevant because myself with no way is associated to this podcast. So, yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you everybody for joining us and listening to us talk about, you know, the kind of things that are really interesting us and inspiring us at the excitable soul and the people too. Self compassion, by the way, referencing Kirsten Neff. She's been a researcher in this area for a phenomenal amount of time and is absolutely incredible in terms of what she's bringing to the world in in in her understanding.
James Glover [00:40:23]:
So, let's try and get her on the podcast. That'd be amazing.
Rebecca Irving [00:40:26]:
I was just about to say, the invite if anybody knows her, tell her tell her to come our way.
James Glover [00:40:30]:
Connect her in with us. Yeah. Have a great day, everybody. Have a great day, Bec. Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at theexcitablesoul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.