Episode #28: Anna Lelia Sandoghdar
Purpose in Modern Work Environments: Transforming Meaningful Employee Engagement
Today on The Excitable Soul Podcast, we are delighted to bring you an episode that promises to inspire and enlighten.
We have a very special guest joining us—Anna Lelia Sandoghdar. Anna is an insightful organizational psychologist whose ideas and research could very well spark some profound reflections in each of you.
She has a fascinating journey that has taken her from a solitary move to a UK boarding school at the age of 16 to her recent completion of a PhD at King's College London, focusing on the very essence of purpose and meaning in the workplace. What makes her story even more compelling are the poignant influences of her parents, both brilliant PhDs themselves, who instilled in her a relentless curiosity and a pursuit of knowledge over material gain.
Anna shares her insights into systemic ways psychologists can make a wider impact, beyond traditional one-on-one therapy. Her story is a beautiful blend of personal growth, scientific inquiry, and heartfelt dedication to making the world a better place through thoughtful, meaningful work.
So, sit back, get comfortable, and prepare for an enriching conversation that might just shift the way you think about your work, your aspirations, and your sense of self-worth. Welcome to The Excitable Soul Podcast.
Let’s get started!
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Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:44]:
So let's get going, shall we? Hello. Today, we are thrilled to welcome Anna Leilia Sandogda, an organizational psychologist whose journey is deeply rooted in exploring purpose and meaning at work. Having recently completed her PhD from King's College London, Anna combines academic expertise with a genuine passion for helping people find greater fulfillment in their professional lives. Through her research, Anna has delved into how organizations can foster a sense of purpose and improve the meaningfulness of work for their employees. But beyond the data and the theories, she's driven by a personal mission to transform workplace cultures, helping leaders and teams build environments where people truly feel belonging and engaged. Anna brings a unique mix of academic rigor and heartfelt dedication to this work. Her insights and personal journey will help us all think more deeply about how purpose can shape not just individual queers, but entire organizations. I hope you enjoy.
James Glover [00:01:50]:
Alright, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to another episode of the Excitable Soul podcast. We've got Anna here with us today. Hey, Anna. How are you doing?
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:01:57]:
I'm good. Thank you. I'm excited for today's conversation. A little bit more.
James Glover [00:02:02]:
Well, welcome. Welcome. We, we were just talking before we started about, like, trying to get, you know, podcast etiquette and not cut across one another. And then we both decided that's not gonna work because there's too much energy, too much ADHD. And so we're we're gonna dance across each other in this conversation today.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:02:20]:
Yes. Absolutely. I'm ready to dance.
James Glover [00:02:23]:
Amazing. So, you bring a really kind of unique perspective to this purpose conversation, Anna, in that, you know, not only is it something that, you are deeply passionate about, like, you work in the world of of purpose, but it's obviously had a significant impact on you in terms of the choices and decisions that you're making and have made so that you've kind of ended up where you are. So I guess before we dive into the journey, I'm just kind of interested in how you make sense of what purpose is, like, where like, the concept in its own right. What does that look, feel, and sound like from your perspective?
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:03:00]:
Oh, starting off with the big question. I mean, for me, purpose and I don't I should probably have, like, the one big academic definition that I I use, but I I I don't have, you know, just just one kind of sentence that would sum it up for me. But I think for me, it's this intangible long term goal is not the right word, but just this this long term cause that you commit your life to, that lets you kind of cut through the noise and really defines for yourself based on your own experiences and strengths and interests, how you want to make a contribution to the world. And that can be as big or small as as you want. You know? It doesn't have to be saving lives, doctors without borders level. It can be just I want to make sure that I leave a really positive lasting impression on the people close to me. And, you know, I'm trying to make sure that I can help other people find their sense of purpose or help businesses make sure that their employees can have a sense of purpose, because I just believe that it kind of drives all our other well-being, really. And and the way that I started getting into the, I guess, world of purpose is, during my masters at the LSE, there was a class called happiness.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:04:29]:
And I would say I'm always pretty much my baseline mood is always happy, I would say. So, I was just trying to really understand how you can make other people happy. And, you know, a lot of that is usually about kind of, like, positive emotions and so on. And I guess focusing on pleasure, I think, a lot of times. But, really, this course ended up really surprising me because, yes, half of it was about pleasure, but the other half was really about purpose. And I think, you know, purpose is a very intangible thing, and I think I'd always had a very strong sense of purpose. But for the first time during that course, I realized, you know, that you can really define what purpose is and that there have been studies that measure people's levels of purpose or can kind of show how purpose is a great precursor to all these other positive, things in life. So I think that's that's kind of where it started, and then it just hooked me ever since, I guess.
James Glover [00:05:29]:
Amazing. And there's, there's something I find really interesting about, the kind of the parallels between happiness and purpose in that both of them seem to be outcomes of other stuff. Like, you don't you can't just chase purpose, like, for purpose sake in the same way that you can't just chase happiness for happiness sake. Like, happiness is the byproduct of being able to connect with and action do some really important stuff. And so you have to think about what those things are in order to be able to get that kind of outcome and byproduct. And there's something really similar about that for purpose as well, which people are kind of like, what is my purpose in life? And, you know, how do I find my purpose? And they kinda hold this thing up as being like the source. And you're like, what? I'm not so sure. That's the mechanism.
James Glover [00:06:19]:
The mechanism is what are you doing to be purposeful, and how is purpose the outcome of understanding some other stuff? I don't know. What what do you make of that? That seems like a bit of a parallel from for in my brain, but I don't know whether that that kind of speaks to you.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:06:33]:
Yeah. No. I think that's a very good observation, and I think that sometimes it's almost like a as you say, like a chicken and egg situation. You know? What do you start with first? And I think the thing with purpose is also that I mean, it can change. Right? It can change according to the life phase that you're in. And, you know, you don't have to have just one. There might be an kind of overarching theme that, you know, is running through all your different types of purposes. But I think the what it seems like you're saying is that it can sometimes be a struggle when you're almost focusing too much on finding that core purpose that you think that this is going to be the the answer to everything.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:07:11]:
And, really, I think if you focus on just your values as a person, and you you do that for a long time and you consistently follow your kind of intuition and your gut feeling, you will automatically have a, you know, kind of your experiences will start to add up to a point where you can then see that there is a consistent theme, and that theme is likely to be related to your purpose. But I think to just start right away and say, oh my god. I need to have
James Glover [00:07:43]:
a clear sense of thing. It has to be this thing. Like, what is this thing? Yeah. For sure. So I I think that you're in a really unique position for us to maybe kind of flush some stuff out here, which is, you know, ultimately, you are a researcher on this on this topic. And so by very definition, it's like, what are the measurable elements of it? Yet in the first five minutes here, you've kind of gone, gut feel, intangible, intuition, like the kind of the felt nature of it. So help help people who are listening kind of square that circle. Like, the difference between I if if you can't measure it, it can't be real to it's actually a really deeply intuitive kind of experience.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:08:27]:
Well, I I think I have to preempt this by saying, yes. I'm a researcher, but my research is qualitative. And I don't know if if purpose lends itself that much to quantitative research for exactly the reasons that you've you've highlighted. I think there is such a subjective and deep, personal element to it that I'm not sure that measuring it is always the best form. I think, you know, Brene Brown says stories are data with a soul. Is that the right way around? Or data is stories with a soul? No. Stories are data with a soul. Sorry.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:09:10]:
And and I think I I I think I completely believe that. So, there are, of course, ways that you can try and measure how how aware someone might be of their own sense of purpose, But I don't know how helpful that is. I think, really, the the the sense of purpose can be so intangible that it only really comes out in these deep personal conversations. And I think a lot of times, people actually have a sense of purpose without being aware that it is a sense of purpose, or without being able to articulate it. So I think it sometimes just comes out in these these conversations that might be about completely different things. And interestingly in my research, when I ask someone, you know, how meaningful do you find your work, they find that really difficult to answer. But if I ask them, tell me about the contribution in your work. Tell me whether you feel that your work is allowing you to be your most authentic self.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:10:10]:
Tell me about, whether your work is allowing you to consistently learn and grow. Then, you know, you kind of add up all those different elements, and I say, okay. So you do find your work meaningful because, I mean, that's, you know, that's pretty much what it's made out of as a dimension. So
James Glover [00:10:26]:
Yeah. That's kind of that's the, that's the aggregation of all of those of all of those bits, like, kind of delivering the outcome. Yeah. Nice. And I love that kind of just ownership of, well, maybe measurement isn't the thing here actually or, you know, being able to, quantitatively measure isn't the thing because how much does that actually serve us? And, how much more important could it be just to be able to surrender to the fact that, you know, we're talking about soulful experiences. We're talking about emotional data here, and that's as rich and as significant and as influential as anything that you might be able to put a number on. And let's just be okay with that.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:11:06]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I took I I understand the needs that I mean, especially, let's say, in a business environment that people would want to have some kind of quantitative measure of, you know, how many what's the percentage of our employees that feel that their work is purposeful? So, yes, of course, you can ask those questions, but I think it has to be combined with digging deeper and understanding what are the mechanisms that are allowing people to feel purposeful or, you know, is there maybe there's even a common theme across, let's say, the type of employees that we have of a purpose that they share and how can we utilize that and so on. So, it's not that I'm against measuring, but I think I'm cautious of, you know, the extent to which measuring can can always be the end answer for everything.
James Glover [00:11:51]:
Nice. Lovely. Thank you. And thank you for allowing me to kinda hijack the conversation immediately and kinda get into a bit of the the the kind of the granularity of the territory around your your work. But I'm keen to just, get an understanding of how when you reflect back over your journey to date, like, where and and how do you see meaning and purpose having influenced some of the choices that you're making either intentionally or unconsciously? Yeah.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:12:22]:
I mean, these are the questions I was scared of. We got it. I no. Not scared. But, you know, I it's it's interesting because I'm usually asking those types of questions, and then you realize that actually you don't necessarily reflect on your own sense of purpose that often. But, yeah, I think I mean, first of all, I do think that a lot of people, and maybe not for everyone, but certainly for me, my childhood had a huge, impact on, I guess, how how I see the world, which then informs your sense of purpose. So, you know, I come from a multicultural family. My mother is German.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:13:00]:
My my dad is Iranian. And, I grew up in Germany and Switzerland, and we lived in the States for a while. And then I went from from the age of 16, I went to school in the UK. So I think there was a lot of exposure to different types of thinking and different cultures. And, really, I think that was what started my fascination with trying to understand different people's perspectives, their emotions, where they come from, and realizing that I had this ability. Maybe it wasn't even an ability in the beginning. I think it was just an interest in mediating between those perspectives. And, you know, I think that kind of started my, I guess, my path in psychology.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:13:43]:
And then I do remember very clearly for the longest time, I just wanted to go into clinical psychology psychology. I wanted to be a therapist. And so I remember clearly that during the end of my my time in my bachelor's at university, I realized that I had this drive to help people, but that it didn't necessarily need to be on a one to one basis.
James Glover [00:14:13]:
And,
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:14:13]:
you know, there were other things that were interesting me when in my my other modules about organizations and so on. And so I I remember, I think that was the first moment where I really became very aware that I had a sense of purpose, but that the way that you live out that sense of purpose doesn't have to always be, you know, according to that plan that you had 5 years ago. And so I I really wrestled with it because there was this part where I realized, no. I think I want to go and, you know, have a have a clearer, understanding of businesses and how I can help in businesses. But then there was this, this voice that kept telling you me that, like, oh, but then are you truly helping people? Because surely the impact that you can have, you know, working with a patient 1 to 1 might be larger than if you're being hired by an organization, which maybe ultimately they're hiring you because they think that you can elevate people's productivity rather than a genuine care for people's well-being. And I think those types of questions were the first time that I realized that I had this internal need to help people, but also this, like, almost moral part of it where I I wanted to help people for the right reasons, and I was trying to grapple with whether I'm doing it for the right reasons or not and so on. So that's that's just one example that I could come up with. I don't know if that's answering your question.
James Glover [00:15:41]:
Well, the the, the the thing that kind of I'm really curious about, the thing that kinda drew my attention is when you you use that language of sense of purpose, and you kinda use it so naturally in that it didn't feel like it was a, I guess it goes back to the intangible bit. Right? It didn't feel something solid that was truly understood, but it definitely was having an influence. And there's this kind of sense of, I wanted to help people, but it's more than that. And and the stress testing of it was, I thought I wanted to do this thing, but now that I'm actually confronted with this and I've and I've experienced a little bit more, I have this sense of, no, it's beyond that. It's more than that. But I still don't know what it is, but I know it's not that. And so almost even in these kind of more formative experiences, the influence around choice and decision making was starting to come to the fore because you are open to, I guess, this sense of of of intuition and the acknowledgment that just helping people isn't a sense of purpose. It's actually what's my contribution in that.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:16:43]:
Right. Absolutely. And I think what yeah. The key thing is the intuition bit because I think in the end, really, what that taught me was to listen to myself and say, okay. But what is it that is suddenly drawing me away from what I previously thought I wanted to do to this new exciting opportunity? And what am I trying like, how how would my life be different if I took these 2 different paths? And what is it about these different paths that I like or don't like? And I think in the end, if you ask yourself all these questions, you really do distill your sense of purpose to its kind of core elements. And you understand that, you know, a, you can always come back to other choices. You know? No choice is written in stone. And, b, you you you realize, you know, what feels authentic and what is kind of the core essence of who you are and how can you best let that shine through.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:17:38]:
And for me, I realized that, actually, I wanted to maybe not necessarily go as deep with one person into all of their life's problems, but actually think about more systemically, you know, what can what can psychologists do in order to, help people experience their lives on a meaningful level. And, you know, we spend so much time at work, so I felt actually in my case, I think I'm better suited to helping people through that method rather than 1 on 1.
James Glover [00:18:10]:
Yeah. Amazing. So that there seems to me like if you if we kind of if we go back to the kind of the start of the question, there's something here about the journey that that you have been on and how those kind of formative years shaped your curiosity around people and how people work and what's important to them, with with kind of a narrow focus that ultimately kinda got blown up and opened out the more you explored it the more you explored it and the more you kinda kept yourself open. Where and how else do you think those kind of early formative years started to shape the kind of the meaningful nature of the experiences that you have today? So if, like, helping people was one of them, what else kind of emerges for you when you think back over your timeline and your journey? Like, what are the moments that you that really feel like they've shaped who you are in the world today?
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:19:02]:
Yeah. I mean, I think there's there's moments and then, I guess, there's people. And, sometimes it's actually almost hard to separate those 2 because, you know, one shapes the other. I think for me, first of all, my parents, I have a very close relationship to my family, and both my parents, are well, my mother doesn't practice in academia anymore, but both of them actually did a PhD. And both of them had this very kind of rigorous way of of thinking about the world and both of them in completely different fields. My dad is a is a physicist. My mom was a philosopher. So, you know, I could end the spectrum.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:19:42]:
But I think both of them in their own way always had a very core sense of purpose themselves. And I saw through their role modeling that the way that they approach their work was never in endeavor of, you know, financial profit, for example. I mean, of course, you need that element to a certain extent, but, you know, that was never what was driving their decision making. And I saw them, you know, sometimes turn down certain jobs or pursue certain avenues that were just purely based out of their personal curiosity and wanting to learn more and wanting to contribute to something. So for my dad, it was to science. For my mother, it ended up being much more, I guess, similar to me to people, and she she now, you know, helps people within academia kind of restructure the the, I guess, academic experience and so on. So, I think from a very early age without even realizing at the time, I still had this role model of what it looks like to pursue your sense of purpose. And, you know, also, it comes through in small things such as, like, conversations that you have as a family when it comes to deciding, you know, what to choose in your a levels or what to do at university.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:20:56]:
It was never like, oh, well, why don't you study this because, you know, there's career opportunities. It was always just, well, what is interesting you? What do you think you're good at? What do you like doing? And these really kind of deep conversations about just who you are as a person and what you can maybe do with it and, never any kind of judgment on, oh, this is a good career path or this is a bad career path and so on. And then I think another thing was maybe just if I'm thinking about a moment. When I was 16, as I said, I I started studying in the UK, and I did that on my own. I just I don't know why, but I just decided when I was 15 that I needed to go to boarding school and that it needed to be in the UK and that I wanted to basically leave everything behind and just go do my own thing. So, yeah, that was probably a very formative moment. And I think, again, in the moment, I didn't realize what that was doing to me. But looking back, the fact that I moved by myself to just start a new life in a new country at the age of 16 probably did have a very big impact on also how I see myself as.
James Glover [00:22:05]:
Alright. So, the Hogwarts adventure and, becoming a wizard, was was, you know, kind of one of those significant moments that really sort of shaped who you are and the kind of the way in which you, you know, view the world now. One of the things that always strikes me when we talk about purpose and the the kind of the significance of a sense of purpose is that, ultimately you're making a contribution to something that feels really important and significant and can define a sense of self worth from the inside out. Like, it's not about necessarily trying to meet external expectations. It's about you knowing who you are and feeling that that kind of intrinsic value in relation to to those things. How do you make sense of that for yourself now? Like, where you are in the journey given those kind of formative experiences? Like, where does your sense of self worth come from, and how do you define it now?
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:23:02]:
Yeah. This is a interesting question, and I I would be very I would be very impressed with people who can come up with an answer right away because I I wish I had one clear answer. I feel like sense of a sense of self worth is something you feel, but really getting to the bottom of where it comes from is quite tricky actually. I mean, definitely all the experiences that I I talked about previously and including, you know, also experiences with my family. I do think that that kind of set me up with a pretty healthy sense of self worth, kind of from the from the beginning. And I was I was lucky to just have kind of this unconditional support around me. But I think in my kind of later years, it definitely developed when I started realizing that I was good at something that I enjoyed doing. You know? So I you know, once I started my studies at university and I realized that I was not only enjoying it and interested in it and putting effort into it, but I was actually getting positive feedback for that.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:24:12]:
I do think that that had kind of an exponential effect on my sense of self worth because it made me realize that, you know, my, I guess, my gut feeling of what I wanted to do was leading me into the right direction. It doesn't mean that it's all positive or that, you know, you never have moments of self doubt or that you don't have negative feedback. But I think it just made me kind of trust that I was doing something worthwhile and that I was on some kind of right track. And even if that track were to change or, you know, that I that I had navigated certain complexities enough times to know that if there is a challenge that comes up in one way or another, you will face it and you will get through it. And I think, you know, that can range from the smallest things such as suddenly living in, like, you know, Europe's biggest city. And you've you've done it for 6 months and you realize, oh, actually, that's cool. Like, I've been here for 6 months, and I now know how to get the tube. And I now need you know, like, little things that I'm sure every person has to, as I say, kind of more, I guess, concrete examples to do with, I guess, where how you spend your time and where you put your your priorities and your efforts.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:25:35]:
So I think, yeah, it probably I I think I probably started having a real sense of self and self worth maybe from, like, the age of 20 onwards, I would say. I think before that also, the teenage years can be tricky, I think, for anyone. No matter what environment you're in, I think there's always a sense of doubt because you're comparing yourself to all these other people around you and everyone wants to be cool and, you know, the typical teenage stuff. So, so, yeah, I probably once I I started realizing that people were really interested in I don't know. Maybe what I had just what I thought. You know? I mean, this is in stupid little ways, like, just writing an essay and think someone saying, oh, interesting point. And you're saying, yeah. That's an interesting point.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:26:23]:
Thank you.
James Glover [00:26:25]:
You know, there's so much, so many kind of really big concepts in there, Anna, to kinda wrestle with in terms of, use the language of realising that, the the stuff that you were interesting was actually worthwhile, like and and being able to define what worthwhile meant. And, and not only that, but this idea of not only was it worthwhile, but I was good at it. And, and so there's something here about how you define worthwhile has to come back down to something that you feel is meaningful by very definition. Right? Because it has associated with it. And then there's something about being good at it as in people were interested in my perspective. So I have a kind of a unique view I offered that, and the feedback was, that's useful. So there's a sense of contribution to some again. And I'm and I love that the kind of the tipping point or the shift here was, you know, there's a period of time where comparison is everything.
James Glover [00:27:28]:
Like, what what are the what are your peers doing? What is cool? Like, what is what what are those expectations that you're trying to meet? And then all of a sudden, you're like, I'm really interested in this, and I'm actually, creating a level of competence around it. Like, I'm doing these things repeatedly, whether it's kind of, schoolwork or whether or not it's kind of get catching the tube. So there's some confidence that's being built in that. I've there's repeatability in that. I've acknowledged now that there's something that I really care about, and I feel like I'm making a contribution to it, and it's worthwhile. And now that's then sort of started to, I guess, build the momentum that's led to what you are today.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:28:03]:
Yeah. A 100%. I mean, I think the, you know, the research has shown that the competence is a huge part of feeling, I guess, just on a broader level of meaningful existence. Right? Like feeling like you can express your full potential. Whatever that potential is, first, it's the first step is I guess realizing, you know, where your natural tendencies to or your natural strengths are and your interests. So it's not only, you know, I might be good at something that I don't care about, but, you know, finding kind of the the overlap between what you're interested in and and what you're good at, and then actually feeling like you're in a position to consistently work on that and actually get better. And there and that's, I guess, also where that sense of purpose comes in because you're never done. You're always continuously working towards it.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:28:55]:
And as you work towards it, it changes shape and it it starts having different facets and so on. But so then that is definitely, you know, a big part of it. And then I think it's interesting what you say about how you how you define worthwhile and against again, I think that's a really personal thing. But interestingly, it's not just personal. Right? It's also, like, we we are social animals, and the the phase of comparison might have stopped. But I think where you grow up and whether it's a cultural thing or a social thing, your idea of what is considered worthwhile will always be, to a certain extent, also influenced by what society thinks is worthwhile. So, you know, the idea of what what is a worthwhile contribution is kind of an element of a and this is not just me saying you know, speaking my own opinion. This is, my my supervisor, Katie Bailey, has just published a paper on this, which I thought was really interesting.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:29:59]:
It's kind of a combination of 3 things. It's kind of a, do I feel that my contribution is worthwhile? B, do other people think that this contribution is worthwhile? And c, am I competent in achieving that contribution? Like, do I know that I could potentially pursue it? And, again, there might not be an endpoint, but do I feel like I can somehow get closer and closer and closer to my goal? So, yeah, absolutely. Those those two elements of competence and worthwhile, I think, are are a theme that kind of runs runs through, when people try and crystallize what their sense of purpose is.
James Glover [00:30:42]:
And has, one of our previous guests, Scott Allender, who's an executive at Warner Music, he really talked about, trying to to kind of understand the sense of purposes, the need that he was trying to meet in himself, and the need that he was trying to meet in the world around him and the kind of the interconnection between those two things. And I I really felt like that was a a kind of, a a beautiful articulation of so many complex different things, which is to acknowledge that meaning and meaning making is a deeply human experience and that ultimately a sense of purpose is meeting a need for people to feel like they're making a contribution because of the fact that we are social animals. And it is about it's not just about us, it's about the people around us and the world that's around us. And so if we feel like we're meeting a need that's not just for us, but for the people around us, then it's almost like a multiplier effect in that kind of sense of self worth and value, etcetera. And I and it feels to me like there is a I don't know whether there's either research around this or you just kind of have a a perspective on it yourself, but part of the challenges that we face in kind of modern society is the deconstruction of the social communal interconnectivity. And that's almost why organizations become so critical is that in lots of different places where people would come together, they don't anymore, but the place that they still do come together is in the work environment. And so for to your point, for purpose to exist in that environment isn't just about the productivity and output of the business. It's also about the soul of human beings.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:32:26]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think so first of all, I think that kind of tension between the self and others is a inherent paradox in experiencing and maybe also achieving, if you can say, meaningfulness meaningfulness in your work, but maybe also, you know, in broader life. It doesn't have to be through work. So I think it can become tricky because as you say, you know, ideally, you would meet your own needs and the meet of meet the needs of others. Where it becomes tricky is when you are in a situation where one is kind of opposes the other. And I think that's where it becomes important to remember that purpose in the end is a dynamic construct so that certain situations will require you to either put others or yourself first. And you just have to kind of trust that through the motions of life.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:33:22]:
You're gonna go up and down and, you know, you might put one over the other and then the other, and then at some point, it averages us out. And at some point, that balance is achieved, but that balance doesn't mean that you have to have 5050 all the time. It can be 4060. So I think that's a really good way of putting it is trying to find something that allows you to do both even if it's not always exactly the same. And then to your point about organizations, I a 100% agree. I mean, there's definitely been a lot of, like, also thinkers that have, you know, not just from a from a psychology perspective, but a sociology perspective that have kind of argued, well, the decline of these kind of institutions that were giving us, a, a sense of community, but, b, also a clear sense of purpose, such as religion, and, you know, the church, has kind of led to people thinking also more about the meaningfulness of their existence. So I think if we look back, let's say, 200 years, I don't I I'm not sure I mean, of course, there were philosophers and so on, but I'm not sure that this was just like something that people were constantly talking about. Right? And now suddenly we find ourselves in an era where everyone's trying to find their why or follow their passion.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:34:38]:
And, really, I think it's come also from I mean, of course, a, our more basic needs are met. So maybe we have more capacity, mental capacity to start thinking about the more kind of the self actualization needs. But I do also think that there's an element of it, as you said, that where we got that sense of clear kind of anchoring from previously is not a source anymore, at least for a lot of people. And now we're looking towards other arenas to kind of fulfill that need for a meaningful existence and because we spend so much time at work, that's kind of the the first thing where our mind goes. And so really, you know, fostering a sense of purpose and work is not necessarily only about giving people the space in their confined job roles to do the things that they enjoy doing. It's really also about fostering the sense of belonging, a sense of shared values, a sense of, kind of shared contribution or where are we going as a group. Like, what is it that we're really trying to do as a collective? And I think if you can if you can kind of capitalize on those or capitalize is the wrong word. But if you if you can kind of, like, foster those feelings, then even if you're not a 100% fulfilled in your job role because maybe you have to do some boring admin tasks, you know, overall, you're gonna feel that your your work is worth it and that your time is worth it.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:36:09]:
Yeah.
James Glover [00:36:09]:
Yeah. And I, I've been in 2 different conversations this week with 2 separate groups of senior leaders, 2 very different organisations. And in both places, they quoted the classic j f JFK story of visiting NASA. And, you know, speaking to the to the to the janitor who's, you know, sweeping and cleaning the floor and asking him about his his wall and him saying, hey. Look. I'm just trying to put a man on the moon. And I I'm always intrigued that that story has stuck the test of time. One thing, like, the randomness of these two different conversations and that this showed up in both places, but also the significance of it in that my act, the task, my role isn't necessarily it doesn't have to define the meaning that comes with the contribution that I'm making.
James Glover [00:37:04]:
Like, my task actually is something that is part of the whole and the parts the the whole is greater than the parts. It add it aggregates up to something that is intangible. If we close that loop and go back round again, it's it becomes more than the sum of. And that feels hopeful. It feels kind of optimistic. It feels inspirational, but it also feels like it can be tangible and real. And that, you know, you will have seen as much as I would have seen that people are kind of conflating their sense of self worth or their purpose with how good they are in their job because work has such a high level of significance in their world. And that can be really quite damaging because if you have a bad day at work, then you feel bad as a person.
James Glover [00:37:58]:
Or if something goes wrong that's out of your control and out of your sphere of influence, you feel like you failed. And, and that can that can be really, really detrimental, you know, to your point on people's sense of well-being in the in the work environment.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:38:15]:
Yeah. I mean, definitely. I think I mean, that story about, putting a man on the moon, that's definitely kind of the the I guess, the most famous research paper then has been kinda trickled down. And I know that a lot of organizations are kind of using this as a I think it was KPMG that did this whole initiative where they were trying to kind of collect these stories of other peep of of their people, and they somehow came you know, you you get from very kind of individual contributions to I'm an accountant to I'm helping people face climate change. So, really, what that shows is in the end, meaningfulness is something that needs to be interpreted, which is very hopeful, I think, because it gives you the sense of hope that even if you are stuck in a bad position, and I'm not saying that there aren't also, you know, jobs or positions where it's entirely devoid of meaning, maybe if you're just consistently, I don't know, working on the same thing and you're not getting anywhere or so on. But it also opens up the opportunity of saying, you know what? I'm going to make the best of my situation, and I'm going to find the things within my control that I wanna focus on and that I wanna actively nourish and foster, that will give me a sense of meaning. So I think I I completely agree with you with that. But I I also think that that's when you kind of can get into the territory of, you know, having to make sure that you're also staying realistic or that organizations are staying realistic and not taking advantage of that.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:39:52]:
Yeah. Because, yes, it's great that the janitor said he's putting someone on the moon, but you also don't wanna get to a point where, you know, organizations are clearly exploiting people and they're saying, no. But you're doing this in the greater good of blah blah blah. And I think, you know, that's also there's some stories about WeWork, about very, very cult like behaviors that kind of arose from this sense of, no. We're all doing this for a greater cause, and we're really trying to change the world. And it's like, no. What you're doing is slightly, dubious.
James Glover [00:40:27]:
The the fine lines ever with ethics in business. Yeah. For sure. I love that. So, what I'm wondering and I'm interested now, Anna, when you look forward, you know, kinda given where you are on your journey and you think about how purpose might shape the choices and the decisions to come, like, where what does that look like for you? Where do you feel like the leaps of faith are, are on your horizon and how purpose might help you kind of go into that with with a guess and just a sense of hope and optimism of what might be?
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:41:00]:
Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting time for me because I have just kind of finished the PhD, which is a a very long and I guess I didn't realize how long it would feel, a very long process that, really requires all your mental energy and physical energy. So to come out of it when you've been focusing on one goal for so long, a very, very concrete goal to suddenly be in this space of uncertainty and and also opportunity is an interesting experience. And I think it kind of on a on a meta level, you know, my research is about purpose and meaning, and now I'm kind of confronted with my own purpose and meaning. And and it it really it really requires you to think about it in a very concrete way. Like, how do I now wanna operationalize this sense of purpose, and how can I best do that? And so I think, you know, I'm I'm consistently thinking about it. And I think to your point about it being hopeful, it does give you a sense of trust in in the future because it means for me that because I know exactly how I want to contribute, Where I do it or exactly how I do it is almost not as important. Of course, you wanna find the right job and you wanna find the right organizations and you wanna have a nice coworker and so on.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:42:32]:
But, really, it it allows you to kind of, again, cut through the noise and say, if I am in a position where they allow me to use my expertise for the better and in order to help other people, then that should be enough for me and that should at least, you know, give me some kind of, like, jumping board. So I think, you know, it's helping me also make decisions about what's important. So things such as, you know, is it exactly is it ticking all my boxes? It just allows you to kind of crystallize your thinking and say, you know what? The most important parts are these and these and these, and that my values are kind of aligned with with the company or the job. And so the rest, you just trust that it's somehow gonna kind of fall into place. I mean, that sounds very wishy washy, but I do think it kind of helps you in your decision making, especially when you're in a time of uncertainty. It comes back to just feeling your gut feelings and just kind of, like, following and listening to your own sense of self, really. Yeah.
James Glover [00:43:36]:
And that, I love this the the the kind of the differentiation here of the what and the how, there is kinda some debate around it. And there is and it's not debate. It's openness. There is openness because, actually, as long as it comes clearly from, from from meaning and and has clear contribution to the things that you actually care about, then actually where you work on what you're working and how you go about working, there's a kind of an openness to different possibilities because you know it's going to feel right if you kind of pay attention to to that bit. And I love the fact that it comes back down to, choices and decision making that is being influenced by intuition. And that kind of rich sense of data that's going, actually, I have some boundaries over this, and it's not going, has to be this salary, has to be this organisation, has like all those things are important. Right? And it's good to be aware of them, and everybody kinda has a a, a scale around some of that stuff, the things that feel tolerable or necessary and needed and the things that aren't. But ultimately, they are part of the picture.
James Glover [00:44:46]:
The foundation of choice and decision making is coming from a place of intuition, which is born out of a place of kind of meaningfulness and significance, which, yeah, hopefully will enable you to feel like you are flying when you make that choice.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:45:01]:
Yeah. Definitely. And I think I think the one of the one of the many reasons why I'm such a believer that, you know, cultivating a sense of purpose is one of the kind of foundational things that everyone should do for themselves in order to have a greater sense of well-being, whether it's out of work or just in life, is that I think it reframes your thinking to think much more long term. And and I think that's also where this element of, like, trust that everything will happen. I don't mean this in this kind of, you know, like, esoteric way. I just mean it in a you make this you follow your sense of purpose because long term, things will kind of then through you consistently making decisions that align with that sense of purpose, things will come together and, you know, the the the puzzle pieces will fit. And it means that you're not making decisions based on shortsighted as you're saying, you know, oh, but right now, I'm looking for this salary. Of course, there are certain, you know, cutoff points that everyone will have and so on.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:46:04]:
I mean, you survive. But, yeah, I think it allows you to kinda think beyond that. So that's how I'm trying to look at it. It doesn't mean that every day you necessarily feel, you know, super aligned with everything, but, I'm trying to think that way.
James Glover [00:46:23]:
And I think there's a a wonder wonderful vulnerability, Anna, in in you describing that, which, I think is the kind of the the unspoken element of what we're saying here today is that we've talked a lot about intuition and emotion, yet we're having a fairly cerebral conversation. And those that are listening to this will be kind of thinking their way through what we're describing. And almost in your last comment there, you're drawing attention to the reality of the experience of this, which is it doesn't always feel positive. It doesn't always feel good. It doesn't always feel hopeful or exciting or energizing. Actually, sometimes it can feel really difficult, and that's because what what matters isn't stacking up or isn't aligning or isn't coming to the fruition. And the absence of it and the difficulty and the tension of it is also part of the journey because that's the wrestle and the effort and the work that, to your point, if you stay in and stay connected to, the long term outputs will be you're more of the person that you want to be, and you'll see more of the experiences and goals that you want to achieve achieved.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:47:31]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the interesting thing is, as you say, that to a certain extent, the downside is that the more you know what you want, you also become very aware of what you don't want. And that means that there's a lot of attention that will automatically as soon as something in your environment or about, you know, just your life or choices doesn't align with that, you become very aware of it and you become annoyed by it or annoyed or, you know, there's there's negative emotions attached to it. And I think, yeah, it's it's important to highlight that it's not always going to feel positive. And that's also why going back to, you know, my module on happiness, pleasure and purpose are 2 separate things. Purpose can inform pleasure. And if you have both pleasure and purpose, that's kind of the the ultimate great scenario.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:48:26]:
But it doesn't mean that if something doesn't feel positive, that it means you should stop and that that's not your purpose. You need to kind of be mindful, I guess, of, like, why isn't it feeling positive? And is there something that I can change, or is it actually just wrong for me? There's kind of these these deeper questions that come with that.
James Glover [00:48:47]:
Amazing. And so I only have one more question for you in our conversation today, which is which house in Hogwarts do you think you would have been in if the sorting hat was placed on your head?
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:48:57]:
Look. I mean, I would be lying if I don't I didn't say I wanted to be Gryffindor. Right? Everyone wants to be Gryffindor. Am I Gryffindor? I don't know. I I would like to say I'm I'm a, I'm a combination of Ravenclaw, Gryffindor, and Hufflepuff, but then who who who isn't? So I I I haven't done the test. I know that there's some kind of test out there. Test? Yeah. Apparently, there's some kind of quiz.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:49:27]:
I mean, there's some
James Glover [00:49:28]:
You've done it. You've
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:49:29]:
No. I haven't.
James Glover [00:49:30]:
You are still there already. I want to admit it.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:49:34]:
I haven't. But, my friend did. I remember when we were, like, 14. She did it, and she said she was Hufflepuff. And I kind of I judged her for it. I was like, wow. You're not. No.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:49:46]:
But then I was also aware that my outcome might not be Gryffindor either, so I just avoided the situation so that I don't even know. It's better not knowing sometimes. But I would like to make it clear I'm not Slytherin. That's all I care about.
James Glover [00:49:58]:
Yeah. Obviously. Great. Totally clear. Listen, Anna, thank you so much for for being with us on the examples all today. It's been great to to kinda chat. And, I know you and I could could kinda talk philosophy around purpose all day long. And so it's been great to kinda get get your thinking and your understanding and your research intertwined with your kind of your journey and your reality and what you're looking forward to, in life.
James Glover [00:50:22]:
And, yeah, Hogwarts is real, people.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:50:24]:
Still waiting for my letter. Yeah. Thanks for having me.
James Glover [00:50:28]:
You're welcome. Have a great day. Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitablesoul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.
Anna Lelia Sandoghdar [00:51:01]:
Day.