Episode #30 Francis Briers

Navigating Life's Complexities: Finding Purpose Amidst Chaos

In today's episode, I sit down with Francis Briers, a seasoned expert in leadership development and organisational change, to unravel the complexities of understanding purpose in both personal and professional realms.

Through reflections, sharing our human experiences, and the wisdom we have learnt along the way, we dive into how maintaining a sense of purpose can guide us through life's challenges.

Together we explore the delicate balance between internal conviction and external influence, shedding light on the pitfalls of seeking external validation and the essence of finding intrinsic meaning.

Francis shares poignant insights from his journey, ranging from the profound impact of poetry to the harsh realities of "purpose washing" in corporate environments. We tackle the paradoxes of rationality versus spirituality, individual purpose versus communal care, and the need for sanctuary amidst striving.

Join us as we uncover how genuine connections and meaningful contributions shape our understanding of purpose and help us to navigate life’s numerous contradictions.

Links in the episode:

Francis Website

Francis on LinkedIn

Read the transcript here

James Glover [00:00:09]:

Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.

James Glover [00:00:44]:

So let's get going, shall we? Alrighty. Today, we have Francis Briers with us. Francis brings over 25 years of experience in unlocking human potential with the past 15 years devoted to leadership development. Francis is an executive coach and facilitator, and he has guided founders, global executives, and top leadership teams to discover deeper wisdom and embodied leadership practices that go beyond skills and knowledge. Specializing in the intersection of leadership, culture, and organizational change, Francis has helped leaders navigate complex transitions from agile transformations to building compassionate high performing cultures. Francis' work is informed by a diverse set of studies, including indigenous practices, martial arts, and advanced qualifications in executive coaching, appreciative inquiry, and spiritual counseling. A published author and international speaker in today's episode will explore how Francis blends his background in performing arts with leadership development to cultivate authentic, purposeful growth that inspires impactful change for individuals and teams. A really wonderful conversation.

James Glover [00:01:57]:

Enjoy.

Francis Briers [00:01:59]:

So, yeah, it's it's been a journey for me, and that sounds cliche perhaps, but it genuinely has been, a thing that I think I had a kind of instinctive sense as a child of wanting a sense of purpose. I wouldn't have been able to articulate that. I think even in my teens, I don't think I really had a sense of that necessarily, not in a way that I would have articulated that way. But I think I grew up with a strong sense of being, of of being you know, my parents both had a strong sense of purpose, I think, my mom in particular. And and then I you know, through my late teens, twenties, heading into my early thirties, I was in a lot of kind of personal development, spiritual development kind of work and and exploring a lot. You know? So I think there was a way I was looking for my own sense of purpose and trying to understand that and and sense of meaning as much as anything, sense of spirit and sense of meaning in the world. And then coming then then there's a kind of journey into purpose being more explicitly part of my work and part of the narrative, and then frankly becoming fairly cynical about that as purpose became more present in the zeitgeist, particularly in terms of the kind of cultural, cultural narrative of organizations. Now I work mostly in organizations now, mostly in or a lot of the time in leadership development, sometimes around kinda culture and change, but a lot most of the time, we we're the leaders and and and a lot of the time in leadership development.

Francis Briers [00:03:28]:

And and and I'm I'm making my piece. I'm kinda coming back around. I'm making my peace with purpose in that space. But but that in itself has been a bit of a journey that these last, I'd say, 5 or so years because I felt like I was seeing such a preponderance of purpose washing in organizations. And and at first, I I I started to have a kind of instinctive discomfort around the way purpose seemed to have become commoditized and built into particularly in start ups and things like that, you know, the kind of classic culture deck. And, you know, the the the the vast raft of books on purpose and how purpose would make your organisation be the most successful organisation, all those kind of things, not inherently bad. There's lots of organizations I really want to be effective and, you know, so great.

James Glover [00:04:20]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Francis Briers [00:04:21]:

And to to for it to feel purposeful for people, I think, has the potential to be good for well-being too and all sorts of, you know, great things. But there was something about the commoditization of it and the kind of almost industrialization of purpose that I felt really uncomfortable about that had been foreshadowed by the same thing happened with values. You know? Values went from being this kind of actually pretty groundbreaking way of thinking about what it means to be part of an organization. When they were first introduced as a language, that was it was really new and it was really different to to the like, the idea of talking about values, a bit like purpose, Almost felt kinda too personal, and and a lot of corporate spaces were edgy about it. But then it became a thing, and then it became a normal thing and just very much part of the, I mean, really part of the part of the woodwork in in in many places. And I'd I'd long been trying to tease out what what the problem was with that and how you might go about fixing it. The way I came to talk about it was, as what I what I referred to as cultural taxidermy. So, you know, that actually, the values of an organisation, the lived values should be a a vibrant living, breathing thing.

Francis Briers [00:05:37]:

And in that, they are not entirely fixed. I think way a really healthy way of working with values, yes, you can articulate them. But if you try and articulate them in such a way that you pin them down to the nth degree and then say, no. What we mean by courage is x, y, and zed. And if you mean something else by courage, then that's not what what you mean. You know, that whole kind of controlling dialogue. I get where it comes from because there's a kind of, an anxiety or desire to be clear and have clarity, especially if you start to kinda measure people against some things and and clarity is important. But the danger in it is that you start to pin the thing down so much that it's like taxidermy.

Francis Briers [00:06:15]:

You know, you take this vibrant living, breathing creature, the soul of the forest, and and shoot it and stuff it with sand and hang it on the wall, and then we call that our values. And I'd say that's not your values anymore. Like, it looks sort of looks and looks like your values, but it certainly doesn't behave like your values anymore because you've killed it. And and I think there's there's a thing that kinda large corporate organisations can fall down that whole around lots of things, but values was one of the places where I I first most clearly saw it happen. And I think a similar thing happened with purpose. And and and one of the signals for me of that was the way that the language that we like, I sort of again, with values, I saw it first. Right? The language that we used for values, it started to be like you couldn't talk about courage without everyone rolling their eyes because it was a word that had been so overused associated with a kind of bland, bland expression of something that no one really believed in. The the the language became we we started to have a kind of poverty of language because the words were meaningless now because they've been kind of overused in the wrong context.

Francis Briers [00:07:22]:

And then perp I felt like I started to see a similar thing happen with purpose, that the way people talked about purpose felt like it had become industrialised and that even the language around it started to have a kind of, poverty of real meaning, that I felt uncomfortable about even even instinctively, even before I could have articulated that that that that's what I thought was going on. You know? And then the language around purpose washing became more common language. It's like, yeah. Okay. It's something in that direction. But but, actually, the the turning point for me was thinking about it for myself. So So I was thinking about this in in the context of organizations and leadership and things. So that was very much part of my world.

Francis Briers [00:08:05]:

But the real turning point in it for me was I had a conversation with someone I was working with, where they were talking about kind of purpose and how, you know, if if you if you're really clear about your purpose, then you it it it doesn't matter how hard the work is, you know, because you've got energy for it because purpose helps give you that, which at one level I get. I was already suspicious of that narrative because I'd heard it in the context of so many, particularly those kind of startups or or organizations that wanted to look like startups. And and it just felt like a really great excuse to squeeze people harder for more stuff.

James Glover [00:08:37]:

The cost being burnout.

Francis Briers [00:08:39]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

James Glover [00:08:41]:

We're on purpose, but we're all, we're we're we're all completely cooked.

Francis Briers [00:08:45]:

Yeah. Yeah. Or or some some idea that to me felt obviously broken that, that but but I won't happen if we're purpose driven enough. And I hadn't worked with a lot of charities, but I'd worked with enough charities to see that that absolutely wasn't true. Because if you look at the charity sector, that that's I don't know if it still is because I don't work with lots now, but but, certainly, I've seen that to be true. People doing amazing work that they really believe in with their whole heart and soul, and they really wanna be there and doing that thing. It's the most important thing to them in their lives, and they are absolutely fried and only getting worse by the day. Like so that that for me, that was even if it wasn't obvious kind of intellectually, experientially, I'd seen it.

Francis Briers [00:09:28]:

It doesn't matter how purposeful the thing is. People will will eventually just crash. It is not sustainable. And, and I remember having having a conversation around purpose with someone who's talking to me about, you know, our work together and the work together in in the in in the context, that we were kind of operating in. And and I had this kind of moment like I sometimes do in a conversation, you know, a kind of moment of clarity that I wouldn't have found if I was trying to get clear. But just in talking to someone, it kinda fell out of my mouth. I remember telling him to say, but I I feel like I've been purpose driven since my twenties. It's not a new thing for me.

Francis Briers [00:10:06]:

And I don't feel like purpose is, and the the only thing I feel like purpose has given me is it just made me tired. I I don't feel you know, like, I just I just feel more tired because I drive myself so hard. And and and, you know, I've had conversations elsewhere where people say, well, if if it's having that effect, then it's not really purpose, and that purpose should be able to be big enough to include balance and family and all of those other things, which I which I get on the face of it. But when we try and do anything like pinning purpose down, it ceases to be that big and that nuanced. It's that big and that nuance when it's still a kind of feeling. But if you try and focus it and say my purpose is this, which is sometimes a useful thing to do, you know, just like with values, it can turn into taxidermy. But if we stay on the right side of it, then the articulation helps us be clearer day to day and more intentional. But as soon as you do that, it's it's no longer capable of encompassing the all and the everything that includes me and my family and and my the the the hundred different roles that I play on a day to day basis.

James Glover [00:11:16]:

About 20 things have come out of like, you may have noticed I've been madly scribbling as you've been. Oh my god. Let's talk about that. Oh my god. Let's talk about that. Oh my god. Let's talk about that. But just just for a second to kinda hold on to this because, like, your language is so beautiful, this kind of poverty of meaning and the industrialization of purpose.

James Glover [00:11:33]:

And and let's come back to those concepts in a minute. But this send this like the language I've I've I've been drawn to is this idea of a sense of purpose.

Francis Briers [00:11:43]:

Mhmm.

James Glover [00:11:43]:

Because the word sense of is that you have an understanding and a connection to it, but it's not so it's not so clear and defined as you have kind of nailed it to the wall. And that's predominantly because it has to be felt. So there is a sense of something. And I love the way you were like, you know, that it should be big and it should be expansive and it can be because it's a felt experience. But the second that you try and reduce it right down and, like and kind of and and put it into a box and it it ceases to be those things and we have to stay on the right side of taxidermy. That's so good. Let's not go into the forest and kill it and stuff it. Let's allow it to be free, but be with it to some degree, which I think is I think is a really wonderful way of getting people to just yet again understand the type of data and information that we're trying to pay attention to.

James Glover [00:12:30]:

Like, the more that we over intellectualize and don't allow that meeting of intellectual clarity and emotional conviction and allow those two things to kinda coalesce in the right way, the more we fall onto the wrong we're we're we're getting we're getting into the zoo environment rather than the wildlife environment and then into a taxidermy and a museum experience of, oh, look. This is what it used to look like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that so that that was just a really lovely, I guess, moment. I'm sorry I cut across your flight.

Francis Briers [00:12:59]:

No. No. No. Not at all. No. I love that. And that's a beautiful articulation. As you would describe and I love the extension of the metaphor, you know, the kind of zoo environment rather than wild environment.

Francis Briers [00:13:08]:

And then the the the museum environment, I then start to have a a a kind of mental image of kind of staring into the glass eyes of a dead thing and kinda going, oh, this is what purpose used to look like. Yeah. Yeah.

James Glover [00:13:19]:

Yeah. But but in some organizations like that, that is the and I guess this is what you're describing in terms of the the kind of the apathy that was was created. I I, I geared myself up for a fight. Like, I'm not a combative and combative guy, but I geared myself up for a fight a few months ago when I was invited to, a kind of a webinar about the post purpose age. And I was like, no. No. No. Like, what? What is this? And then I and like and so I'm like, I've got to get on there because I just gotta figure out what what this is about.

James Glover [00:13:49]:

And, actually, thankfully, my heart rate and blood pressure returned to a normal level when when when the person that was speaking actually just said, I talk about the kind of the post purpose age in that purpose is still relevant and purpose is still critical, but we are now in the post cynical age of purpose. And, like, we need to take organizations. We need to take leaders. We need to take individuals beyond the cynicism. So it was this galvanizing experience as you described it. It was then commoditized and industrialized and shot dead. And now we're on the other side of it because actually it's still a deeply human experience. It's a it's a deeply human need to find meaning.

James Glover [00:14:31]:

So when you talked about, like, poverty of meaning and the meaninglessness of words, like, I was like, oh, wow. That that that feels like the problem that we're trying to solve when it comes to purpose in organizations.

Francis Briers [00:14:42]:

Mhmm. Yeah. And it's a difficult one. Right? Because as soon as you articulate the thing, it's not a thing anymore. And and that is hard. It's why you know, for a while, I started to talk about meaning rather than purpose because purpose to some degree, inherent in the language feels like a thing. I feel like feel like it's defined. My purpose is.

Francis Briers [00:15:01]:

Whereas it's very hard to say my meaning is, but it's very easy to say I have a sense of meaning when I do this or when I engage in this way or when I talk to this person. So I think sense of meaning is a really helpful, thing. The and and just hearing you talk about it, it it reminds me of, in the Tao Te Ching, which is a, an ancient leadership text actually originally. It's considered a spiritual text by most now, but, originally, it was written as a leadership text in in ancient China. And it's one of my favorite books and kinda guiding stars in many ways. The, the first line two lines of the Tao Te Ching, they're often translated fairly similarly, not uniformly but fairly similarly. And it's usually something along the lines of the Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name, which basically says everything I'm about to say in the rest of this book is nonsense, and you shouldn't really listen to it because as soon as I wrote it down, it ceased to be true.

Francis Briers [00:16:04]:

Now any book that starts that way, I trust a little more. Because

James Glover [00:16:09]:

if you I'm undermining my own credibility, Pauline. I'm in. Let's go.

Francis Briers [00:16:12]:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm acknowledging the floor in my own position. Great. Okay. Now we can have a conversation. So and there is something about that that when you take the, the infinite and indescribable lived experience of of human beingness and try it boil try and boil it down to 5 words, of course, you lose something in that process, partly because you're trying to boil it down maybe too much. Although, the 5 words can be useful.

Francis Briers [00:16:43]:

Right? You know, there's there's it's it's it's it's a it's a dance and a polarity. I'd I'm not black and white.

James Glover [00:16:49]:

It's paradox. Right? It's paradox.

Francis Briers [00:16:51]:

Like, how how

James Glover [00:16:51]:

do you make both both things both things true in that I totally agree with you also that the words are critical because there's accessibility then to to the bigger territory. As in, like, how do we how do we how do we quickly find ourselves back in that place where I'm connected to those things? Like, what are the anchor points? The right words can be anchor points to the bigger, but that but I and I love the language. They're not the thing. They're like like, to me, purpose isn't just it's not the thing. Purpose is the outcome of some stuff. So, so actually, if we do some stuff over here, what we get is this sense of purpose or this feeling of being purposeful. And and the biggest part of that is coming back to meaning because it's about importance and significance. There is the the kind of the the the super simplified language in my head is one of, do I matter and, and and is what I do worth it to some degree?

Francis Briers [00:17:45]:

I I I I think that's true for lots of people. Even the do I matter is something I've started to become fairly, cautious about, at least it for myself and I think for other people too. So there's lots of people that I meet and work with, and and there's a degree to which this is true for me, and I'm trying to to have it not to to be less true, that do that that do I matter? Or even does my work matter? Because there's a kind of externalization, of the validation of what I do in that that I think is dangerous in in a in a bunch of different ways, which is again one of the reasons why I started to kind of move further towards meaning, in some ways, talking about meaning. And that that kind of ex need for external validation of, you know, do I matter, you know, is I think is dangerous in a couple of ways. One, it can lead people towards the territory of the end justifies the means. Because if it's if it's important enough, then I'll do anything to achieve it, which which again I see in all sorts of organizational environments, you know, kind of, destructive behavior justified because the the greater purpose is sufficiently important. And there's a whole other conversation there about, if you achieve the thing while undermining the integrity of the thing, is is the thing does the achievement of the thing matter in the same way, or have you have you kind of poisoned the well? So there's a there's a kind of integrity piece there that I think is is often under interrogated, in that thinking. And and the other side is that from a purely well-being point of view, as long as my sense of peace is dependent on external factors, then my sense of peace is always gonna be a flipping roller coaster because it's outside of my control.

Francis Briers [00:19:51]:

Now it's fine to reach for and achieve and, you know, kinda go for things that are outside of you. Of course, stretch, brilliant. Be inspired, brilliant. But if you haven't got a fundamental sense of peace that isn't entirely held by you

James Glover [00:20:05]:

Yeah.

Francis Briers [00:20:07]:

Then you're in trouble because it's the life is nothing if not inconsistent. You know, the heart of of life in many ways, I think, is change. And, you know, the Buddha didn't get, didn't get as popular as he did by by saying life is suffering without that being in some way resonant to to many people. So, yeah, I I just think there's something about, you know And

James Glover [00:20:41]:

the the the word that really stood well, the the word that kind of, I think we we're both a 100% aligned on is the externalization of some stuff. And so the the kind of the language of our matter, if we qualify a really quick, like, statement, and and this is the magic of you, like, immediately go, oh, like, there's a there's some there's something in that there's something in that bit. The the externalization bit is the dangerous bit actually and the bit where meaning is important because meaning ultimately should be about the things that you feel are important, that you feel are significant, not necessarily set by external expectation or trying to necessarily meet external expectation. And we run a, we run an executive immersion program a a few weeks ago, and, one of the participants in the program when we said, you know, what's been the what's been the impact of of of our time together here, and they just said, I've I've come home to myself. And what was really wonderful is following up with them a few weeks later. They've been in some very, very challenging, situations from a leadership perspective within their organization. And they just said, I cannot believe how calm I have been in these situations because I've come home to myself.

Francis Briers [00:21:54]:

Yeah.

James Glover [00:21:55]:

Like, I have been in similar situations before, not understood what I now understood about what what's important to me and the contribution that I can make, and therefore, the sense of freedom and control I have over my own internal environment has allowed me to go into these situations and circumstances and be different because I've come home to myself.

Francis Briers [00:22:16]:

Yeah.

James Glover [00:22:16]:

I'm like, that was such a wonderful way of being able to describe the actual power of this. If you don't, you know, annex it or externalize it completely to and that's because that's where the vulnerability and the and and the and the fragility comes from. Right? Because it's not it's not for you anymore.

Francis Briers [00:22:34]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I and and again, you know, just hearing you speak, there's there's a thing where I go. And and again, it's it's a polarity. It's a it's a paradox. It's not because it's not black and white. Because equally, I I could you know, if I take it to the extreme, then, you know, I could be a a serial killer who feels absolute conviction about this my own internal sense of purpose, and it would be quite good if I took an external reference point, to your question that.

Francis Briers [00:23:05]:

If you're listening, James just took a drink of water while I said that. So, he's now trying not to drown.

James Glover [00:23:11]:

I've almost ruined my expensive microphone by spraying water from the serial killer reference. But but I guess but but this is the thing. Right? Paradox tension. Right? Being able to hold the tension between between things. And I think this is for me where the the the meaning is important, right? We've touched on meaning and this is where our conversation is going to last for about 3 weeks. But there's also there's also something in the the second part of purpose for me and I'd love your perspective on it, which is the contribution element, which is the what do you do with the things that are meaningful so that the outcome feels purposeful? And that has to be about the consequence beyond self interest. So to your point, like, all right, you can be a serial killer and this really meaningful to me and it comes from the inside and I'm taking it into the world. You're killing people.

James Glover [00:23:56]:

The consequence of that, not so much. The contribution that you're making, not so much. So that there's something there that that that creates the scaffolding where purpose can be and enable it to hold paradox and to hold tension.

Francis Briers [00:24:08]:

Yeah. Yeah. And and we talk about paradox a lot. So I I work at, a consultancy called Korn Ferry. Sorry. All all all of all of my opinions are my own. But

James Glover [00:24:21]:

There are many other consultancies that I'm not Sally. We're not we're not the BBC. We're okay.

Francis Briers [00:24:26]:

Yeah. But, we talk about a lot about Paradox, and and it and it's one of the things that I like about the the work there. And because if you look at Taoist philosophy, talks a lot about paradox. In fact, in many ways, the heart of Taoist philosophy more almost more than anything else is is polarity and paradox, yin and yang, you know, being the kind of archetype one that people are often familiar with. And and and, and outside in and inside out. Yeah. That's why I just wanted to kinda bring into our language because in a way, that's what we're talking about. Right? Is that, for purpose to kind of work, it's gotta be inside out.

Francis Briers [00:25:01]:

Yes. It's also gotta be outside in. Otherwise, the did we risk the kind of postmodern, completely self referential kind of loss disappearing or up your own backside kind of version, which is actually not so good either. So it's how we make common cause between, personal integrity and a sense of care for the commons. You know? Like, how do we do both those things and manage the tension between them, I think, is really important. And, again, often gets lost when you look at the narrative around purpose in some of the kind of what's been coming out of stoicism, but the kind of modern like, the contemporary version of stoicism that's kind of prop propagated through YouTube, sometimes brilliantly, sometimes it is has has come to be associated with with toxic masculinity as well. And a lot of where that falls over its own feet, I think, is where purpose becomes entirely, individualistic. It's the kind of rugged individualism, that's kind of classic in, you know, kind of many many versions of American culture and not not everywhere and all of it.

Francis Briers [00:26:13]:

But, you know, that kind of rugged individualism, I think, has a a real flaw at its heart, and and it is that in it's too inside out and not enough outside in in terms of that sense of care for the commons that is often seen as more socialist or even communist. You know? So there's there's kind of this fascinating dance between philosophy, personal sense of integrity, and political movements that means we can end up with this kind of personal and cultural narrative that can make it really hard to stay in the nuance. And yet that tension of a of a paradox or a priority, that's exactly what it demands of us is to stay in the space of nuance. And I think that's also what people find hard, whether that's individuals or in organizations. It's it's hard to stay in the nuance. Ultimately, in my experience, that's that's that's really where the juice is. But but I but I do wanna recognize it's difficult. It's not it's not straightforward.

James Glover [00:27:07]:

And and can I just bring you back to some, something you said earlier on, which also feels about it feels kind of staying in the nuance and where the juice is? It's definitely where the juice is for me. When you were talking about, your kind of journey and experience around purpose and your kind of sense making around it, and you talked about, you know, searching for searching for something around spirit and searching for something around soulfulness. And you you talked about the kind of the, the, the infinite, indescribable nature of human experience. Because for me there is something, you know, the kind of the simpleness of Aristotle and we are greater than the sum of our parts that, you know, when you stitch people together just from an organs and bones and and, you know, mechanics perspective, actually the sum of all of that is this wondrous creature that has almost infinite possibility in the way it can see and perceive the world and the things that it can do. And then when you get one of those and you put it with another one of those and then connect it with a whole bunch of other ones of those, like the sum of the sum of the parts there is is kind of greater than the the the kind of the pieces too. And how do you help people feel the and stay in the the value of that? You know, that the intangible is actually valuable.

Francis Briers [00:28:23]:

Mhmm.

James Glover [00:28:24]:

That feels like hard work too.

Francis Briers [00:28:26]:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. And I and I think, especially in the modern world, that is not just hard work, but it's your work you're kinda swimming upstream. So we have a kind of cultural momentum. I mean, there's there's other forces at play now that that would go against this, but not not necessarily helpfully. So there is a cultural momentum in my perception in the in the I I speak for the kind of modern western world, you know, America, UK, and Europe. I can't speak for the whole of the world.

Francis Briers [00:28:59]:

Like, I know there there are vast variances in in perspective around the globe. But in my kind of lived experience, it feels like there's a there's a strong cultural momentum towards a kind of elevation of the rationalist, materialist, broadly scientific. Although I think I've met plenty of scientists who can be much more nuanced than the the the the the dominant rationalist kind of materialist worldview. But but it's often kind of validated by a sense of well science says kind of thing, even when it often doesn't. You know, it's a bit like the many the many things that Einstein apparently said if you listen to quotes on the Internet. But this kind of rationalist materialist world view has denigrated and devalued subjective experience for decades. So helping people to find their way back towards a valuable subjective experience is harder culturally because you have to kinda do some work to help people understand why it's useful. And then you've gotta go into the territory of helping them also understand that even, like, once because when people reconnect with that, especially in some ways, especially if they've been disconnected from that sense of subjective, sense making, if there's a risk that they become kind of evangelists about it and completely reject the the rationalist materialist worldview.

Francis Briers [00:30:28]:

And it's and, again, it's it's a paradox. Right? Just because it feels true to you doesn't mean it's true in the objective sense of the world. That does mean it's not a valuable insight in some way, but you have to learn how to hold that carefully. Yeah. I mean, in my early kind of spiritual exploration days in my twenties, late teens now and and and, yeah, early to mid twenties where I was kinda new but doing lots of kind of spiritual exploration. I was at times, and I and as I got more mature in my own exploration, I saw I met and saw so many people who became, like, died in the world evangelists for a particular version of reality without realizing it's just a version and it's not the truth. And, actually, no one perspective has the truth. And I've seen the same with kind of, the the some of it some, again, some of the people I've met in the kind of humanist movement who are looking for a kind of, meaning oriented but science rationalist point of view.

Francis Briers [00:31:32]:

I mean, I've met people who have tried to, who have evangelically tried to convince me of the flawed perspective of of having any kind of spiritual worldview. And I just go, like, what's got what is this? It's such a weird conversation. You're you're you're meant to be a kind of, you know, all about the kind of art rationalist, you know, objective worldview. What is it what is it why do you have to convince me? Why does that matter to you if, if if if you're so confident that you're right? Like, can you not just be right? Okay. Fine. You know? You can get on with that. I'll get on with my thing. That's fine.

Francis Briers [00:32:17]:

Because I wasn't trying to convert kinda convert them or convince them or anything. They were just really interested about my point of view. I think they got interested because they could see I'm pretty rational and reasoned human being and I'm intelligent. And, you know, I can think things through in in interesting ways and and couldn't make sense of the fact that I was also deeply spiritual and have a deep sense of kind of, spiritual conviction. So there's there's something there's something there about I feel like I've kind of wiffled off down a down a rabbit hole like I do. But, there's something I think about, how we hold these things in tension. And living in that tension between, apparent contradictions in terms, I think, is really central to a mature relationship with pretty much anything, but especially if you're talking about anything big. And purpose or meaning is inherently big.

Francis Briers [00:33:06]:

So if we can't live in the kind of inherent tension of inside out, outside in, not, not performing, you know, kind of purpose taxidermy, The the all of this is in the space of, a nuanced worldview and in and, an embrace of, less binary, perspectives about what what's right and good and useful and things like that.

James Glover [00:33:38]:

I I I just wanna just wanna go take a step back actually. My my pause there, Francis, was potentially gonna be I was gonna make a deep deeply derailing comment, and I've reined myself in. And that and that the derailing comment has been this, like, almost, existential questioning of this week's, US election results.

Francis Briers [00:34:00]:

Yeah.

James Glover [00:34:01]:

And and and the questioning being of me in what do I not understand and what do I not see? And because I I I can't, to some degree, wrap my head around the the kind of the outcome and the the kind of the state of play and what what may ensue because of that. But there is obviously something I don't understand. There's some there's some and and, I mean, there's an abundance of things. We don't need to list them that I don't understand in the world. But that I'm obviously not paying attention to, I think, is probably a a more, a more, a more clear kind of observation in that. You know, when you're talking about being able to hold the tension, being able to stay in the nuance, being able to see more, there is something just in that context where I am having to challenge myself to go, there is there is more to see here. You're not seeing the you're not seeing the full picture. You're not seeing and understanding the experiences of people that are making these choices and why they're making choices.

James Glover [00:35:03]:

All you're seeing is the outcome of the choices that they're making. I'm making a whole bunch of assumptions about what that says. And in actual fact, you know, over in that environment, it is a binary environment, you know. It's there's a 2 party politics. You go this way or you go this way. But the the the the interesting, the curious part of me is going, yeah well it might be 2 party politics but it's not 2 party experience.

Francis Briers [00:35:29]:

Yes.

James Glover [00:35:29]:

It's not binary experience. And there is so much color, there is so much gray, there is so much variation, there is so much in the lived experience of the people in that country that is not being seen by just this or this. That, that that it show it's showing up in the choices that people are making. Anyway, I'm I'm definitely not trying to derail this. But it it it was just, you know, it really struck me. That's kind of been a Yeah. An internal wrestle for me this week.

Francis Briers [00:35:57]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And and and I I feel I feel lots of that myself, and I can empathize with that. I think, you know, I've got thoughts and ideas about all sorts of stuff in that space. I've been reflecting on it myself, and I'm not a political expert, and I'm not operating in that space. Even as a to some degree, I would consider myself a leadership expert. I'm a little cautious about saying that just because expert is such a big word, and it's a word I have funny feelings about. But but I'm working in the space of leadership for something like 20 years, 15, 20 years, in one form or another, you know, very explicitly for for 15 for sure.

Francis Briers [00:36:38]:

So I feel like I should have I was an expert in that. I haven't done that. I've clearly not been paying attention. But even as, you know, what I might tentatively call myself a kind of leadership expert, I I don't think politics in that way and on that stage, it it's not the kind of leadership I've been exploring. So, again, I kinda I'm not totally convinced of my own qualification to say anything meaningful about that in terms of interpretation or the why or whatever else. So there's a bit in me goes, well, let's come back to how I navigate the world in my own small way, because that's that's the only, on one level, that's the most important thing I have to do personally. I have responsibilities in my job. I have responsibilities in my family, and I have a responsibility to myself to not kinda fall down a black hole when big, difficult things happen in the world, which, to be clear, is is how I experienced that election result.

Francis Briers [00:37:42]:

Other people can disagree. I get other people to have perspectives on that. I'm I'm okay with publicly saying that's that's mine, what everyone else feels about that. So how do I stay on track? Because in many ways, that's what the work of purpose is about for us as leaders or and people is, that's, that can be part of the function in our lives of paying attention to and doing some work around purposes. It helps me stay on track in the face of whatever life throws at me. And how do I live a meaningful life perhaps especially in times when factors in my environment make that feel harder? And that that could be anything. You know? That that it's that comment's been sparked by you bringing that into the conversation, but it but in a bigger sense, it could be all sorts of things. Right? It could be just deep personal difficulties.

Francis Briers [00:38:39]:

It could be, you know, something difficult happening in my family, a personal loss, loss of a job. You know? It could be all sorts of things. So in the face of when big difficult things happen or small difficult things for that matter, but when difficult things happen, how do I stay on track? And by on track, I mean, still having a sense of peace and sanctuary on the inside, still able to take meaningful action in the outside world that feels like I'm contributing something valuable to the world, large or small, how do I stay on track inside and outside? And, you know, the the Tao Te Ching again has kinda lessons for me about that in terms of that core in that. The philosophy of that is not fighting, which is interesting when it's a philosophy so associated with many martial arts as well, including Tai Chi, which is one of the things I've studied for a lot of years. Some people are gonna go out into the world and campaign and try and have political impact in in big ways. Sometimes, you know, I really struggle with a sense of purpose at times because there's a bit of me goes, why don't I just get a job in like, I'm I don't know if I'm necessarily the best organizational, like, functional manager in in the world, you know, man leading managing teams, but I can do it. Why don't I just go and work at charity, like, get a mid mid management job. I doubt I'd be a CEO of a charity.

Francis Briers [00:40:05]:

I'm not sure I've got that kind of, perspective or or, I'm not sure my typology lends itself to that, but I'm good at managing people, good enough anyway. Yeah. Maybe that would be a more purposeful thing to do. I just go and manage manage a team in a charity where I think the chat is doing good work. So I think that there's this dance between what the world needs, what I have to offer, what I can actually get paid for, how I keep food, you know, food on the table for my family. Like, there's there's this dance of these different factors where I'm try constantly trying to work out what's the most meaningful thing I can do with the type the hours in my days. And I think part of that has to be determined by what my gifts are, what I have to offer, what I'm really good at. And there are things I'm really good at, for better and worse, that mean that I think I can have more positive impact by doing some things than others.

Francis Briers [00:41:06]:

And that's part of my constant inner dialogue about purpose and meaning and how I make a meaningful contribution in the world. And in the face of big things, like an election result like that or whatever else, it could be easy for me to go, god. I've gotta get involved in political campaigning, and I need to do this and I need to do that and need to go out and be in dialogue with people out in the world to understand why are people so dissatisfied, and why is that leading to these choices that I think are not great choices. And, you know, do do do do do. Very quickly, I could end up with 5 different jobs. None of them paid. All of them feeling like the most important thing I need to do in the world out of a sort of anxious sense of, oh, shit. What just happened? And what you know? And I'm not saying I don't wanna do any of that or I'm just gonna go, oh, well, that's happened and kinda get on with my life as if it and and just hope it doesn't hurt me or whatever.

Francis Briers [00:41:57]:

It's not about living in kind of willful ignorance either. But there is something about keeping an even keel because if I don't keep an even keel, then my choices are more likely to be flawed. Making choices from my kinda anxious, fearful, knee jerk place is rare rarely creates good choices. That's my experience. That's what the research around, cognition tells us. Like, there's all sorts of things that make an argument for not doing that. So if I can use a sense of a clearer sense of purpose and meaning to help me keep an even keel, then it becomes mutually reinforcing in a really useful way because I go, well, okay. This helps me keep an even keel.

Francis Briers [00:42:40]:

From that place of an even keel, I keep making making better choices. From making better choices, I feel happier in myself because I'm I'm doing stuff that feels good to me, partly because I'm using my skills and talents, and I'm making an impact in the world that feels in integrity to me. There's only so much that we can do in the in the span of our lives, in the span of our influence. And, so there's something there for me about.

James Glover [00:43:04]:

And there there are almost 2 two two elements that, that I'm kind of hearing here. 1, we, you know, we've started to use this language of choice. Right? So choice and the and then the the the kind of interconnection between purpose and choice. And part of that I think is is the perspective that purpose can create, as in it can help you find a different perspective in those moments where maybe you are you are drawn to a different state or that that there are emotions that are at play. Purpose can help you help you find a place to see things slightly differently and to be able to find a perspective that enables a different type of choice. But we have we have in no way, shape, or form talked about your journey to a, kind of get to this point where where where where your kind of experience, your understanding, your clarity around, you know, this kind of principle exists. Apart from you've touched upon it a little bit in terms of this kind of journey of spirituality. And I and I'm I guess I'm really interested for us just to take a moment and go what almost what was the meaning that you were searching for in that journey of spirituality? And to some degree, can that can that be the jumping off point for us exploring where you are now at with purpose? Like, how does it, how are you utilizing it, in in this moment in the way that you just described? Like, what what is what is the real interaction of that for you?

Francis Briers [00:44:34]:

Yeah. Okay. So so I'm gonna bounce around a little bit, but touch back into some of the things we've already talked about. So one that's something that's on the surface, you know, when you talk about the journey of purpose and and the, you know, like, turning point moments in that or, you know, like, what's what's led me here. If I think of what I'm talented at, like, what my skills are so I've talked about, you know, that that's part of that something being meaningful and purposeful for me is is it if I bend myself out of shape to do something that I think is more purposeful in in a way that means I'm not using the the the the inherent talents and skills that I've got, and in a way that is likely to be kinda disengaging and dissatisfying on some sort of fundamental, like, almost like more of a felt sense visceral dissatisfying on some sort of fundamental almost like more of a felt sense visceral level because I'm doing stuff that's difficult, unsatisfying, frustrating. Like, no matter how outside purposeful that is, I'm not convinced of that really being kind of what we're really aiming for when we talk about purpose. So, again, it's inside out, outside in. So from that inside out perspective, part of why I'm good at what I do, so the heart of what I do a lot is is facilitation and coaching, and particularly facilitation with the group.

Francis Briers [00:45:51]:

So facilitation of learning or or or or exec team facilitation, and kind of team coaching. Part of what makes me good at working, particularly in groups, so some of it is practice. I trained originally as an actor. There's a whole whole story there. We're gonna what that was and how I moved away from it and, you know, things like that. But so being in front of a room and reading a group and interacting with a group to create an experience is something I have a lot of practice at. But it actually starts further back than that that I I was bullied quite a lot as a kid, and I was a sensitive kid, I think. And, so I ended up with, like many people who would have experienced something like that, a kind of social hypervigilance, like constantly tracking the behavior around me and the power dynamics in a group because I don't wanna be at the bottom of the pile because I've experienced that a lot when I'm small.

Francis Briers [00:46:47]:

So part of what makes me really good at my job, both as a facilitator but also as a kind of organizational consultant, when I walk into groups, organizational groups, even not facilitation, but, you know, like consulting where we've got multiple stakeholders in the room, and it's not all conscious. It's not like I'm kinda sitting there in a kind of Machiavellian way mapping out, oh, this is the most powerful person. A lot of it's just instinctive. How I operate in those spaces is significantly based on a kind of now tame, thankfully, because I've done my work to kind of heal as best I can. But there's a kind of there's still a a a an an inherent social hypervigilance that is hardwired into me from childhood that is now a kind of tame hypervigilance that helps me read group behavior and group dynamics instinctively in a way that someone else who doesn't have that history wouldn't. That's a superpower that comes from a wound. If I don't use that superpower, then I suspect I'm gonna feel less of a sense of meaning and less of sense of purpose, not least of all because the suffering hasn't turned into something meaningful if I'm not using it. Yeah.

Francis Briers [00:48:00]:

I've just been relistening to or listening to I've read it before, but I'm listening to it now. Man's Search for Meaning by the I'm about

James Glover [00:48:07]:

to say exactly the same thing. Yeah. Go ahead.

Francis Briers [00:48:09]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of one of one of the things he talks about as, like, the kind of core principles of meaning is is that that one's suffering the suffering can be meaningful, and that's part of what gives, human human beings a sense of meaning in their in their life.

James Glover [00:48:28]:

But we that we don't need a tensionless life.

Francis Briers [00:48:31]:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, go back to the Buddha again, you know, or or or, who who's the guy who wrote the road less traveled, Peck, you know, which is a very famous book from, you know, the kind of golden age of of of, personal growth in some ways. You know, the first literally the first sentence of of the road less traveled is life is hard. Like, in Buddhist philosophy, the the the first principle of of Buddhism is life is suffering. Like, these opening gambits don't come from nowhere. Like, difficulty is not optional in life.

Francis Briers [00:49:09]:

It's gonna be hard sometimes. So how do we face into that difficulty with grace? I think part of it is that we we take the difficult moments, not not necessarily at the time. You can't always do it at the time. Sometimes you just gotta survive it. But if afterwards, it can become integrated into your character as as something that you can draw on, then I think that helps to make even the hardest moments more meaningful in the long run. And that's gotta be part of purpose. So I need to bring that in because because I mentioned, you know, skills and talents. And and for me, that's that's quite, in you know, that's been part of my struggle, like I say, with with a sense of purpose, especially when I get more outside in in how I think about it.

Francis Briers [00:49:53]:

So I can very easily start to go, but I you know, you know, facilitating leadership development. How meaningful is that really? Should I just go and work in a sustainability charity, you know, like or whatever. You know? But, actually, part of how I keep grounding myself in a sense of purpose it is it does come out of that understanding also of what are my skills? What have I got to give give the world? Because if that's not part of the equation as well as the external impact, if that's not part of the equation, then I think I'm missing something. So, you know, one of the other places that I go to is for solace and and the the Tauto Ching that I mentioned a few times is written in in short prose poems. It's 81 short prose poems. And poetry is something that helps me ground myself in a sense of purpose. And, also, it's part of how I sense make as a process is sometimes I write poetry. But it's also one of those things that I find nourishing sometimes, a particular poem which really speak to me.

Francis Briers [00:50:56]:

It's like it cracks something open in me that I hadn't even realized it started to become ossified. You know, something in me has started to become brittle, and sometimes the right poem just cracks that open in a way that helps me soften my edges and come back into contact with myself and the world in a way that's, nourishing and life giving. But, also, part of why I love poetry is because I think it helps us to express. It helps us to write something down, to to kinda do that pinning down with words, but to do so in a way that is not concretized, to do so in a way that still has interpretation and fluidity inherent within it. I actually wrote a poem about that. So I share that poem and then there's a couple of other poems by some someone else that I wanna share that that connect to my my story of purpose. So this this one is by me. It's called navigating by poetry.

Francis Briers [00:51:53]:

Poetry can enable the navigation of nuance, the mapping of emotion. In poetry, we can describe the indescribable, speak the unspeakable. Through poetry, we evoke a way of being and reveal a way of seeing. If you want to know, read history. If you want to understand, read poetry. So that I wrote as a kind of try I was trying to express what poetry does, you know, what what it can do for us in terms of expressing expressing that unexpressible in a way that points to something meaningfully that others might go, oh, I get it, but doesn't it doesn't perform the taxidermy. Right? It doesn't kinda pin it down from every angle and kill it.

James Glover [00:52:41]:

That's exactly where my my my brain was going is, you know, you are you're you're in the forest and you're and you're seeing and experiencing the soul. You are not trying to kill the thing and stuff it so it can live on your mantelpiece and be be next to it. Be and that and that what I was experiencing, not in only the way in which you positioned the poem, but as you were reading the poem is I was experiencing space and kind of expansiveness and, like freedom, freedom of expression. Like, those are those are exactly the kind of the meaningful type experiences that just come from within. And so I love the way in which you you wrestled with the taxidermy by writing a poem. So I'm writing it down, but what I'm writing is to try and express the expansiveness in the space of the forest experience.

Francis Briers [00:53:31]:

Yeah. Yeah. And and and when I shared that moment before, you know, where I was talking to someone about purpose and they were talking about what you know, how purpose could could power your action activity and things, in a way that they, you know, they weren't wrong, to be clear.

James Glover [00:53:46]:

Yeah.

Francis Briers [00:53:46]:

Yeah. You know, there is a way that when your work feels really driven by purpose, we often can find energy reserves that we that we didn't know were possible. Like, that's true. And that is part of the benefit of articulating purpose as a leader for yourself and with others. But when I, you know, when I was in a moment where I think I was burnt out, or certainly in that in that territory of burnout and questioning really hard questioning kind of how helpful kind of the the the narrative around purpose was culturally. I came across this poem. I'd read it before, but it meant something different to me in that moment. It's by a guy called Jim Dodge.

Francis Briers [00:54:26]:

He's writing I really like. He wrote a great, novel called Stone Junction that was really magical and sparked my imagination, but he also wrote this book of poetry called Rain on the River. And, I came across this poem at that time, and it it just kinda broke my heart in a in a in a way that felt like it helped somehow. It's called job application. I want to lie on an open hillside and feel everything, Quicken in the light. I don't want to think, judge, decide. It's been a tough winter. Vicky's father died in November.

Francis Briers [00:55:05]:

A month later, I found my brother dead in his Klamath cabin. Then a month of rain, flooding, slides. Down in the frost seared garden, ravens perched on the scarecrow. I want to flop down on a grassy hillside and let it all rise on the heat. Give myself utterly to the flourishing, bury my face in the masked poppies, turn my face to the sky. If I must work, may the task match my flagging power and meet my true ambition, to feel the roots dig deeper while I imagine new colors for a flower.

James Glover [00:55:46]:

The bit that just, just hit me like a left hook from Mike Tyson, which is a really strange analogy based on the fact that you just shared such a beautiful poem, was the was the if I have to work and the meet my ambition piece because, again, there's just a like, there's a a one there's a really wonderful chat or I experienced it as a really wonderful challenge in that. Like, what is the work, and what is the ambition? You know, like, what how how how are you referencing or calibrating those things in a way that matches matches matches the moment? And you said beautifully before, like, what does the world need of me? I'm like, what can I bring to the world? And, like, what what do I get paid for? You know, there's that they're kind of almost icky icky guy like Yeah. Like picture picture painted. But one of our previous guests talked about purpose for them was about what does the world need from me, and what can I bring to the world? And that that part of that poem just felt like it really spoke there, but it was a it was a it was an it was a wonderful challenge. Yeah. Are you are you are you feeling that? Are you paying attention to that? Do you know even where you are right now and and and what you can give?

Francis Briers [00:57:07]:

Yeah. And and there's and there's something I think part of what spoke to me in that was is that phrase, I think, that that hit me in lots of ways too amongst amongst others. But if I must work, may the task match my flagging power and meet my true ambition? And and there's something about that that sense of flagging power, which probably lots of us have felt at at times, but it doesn't feel like it's only a sometimes feeling too somehow. You know? Like, inherently, like I say, life is hard. Like, I'm hugely privileged in all sorts of ways, so I'm not trying to kinda sell myself as, you know, suffering. But I I'm also my absolute conviction, having explored this quite a lot, is that comparing wounds doesn't help anyone. Just because someone else is in more pain than me doesn't make my pain go away.

James Glover [00:57:59]:

Yeah. Or lessen it.

Francis Briers [00:58:00]:

Yeah. Exactly. So, yes, there can be important moments of, like, pers getting perspective. Like, actually, it's it's not you you've not got it that bad. You know? That can be a useful thing to think sometimes, but it can also be a really unhelpful kind of intervention self intervention to that that squashes the allowing of my own of being with my own pain or difficulty. And the fact is all of us are gonna experience pain and difficulty, and for for many of us, that's gonna be not infrequent. I think if I if my sense of purpose doesn't include within it some sense of something that is a sanctuary when I'm in pain, then I think it's incomplete. And I think too often, purpose is framed in terms of something thing of achievement and ambition.

Francis Briers [00:58:57]:

So it is I see it more often used as a kind of, crop to get myself back into motion when I'm struggling rather than a place of sanctuary when I'm struggling.

James Glover [00:59:11]:

Mhmm.

Francis Briers [00:59:11]:

And, yeah, sometimes I need to kinda give myself a kick up the bone. I go, come on. Pick yourself back up and go again. Yeah. Of course. But if that's the response every time, that is what leads to burnout. And as I say, I think if if inherent within a sense of purpose there isn't some some tender space of sanctuary, then I think it's flawed. And that's probably the bit I see most often missing.

James Glover [00:59:38]:

Do you know what, Francis? I think that you have just beautifully articulated another powerful and wonderful paradox, which is, you know, you talked about purpose being the thing that enables us to stay on track, but also it's the thing that should create space for sanctuary. And both of those things can be true. And I think, I think that that sentiment should be the thing that we leave people we leave people with in this conversation, in that, this kind of the the the true ambition as as if we can if we can quote Jim Dodge there around the the the conversation that we're having in this podcast is about helping people think, feel more meaningfully. And for for people just to kinda go away and go, but how does that land with you? How does the the kind of the sense of meaning and contribution, connection, purpose, if you want to use it use that language, create opportunity for being able to stay on track, but also sanctuary for when you just really need it. That I think, that's a wonderful way to be able to spend some time in people's days today.

Francis Briers [01:00:51]:

Yeah. So so in the spirit of that, let me share one more poem from Jim Dodge. I've got others I could share on my own, but this one is so beautiful, and and Jim Dodge is right and, you know, he's captured something. Because it it speaks to that space of sanctuary, and, like, somehow it it holds that tension that you've just described, the space sanctuary and how we stay on track and keep in motion. It's called LoveFind. After the Oklahoma City bombing, search and rescue dogs were flown in with their handlers from all over the US. But when the dogs couldn't find any survivors, they became disconsolate. And after another day of nothing but dead bodies, if they'd even search, it was desultory at best.

Francis Briers [01:01:40]:

So the handlers began taking turns hiding in the rubble, letting the dogs find them alive. It breaks my heart every time I read that poem, and and there's something in that that feels like you know, it's in some way, the act is massive. And in other ways, it's a very small act, And there's something that in the tenderness of helping those dogs stay hopeful somehow. You know? Like, how do we do that with each other? How do we spot the moment when that's what's needed? It's not the big, hairy goal, audacious goal. It's just the I'm gonna go hide in the rubble and let you find me because that might just help you get through today and and turn around tomorrow and do the big, difficult things. There's something about that that really, yeah, breaks my heart open, really beautifully.

James Glover [01:02:37]:

Yeah. I I just feel like the power of being able to see what people need and to be able to bring that selflessly in the moment so that they it just enables them to be able to move move forward with care, with love.

Francis Briers [01:02:54]:

And those can be very small acts and yet hugely meaningful.

James Glover [01:03:01]:

Amen. Francis, thank you. Like, the journey that we've just been on in this conversation from, like, yeah, the industrialization of purpose to, like, the heartfelt poetry of staying on track and creating sanctuary and everything in between. Thank you so much for for coming on and, just sharing your wisdom and experience so so openly, so wonderfully. Thank you.

Francis Briers [01:03:24]:

Yeah. No real pleasure. Thanks for the conversation. It's been lovely, James.

James Glover [01:03:30]:

Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitable soul dot com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.