Episode #27: David Jackson
Managing Mortality and Life Purpose: A Journey Through Injury and Self-Discovery
Welcome to The Excitable Soul Podcast, where we dive deep into the journey of finding purpose and meaning in our lives through compelling real-life stories. In today's episode, we're joined by former professional rugby player David Jackson, affectionately known as Jacko, who experienced a significant turning point in his life due to a career-ending brain injury in 2013.
Together, we explore the challenges of balancing everyday responsibilities with the quest for a fulfilling life. We dive into the power of historical perspective, and the meaningful connections between past experiences and present purpose.
David shares his profound insights on dealing with mortality, overcoming identity crises, and the importance of self-reflection.
We'll also delve into David's current work and philosophy, balancing his professional life with an overarching life purpose, and his unique approach to performance enhancement through breathing techniques.
Tune in as we uncover the wisdom that emerges from life's unexpected turns and the importance of staying open to new revelations.
Whether you're navigating a life transition, seeking personal growth, or simply curious about the deeper questions of existence, this episode is sure to offer valuable insights and inspiration. So, sit back, relax, and join us on this introspective and thought-provoking journey on The Excitable Soul Podcast.
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Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:44]:
So let's get going, shall we? Today's guest on the excitable soul is David Jackson, AKA Jacko, A former professional rugby player forced to retire due to a brain injury, who has redefined himself as a performance enhancement and corrective exercise specialist. He helps professional and international athletes and teams improve their physical and mental performance and recovery. Central to his philosophy is his work as a master instructor and mentor with the oxygen advantage. This deeply personal and reflective conversation covers everything from evidence based scientific practice to philosophy on life after death. A truly inspiring human and a gift of a conversation. Enjoy. David, Jacko, Jackson, welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast. Listeners should know that we just turned the excitement level up to 25, before we even pressed go.
James Glover [00:01:44]:
And, we're doing our best to try and kind of bring it down to a conversational level so so that it doesn't pull everybody else off. How are you doing today, my friend?
David Jackson [00:01:55]:
I am doing very well. All the better for seeing your glorious hair and, yeah, speaking to you and catching up.
James Glover [00:02:03]:
Yeah. It's, it's probably not too much of a secret to say that we did have a good hair chat, actually, and and catching up and kind of compare I was gonna say compared lengths, that's gonna start us off in a round in in a round post, Jacko. Maybe we'll just
David Jackson [00:02:16]:
that bit out. Yeah. Yeah.
James Glover [00:02:18]:
Let's get that. But, yeah, thank you so much for for being with us, and I can't wait to to kinda get into this conversation. We've we've created this kind of structure that that people who listen to us regularly kind of have have got a sense of talking about where and how people have uncovered a sense of purpose, and then once kind of uncovering it, have they understood it in context of the different, aspects of their life, and then how and where they're using it. Like, how are they unleashing it, you know, for for for creating the future. And I've started off asking a slightly different question just purely for my own curiosity, which is, you know, when that word purpose is kind of laden with connotation, isn't it? Like it and it can also mean lots of different things to different people. So I guess I'm just wondering from a start point, what does purpose mean to you, Jacko?
David Jackson [00:03:09]:
It it like you said, it's such a fascinating question and and concept, and we could probably do the entire podcast just on that and and and still not even get to the point where I can tell you what mine is, for example. But, so I guess to shed some light, very interesting that literally in the last couple of weeks, I've been really looking into shaping what that is, for me with my work. But my work is so deeply rooted in, like, what I care about and what I'm about that there's this, a little bit of friction, I think, inside of me sometimes where I'm like, okay. I've got work purpose, and then I've got, like, my life purpose, but they're sort of merged in together. Because I'm, I guess I'm I'm lucky in that I, of a fortunate that what I do for a job doesn't feel like work is is generally one of those things where, you know, you go, I'd I'd do this. I'd do this even if I wasn't being paid. And sometimes that is actually what happens because I I do some work where I don't get paid, but it's this and I've been doing some work on doing some work on what is my work more strictly work, purpose. But the the notion of I came across something literally the other day that said, if you you know that you're in the absolute sweet spot when you don't really know what you're doing or don't really feel like you know exactly what you're doing, but you're sort of going somewhere.
David Jackson [00:04:50]:
And if you look back behind you, there seems to be some sort of path that's going even though you can't realize that that's happening at the time. So, you know, when I look at, like, what I've done for my brain injury and then how that looked into, like, breathing and then all the various different things that have happened through my coaching career and things to to put me where I am now, it feels like very, very like, looking backwards, it looks very clear. Looking forwards, do I know exactly what that is? No. But then that makes me feel like, okay. That's it's exciting, if you know what I mean? Because and it's also I think the other thing I would say to it is that so I retired from a brain injury from playing professional b 2013, so what? 11 years ago. So if you said to me, El Jeko, and and at that point, you're going like, okay. Once I've recovered and got better, it was like, what do you want to do with the rest of your life? Well, what I do now didn't exist. There was nobody coaching, breathing in professional sport.
David Jackson [00:05:48]:
There's no one because you yeah. Whereas so for me to say, okay. What do you wanna I know you haven't necessarily said, like, a 10 year goal, but when we're talking about personal thinking think like what you're trying to do with the your your future, the it would be history would say to me, it'd be a little bit naive for me to go, okay. In 10 years' time, I'm gonna be doing x y zed because it's like, well, you know, history just shows you that you did that what you're doing didn't even exist. I mean, I don't really feel like breathing is going away, because if you that that goes away, then we're all dead. So I I I if you if that goes away, then we're all dead. So I I I can only see it sort of developing further, but my to cut straight to the chase and give you my because I've been doing some work with a, like, a mentor, on my on my purpose. In terms of breathing and what I'm doing in in in professional sport with it is that I, I really hope I don't know if hope is the right word to start your purpose statement, so I'm still obviously still working on it.
David Jackson [00:06:49]:
But the notion of sports themselves, like the sport itself and the coaches to appreciate and understand the importance breathing can have on helping their athletes. Like, that's what I that is what I want to do. That is what I feel drawn to doing, and that is what and that is what is happening as I push into the thing that I feel in a unique position to be able to to do.
James Glover [00:07:25]:
Yeah. So let let me just pause you there because there's, like, a colossal amount of things to to, to kind of unpack in it to the point where I actually had to grab a pen really quickly and capture it down because I was like, oh, that bit. Oh, that bit. But there there are a few things I'm really curious to kind of explore here. 1, about the concept of a work purpose and a life purpose and the intuitive wrestle that you are having about separating that out because I genuinely have a belief that the source material is it comes from one place. How you express it can be slightly different. So the way that I might express my sense of purpose as a parent is gonna be different to how I express my sense of purpose in work, but the kind of the source of it comes from the same place. So I'm interested in the tension and the wrestle that you've had with that because it feels like there's just some intuitive data.
James Glover [00:08:17]:
So that's one thing. The second thing was then the, the massive question of, like, I finished rugby here, and probably not in the way that I maybe thought I was going to. And then the question that was asked of me is, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? Like, holy like, how big a question is that to start to break down and and even consider? So, you know, what were the first steps around around some of that? And then the 3rd bit, and I can pick these off back with you, but I just wanted to give you a sense of kind of wrestling with what I heard. The 3rd bit was this idea of, you know, when I look back now, I can see an interconnectedness in the steps and the journey that I'm on. But when I look forward, I acknowledge that I don't know what the future can hold, but there is a sense of faith and belief in that it's gonna be okay because it's been okay. Like, I don't have to know. I don't have to know because actually, I didn't know before either, and it's been alright.
David Jackson [00:09:13]:
Yeah. That's, gosh. I mean, that I'll go maybe not not in no particular, but just because you made me say gosh on that last part. That, it's it's really difficult, I find. I'm sure everyone does. It's very difficult, even when you've had some probably quite, as I would, for myself, describe quite powerful experiences of going that have shaped, like, where you've got to to still look at because when they happen a long time ago, to look at the the to feel the sort of raw emotion of it and to go, you know, what exactly what you just said is totally true. When I look back, it's like, it's very clear that it's okay. But despite all of that, there's still things on a daily basis where I'm, like, trying to make things happen in this with this purpose.
David Jackson [00:10:13]:
And sometimes it feels like it's it's it's goes really smooth and it's easy. And other times it's like, am I freaking bonkers? And am I and is this just this isn't just this isn't working? And some people would I mean, some people that know the type of work that I'm doing and whatnot, then my listeners would be like, oh, no. Yeah. You know, because they from the outside, someone only sees really what you either put on your social media or you you put out on email and stuff. So, you know, you you you're sharing, like, these are the bits and pieces I'm doing. I don't share what I'm not doing because there's not really anything to share about what you're not doing. So sometimes from the outside, they can, like, oh, yeah. You're this.
David Jackson [00:10:50]:
You're doing this. You're doing that. And, you know, the the comments that I always get from me is like, if anyone speaks, oh, you're very busy, aren't you? Very busy. And I go, well, I don't know. Because, like, yesterday, I just spent 5 hours running up and down Snowdon, like, for some training that I'm doing, which wasn't work. I mean, technically, I can put it down in my work category, but it's not I'm not doing any work. I'm running up and down. It's 5 hours.
David Jackson [00:11:12]:
It basic prepped before it in recovery. I said, it basically took my entire day out. I did, like, I did one technical hour of work, like, yesterday. Like so I get, like, well, I don't think that's that I don't feel that's that that busy. Like, I'm not working 9 till 5. But Yeah. I might
James Glover [00:11:25]:
travel around and see somebody who's having, like, a a 70 hour week, and you worked 1 hour yesterday. And the external expectation is, wow. You're really busy. Like, oh, okay.
David Jackson [00:11:36]:
Yeah. Yes. I'm a
James Glover [00:11:37]:
then.
David Jackson [00:11:38]:
Yeah. But, like, I do have reasonable depending on what's going on, like travel to see athletes and stuff because there's not many of them. Well, none of them actually live in North Wales where I live. So, yeah, that that being able to look back and take some comfort in what history shows and going like it is gonna be okay is quite difficult to put into, into action at times. And I think that's where, having some tools like the breathing to, like, when I'm fee if we're feeling a bit worried about the feeling, we're feeling a bit lost or we're feeling a bit like, I don't know where this is going, and I don't know if this is the right path or this is working for me. Having the option to look back and go, well, is there something making sense? As well as actually just having some simple breathing techniques to calm by calm calm the nervous system, to calm the mind, to enable maybe at that point to then look back with, some source of clarity rather than just feeling a bit worried and anxious and beat up about these things. Because I've got all sorts of things. Literally, I I haven't done this for a while.
David Jackson [00:12:47]:
I've got a a broken eye socket that's displaced that I had a triple fracture of my, like, jaw, cheek, and eye socket that's apparently a triangle of when you get a big impact on the side of the face, it's very common for it to fracture in these three places. And I was was part of a a series of brain injuries that I had leading up to, when I had to retire, but there was a I was supposed to have an operation to have a plate put in once they'd reset it, but I didn't. And I was a little bit disappointed because I was looking forward to walking through the airport and setting off the scanners and be like, oh, actually, that's because I got a plate in my face.
James Glover [00:13:28]:
I'm freaking Wolverine. Yeah.
David Jackson [00:13:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. For, like, literally, I was just literally disappointed. But then I think it was 2 or 3 years later, I'd had, like, a seizure on the on the training field. I had to go for an MRI scan, and I remember getting this letter that said, you know, blah blah blah. Basically, you have to sign your life away. And then but one of the things was highlighted that if you have any metal in your head, you're not allowed to have this MRI scan. And I sort of needed this MRI scan to prove what was going on, etcetera, etcetera.
David Jackson [00:14:05]:
And I remember thinking, wow. Like, 3 years ago, I was I was I was I the I went in for the operation that, you know, the the the surgeon showed me the the the metal. This is what we're gonna put in your face. This is what we're gonna do. When I come around from being under general, he goes, oh, well, when I pulled your face out and put it in place, it was all sound. I mean, he sort of made he sort of gesticulated. Like, he was basically punching me in the face to check that it was solid whilst I was out. And he said, so it was it was rock solid, so I didn't need to put the plate in, so we just left it, like, just by chance.
David Jackson [00:14:41]:
You know? And some people could think whatever they want to think about that. But for me, it was like this was a huge thing, and then there's, you know, there's lots of other things that that go along that place. So there is a you you've just reminded me of a little physical reminder I sometimes do is I've I've still the the eye socket is displaced, so I feel underneath here and there's the bone sticking out. And it's like, that's a little physical reminder for me of, like, even when it feels like it can't get any worse, it's actually alright. You don't know what is at play behind the scenes, so just relax.
James Glover [00:15:18]:
Yeah. And I totally hear you with, people would and could describe that in a whole bunch of different ways. And I I I think playfully, but really seriously, I just go the universe, man. The universe just it knows better, and sometimes you just have to trust that while in the moment it doesn't feel what you want, you may actually be getting exactly what you need. And, you know, what would have been the cost or the consequence of not being able to have that MRI in that moment? And, you know, in at the same time, in the moment of wanting the play in your face, could you have ever predicted that that might be the thing that's like, you can't begin to comprehend all of that information and make sense of it in a way that could be useful. So there's just this part of what do I need to let go of here and just trust it.
David Jackson [00:16:08]:
Yeah. And even my like, you know, my the brain injury I had in 2013, it was, you know, one of the hardest things I've had to to deal with physically, emotionally for all sorts of different reasons, and just the physical symptoms that, you know, lasted for for a very long time. Not that it was not that I necessarily I don't know. I don't know necessarily what I believe into it, but that it wasn't it was a bad thing. Right? And it was there was lots of bad things around it. But what's come out of it, I wouldn't be I wouldn't have looked at brain health in a way that led me to look at breathing, and I wouldn't be doing the work that I'm doing now, which feels like I'm in it feels like everything that I've done from, like, a scientific, like engineering degree to a teaching degree to coaching to strength and conditioning coach. So then they're just funneled down to this, like, you know, I I know how to understand scientific literature. I know how to educate.
David Jackson [00:17:12]:
I know how to coach. I know what it's like to have been a professional athlete. I know what it's like to have had a a braided all these things just go into this place again like it's like this job has been created for me despite the the the way to get there has been pretty rough at times, let's say.
James Glover [00:17:30]:
Yeah. And so maybe just let's stay with a little bit of the the kind of the steps in that, Jacko, in that, if we if we just hold this kind of premise, hold this philosophy, hold this perspective, just even in this conversation for a moment of when you look forward, who knows? Right? Who knows? But there's something in being able to look back and learn, but also put yourself in the moments where decisions needed to be made. Or there let's just say there were choices. Right? There were choices. What was it that was influencing the choices in those moments? So, you know, engineering or not, teaching or not, s and c coaching, not breathing. What was some of the key things that were helping you make the choices to take the path that you took at those key inflection points? You you pick which one might be
David Jackson [00:18:21]:
Yeah. Well, there's probably just it's, there's only one thing really, And it goes back it it links into one of your other points that you were wanting to come back to as well anyway, which is nice to link them together. In that, there's a bit around having a sporting career that is quite a blessing in disguise or just like a if you have a most people's career starts at wherever post school or other educator, and then you're, like, looking for retirement, if which is then however soon you can try to make or whatever. Whereas with sport, unless it's something like golf or snooker, chances are in and around early thirties, you're going to retire, typically, just as on average. And so a lot of us struggle with that period, regardless of whether it's by choice or whether it's through injuries. It's a difficult period, and there's a lot of, our identity being wrapped up in what we do, which is one of the reasons why it makes it difficult. And I guess something as I'm getting older and having some of these experiences is going like, well, like, even if I've not thought about this way around before, but this is what you're drawing out of the conversation. At the time, it doesn't feel like it's particularly good or or helpful, and I don't know why this is happening or where this is going.
David Jackson [00:19:58]:
We've all had those types of experiences. But the more times that happens, then you're able to look back. It might be 1 week. It might be 1 month. It might be 10 years. Then you actually go, oh, that makes sense now as to why we've we've gone why this has happened and why we've gone this way. Or at least, be able to look at something if it's a little bit more in under a positive light. And one of the things about having this period, which could be sort of midlife crisis type of age ish type of thing, is a reevaluation of, like, okay.
David Jackson [00:20:33]:
That chapter's done. You're not going to do that anymore. What do you want to do now? You know, one of the things about playing rugby is the the very tiniest percentage of rugby players will earn enough money so they don't need to worry about money. So you're actually gonna have to have a proper career for your next 30 odd years or whatever it's gonna be. So you have to think about it. And it's a definite stop, and I think it's something that I'm very grateful for is that I had a I had a proper stop, like a hard stop, and it's like, you are going to have to reevaluate and look at what are you going to do. And without the added pressure of I didn't I, you know, I wasn't able to do anything, so I didn't have a job. If you were 40 years old listening to this podcast and you wanna change careers and you've got a a mortgage and a family and getting you've got a 70 hour week, when are you gonna find the time to reflect and go, actually, I don't know that.
David Jackson [00:21:29]:
I wanna do this. I wanna do something else. Life is too busy to allow that to happen. So I feel very fortunate the way this happened. It forced it's happened, and it gave me it forced and gave me the space to go, you know what? What do you wanna do? And I literally made some lists of, like, what do I wanna do? Like, what's important in terms of what I do, and what's not important? And the thing that I boil it down to, which comes the essence of your question, is I want to and enjoy and like and feel fulfillment in very simply helping people. It's which sounds super cheesy and coy, but I can't get with that was what I wrote at the top of my list. Like, what do you want to do next? It was like helping people. And then there was like, I also don't want to let all of what I've learned through sport go to waste.
David Jackson [00:22:22]:
So it's like I wanted to do something within sport and then blah blah blah. And and this is where I then went down into strength and conditioning. And, you know, I still work as a strength and conditioning coach now, but it's actually I just work on breathing. And depending on the person, I can present it as if they wanna work on breathing, great. Let's talk about breathing. If they think breathing is a bit weird, let's talk s and c, but I'm gonna make you hold your breath whilst you do your conditioning sessions, and then you're gonna wanna Yeah. Yeah. Breathe.
David Jackson [00:22:45]:
So we package it up in different in different ways. But, yeah, it's, and that's one of the things I love about the the breathing part is you every everyone has the potential to benefit from that you could help anybody. Whereas if I'm coaching calisthenics or if I'm coaching s and c, if I'm doing this, that, the other, there's only a certain demographic of people that are gonna benefit from that. Whereas breathing's for everybody, which is it's it's really I find it quite exciting to be like, this is quite cool that, like, the thing that I'm trying to help people with or work out for myself and and all this, that, the other, anybody potentially could benefit from this.
James Glover [00:23:32]:
Yeah. You know what I really love about that, Jacko, is you you kind of were able to make the comparison and talk about feeling really grateful for having been put in a position where you needed to consider this, and acknowledging that there are probably people out there who feel a desire, a pull, a need to be able to kinda think about some of this, but, actually, the space to do so feels really constricted. Yeah. And, actually, you talked about 2 things. I was forced to confront it. Like, I couldn't not see it, but also I didn't have anything else to do, so there was space to be able to go after that. And, actually, there's I think there's power in that alone for everybody, which is what what might need to be the forcing function here? What is the call to action action around some of this? What are you currently allowing to happen for yourself that actually doesn't need to happen if you just when now is the moment, now is the time? Like, what what does that look like?
David Jackson [00:24:33]:
Yeah. I think that there's something I could probably I'm quite passionate about this because I feel like it let's say I've had that experience of going I was I had a brain injury that stopped everything, and then there was a reassessment and go like, okay. What are we gonna do now? Whereas and I'm I'm I'm I can from my experience, like, nobody listened to this wants to have a brain injury like that is not a good idea. So let's we're let's not we're not wishing that something bad like this is happening so it can help you. So but there is probably to stop if you can and ask yourself the question, is what I'm doing actually something I have chosen to do? And I don't mean you applied for the job that you're currently doing. I know you applied for it. But have you actually chosen to do it? Or was it just what you happen to be good at school and then the teachers encouraged and you liked having that encouragement, then your mum and dad or whoever you were trying to respect for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, basically led you down this path that just sort of happened as opposed to you going, this is what I want to do. And then asking those questions about what I am doing.
David Jackson [00:25:46]:
Like, is it does it bring me, like, life? Do I do I hate getting up in the morning? Am I getting up in the morning, like, try feeling like I'm making a difference or feeling like I'm learning a bit more about myself or whatever it is, but just there being something about that. If you're, I guess, if you're the type of person listening to this podcast, you're gonna be engaged in this type of stuff. But I think it's very, very, very, very easy in our current sort of culture, climate, and education that we just we happen to fall into what it is that we're doing. And it's not it's not saying it's a bad thing or anything, but, like, have you chosen it? Is it is it a choice? And if you don't feel like you have time to stop and sort of ask these questions, the the I'm sort of suggesting to you, well, the flip side is something really fucking horrible happens to you, which isn't and and, like, we don't want that for people. Like, we can it doesn't have to be so painful as it is has been for for a lot of us. You know, I'm very fortunate. Like, well, I still don't know. Like, I, you know, I may get, you know, early onset of dementia in the next 5, 10 years.
David Jackson [00:26:58]:
And, you know, the the so it's it's this is all I'm I guess I'm just saying there's an up there's there's the opportunity whenever you want, actually, to just ask yourself some of those questions.
James Glover [00:27:13]:
Well, the the I think the magic here, Jacko, for me is, firstly, the what a wonderful question. Have you chosen this life? Just sit with that. And whatever shows up is gonna be useful to you. Yes because, no because, or somewhere in between. Yeah. And, that's that's useful in its own right. Then there is the there is the kind of the the the understanding of that answer, which is, did I do this because I was trying to meet external expectation or gain some kind of validation? Did I make this because it came from a place of internal understanding? You know, you talked about, in that space and asking yourself what could happen or what life could be. You went, well, actually, what what is important to me? What do I care about? You know, what are the things that, would bring a level of satisfaction or fulfillment to me? And it and you're saying about, you know, I wanted to help people.
James Glover [00:28:14]:
Well, there is a part of me where that doesn't sound cheesy. The the thing for me is that to some degree, we're we're we're kind of hardwired to want to, to help people because, you know, there is a kind of a physiological need to be part of society, but there there was a there was a granular bit of detail there that was really important, which is I wanna help people, but I also want to utilize all the knowledge and experience that I've gained in the journey that I've been on so far. So automatically, you're creating this wonderful set of criteria to help shape what's next. And it all came from a place of just pausing and and and kind of sitting in. What do I know about myself? What do I care which is something we can all do. Right? And I think the other thing that kinda really landed with me, not only was that question brilliant, but also why the the provocation of why wait? Like, why wait for something really severe to happen and then go, alright. Shit. I need to, you know, I need to change.
David Jackson [00:29:13]:
Yeah. Or or nothing happens, and you get to your deathbed and you, like, go, oh, shit. Life just happened to me. Yeah. I think that's the yeah. That's something that really impacted me a lot was watching my my father die. And as you can imagine, like, it's but seeing so he he had he had cancer, and there wasn't a lot they could do, and it was sort of classic case where it it goes quite quickly towards the end. And there was, and I guess since then also or during that process, I was helping my mom look after him at home for, like, the last 4 weeks, and I guess I was engaging in for for for some comfort and afterwards engaging and looking at a lot of, yeah, people that were writing about or doing work with people in the latter stages of their of their life because it's such a powerful, time.
David Jackson [00:30:12]:
It's such a sad time, but it's, seeing seeing what is then important to you. Or or for me looking at my dad and going like, so what like, seeing what was important. And, yeah, that that's that for me is, I don't I get all the things that happened to us in our life shape, like the way we're thinking and stuff. But from, you know, that experience has has definitely made me look at life differently in terms of, like and and I'm sure it's like an age thing as well. You just get to appreciate a little bit more as you get older. But it's like, there is an end to what is going on here right now. Like, there is an end to that. It's not in our society, we don't talk about it.
David Jackson [00:31:07]:
I'm like, I'm again, like, I guess it it it brings something up in me because I don't feel like my dad was prepared. I don't feel like he he I don't feel like he was given the the preparation of, like, this is happening. You are dying. No one dared say to him, you are dying. Yeah. And it doesn't serve us in any way to be, we don't we don't talk about it when there's the dead body in our culture is in a coffin. We don't wanna see it, and we pretend and we live life like we're not gonna die. It's absolutely bonkers.
David Jackson [00:31:51]:
And, yeah, I think that has had a profound effect on on me. But at the same time, it's so easy just to slip back out of that into the, like, gotta get me to do list done and getting stressed about this, that, the other. That doesn't matter. It it it's it's always still difficult, though, I find, to live with some of these things a little bit at the forefront. Like, you know, wake up in the morning and go, like, you're gonna die today, Jacko. And it might actually what if it's today? You don't even know if it's today, and that's not a morbid thing. It's like a reality thing and actually going, like, so what are you gonna do? Or remember when you had your brain injury, how you thought you'd never have be able to stay awake long enough to have a to have a job and to be able to have a family or a lie like, you know, that was a that was a real concern for me and my wife is, like, I'm literally not gonna be able to work. And I wake up in the morning again, like, isn't it freaking amazing that I'm able to, like, do stuff now? Like, it it that is very, very rare that that is how I wake up even though it could be at the forefront of mind because it's so easy to to just go to go back.
David Jackson [00:33:06]:
But I think having ways I love writing stuff down. I've got whiteboards everywhere. Stuff having ways to remind yourself of some of those things that, like, strike a chord with you and, like, go, no. No. This is this is what you sort of believe in or this is a little bit of a you might not know where you're going forward, but the the the signs from the past are sort of at least showing a direction that you don't know where it is, but, like, the angle is like, yeah, maybe it's over there. Does that make does that make sense?
James Glover [00:33:34]:
Yeah. Makes total sense. And I'm wondering, what are the things, Jacko, do you think that help people reconnect with or refine that sense of perspective? Because, you know, I'm sat here listening to you talk about being able to reflect on the experience of seeing your dad die and the impact that that's had on you in just being able to acknowledge this is this is finite. It's not infinite. And, like, embrace that. But also acknowledging the humanity of, well, I'm not gonna live every day like that because, you know, I'm normal. And some days, I've just gotta do some washing and Yeah. Yeah.
James Glover [00:34:11]:
You have
David Jackson [00:34:11]:
to be gotta do the normal thing. I found I found that quite hard
James Glover [00:34:14]:
at first.
David Jackson [00:34:15]:
It was like, you're going like, well, this you you gotta do, like, the normal things at the same time as Yeah. Try and and and that's the, that's the paradox, isn't it? Of, like, you gotta do the normal things to just there's certain things you gotta do, like, to just get by, but then at the same time, we're trying to make the most of of what we've got. But if making the most of what I've got means that, actually, right, if today what literally, if this was the last day, I'm sorry. I wouldn't do a podcast. I'd go off and do so, Javeen. But then but then you're never gonna then do any of the the the things that you need to do. So it's,
James Glover [00:34:53]:
what do you mean you wouldn't be here
David Jackson [00:34:54]:
having a conversation with
James Glover [00:34:55]:
us? Maybe maybe it would. Maybe it came off.
David Jackson [00:34:57]:
But I'd probably say some other stuff. I'd probably say, I'm sorry for all the bad things that I've done.
James Glover [00:35:04]:
Okay. The example of soul has now become a confession
David Jackson [00:35:06]:
for us.
James Glover [00:35:08]:
More people more people may listen, Jack. Yeah. But, yeah, how how, let's let's just let's just put it into the realms of kind of of of supporting people out there. What what are some of the ways do you think of being able to hold that tension, being able to maintain the paradox of normal stuff and acknowledging the kind of finite nature of the how do we how do we how do we revisit, come back to the perspective of, I've gotta remember that, you know, I don't know what happens tomorrow.
David Jackson [00:35:39]:
Yeah. I don't know. I'm not I'm not necessarily, not necessarily. I'm definitely not an expert in in any of this. I I I struggle and battle with this like like everybody. But I think why because probably things that when I'm able to have a little bit of perspective in it is trying to trying to have some of those reminders somewhere that allow you to look back. I mean, I like to go for, like almost go so ridiculous that you can't argue with it. So and there will still be some people who argue with this one, but this is my slightly, ridiculous one.
David Jackson [00:36:16]:
So looking back initially, you look far enough back, you go like, well and this is this is one of my sort of my arguments a little bit when we like you know, when we if we we think like, when I said, like, if you think, you know, I know I'm going. I'm doing this. You know, well, you don't really know because, you know, history show. The and one being like, we used to think the world was flat. And when people said that the world wasn't flat, we reckon it's curves, it's round blah blah blah, and then everyone went idiot. And and, like, anytime anyone had, like, a a big paradigm shift in, like, what we believed and think, they thought they were ridiculous. The, in Norman Dorge's book, the brain that changes itself, talks about the first, doctors and neuroscientists that were presenting, I think it was only in, like, the eighties or something, the concept of neuroplasticity, which now everyone's, oh, yeah. Neuroplasticity.
David Jackson [00:37:09]:
But the first guys that were talking about this were ridiculed of, like, just stupid, ridiculous. This is ridiculous. There's no way that the brain can, like, rewire in things now. And now everyone's like, oh, of course. It's like you would need it if you don't oh, you haven't heard that. Have you not heard to the this podcast I listened to about neuroscience or whatever? So that notion of, well because the world is flat one I like. Right? Because you go, well, we used to think that. So whatever we currently think now, in the future, I guarantee you that there's things that will go, oh, we had that wrong.
David Jackson [00:37:43]:
And it might not be like, in the world flat, sounds like it's catastrophically wrong. But I tell you what, go stand outside and tell me that the world isn't flat where you are unless you live in a hill. So it is flat. Like, it's not that it's not wrong. It's just that different, like, perspective of going like, well, it is flat, but it's also not flat. And, yeah, I I love I quite enjoy I used to hate reading sort of an I think you had on the bottom of your email about team dyslexia or, like, I was never good at English and writing and reading and stuff, but, I guess, maybe I've got yeah. I I really enjoy, reading now. And I used to hate history.
David Jackson [00:38:27]:
Thought it was boring. Whereas now I think history is, like, fascinating, particularly, like, the the minds and thoughts of good thinkers past that that were, like you know, they might be, like, 500 years old, but they're, like, talking about stuff, and you're like, makes total sense now even in our world still. And that hasn't necessarily answered your question, has it? But
James Glover [00:38:51]:
Answering answering my question is always
David Jackson [00:38:53]:
It is.
James Glover [00:38:54]:
It's sacred
David Jackson [00:38:54]:
to it. Yeah. But, I think I was the the thing I was trying to go towards in answering this question was, like, finding some signposts to remind yourself in history and probably your own history that make it quite clear. And maybe not even in your history, it's in life's history. Like, that's where the the word flat one is. Like, I if you if I for me, the way I my brain works is, like, if I can go quite ridiculous with it, it lets me, like, be a little bit more like, okay. Yeah. That's fair point.
David Jackson [00:39:25]:
Like, it's it's that will be it's it's fine not to know. It's fine not to know everything now. Because even if you think you know it now, you ain't going to. So it's fine to not know exactly where you're going, but you might have some signpost in the pack.
James Glover [00:39:40]:
And and, actually, part of the work that we do at the Exiled Will Soul, like, step 1 when when we're trying to help people uncover a sense of purpose is is that. It's the time travel element of it. Like, let's go back. To go forward, let's go back. And one of the things that we really encourage people to do, and you're talking to it so eloquently here is in the in the journey of just telling stories of the journey to date, there are threads of commonality. There are threads of connection. There are you can be talking about a story around work one minute, or you could be talking about a story of school another minute, or you could be talking about a story of your parents another minute, and there is this kind of just golden thread of connectivity. There is meaning in all of those stories.
James Glover [00:40:23]:
And actually, the meaning aligns. The meaning connects. And for me, that's the underpinning of purpose is meaning is about significance. It's about importance. And to some degree, we can imbue things with meaning. Alright? So you could argue if you wanna do world is flat, nothing has meaning unless we give it meaning. Nothing. So the more we understand where consciously or unconsciously we've given things meaning, the more we can understand the things that are significant and important.
James Glover [00:40:53]:
And the more that we're able to invest our time and energy in the things that feel important and significant, the more we feel purposeful because we're actually influencing the things that we really care about. Like, you're talking about, well, I wanna help people for a whole load of reasons. If we sat and talked about where that comes from and why that's important to you, there'll be a whole bunch of meaning that just sits behind that context of I wanna help people. And then going, and I've got a whole bunch of skills and knowledge and experience. The contribution I can make can be quite unique and specific because of how I've gone through that journey up until this point in time. And I put those two things together, meaning, contribution, purpose. I feel a sense of fulfillment. I feel a sense of satisfaction.
James Glover [00:41:32]:
And, actually, that's the thing for me that becomes quite exciting about going into the future is if all of those things have been meaningful in my life up until this point, there's a there's a likelihood that they're gonna continue to be meaningful to me in the future. And all I've really got to think about is what's the contribution I'm gonna make to them because the context may shift. The context may change. But there's just some comfort, some confidence in knowing that that, you know, is stable even though there's a whole load of things that that aren't. And maybe if that if we can just spend a few minutes, Jacko, just talking about this wrestle between the the kind of the personal purpose and the professional purpose? Because I think that's something that, you know, people out there would be wrestling with. Like, how do I make sense of these different elements of of of who I am? Because I am this one person. So what's this kind of intuitive tension that you've been experiencing?
David Jackson [00:42:21]:
Well, I did have one, like, very simple practical thing that I'd like to just offer. Like, it's a little bit from the last question, but it'll probably help with a little bit of understanding this as well. Of the simplest thing and probably best thing that we can do is to just stop and be still. So just being still rather than letting just the chaos of the day run away with us. So and it might be for 5 second. You might feel super uncomfortable, like, stopping, but we can stop and just be still. It would great to be able to do that in nature, so, like, outside connected. So you if, you know, if you wanna get really, like, barefoot on some growl, but just in nature, very good for the nervous system.
David Jackson [00:43:15]:
And then if you can just slow down by mouth closed, calm your breathing in and out through your nose, just slow it down a bit, that you will create some stillness by calming your breathing to calm your nervous system. Right? Breathing nervous system go hand in hand. And that will create a little bit of slowing down, a little bit of stillness that may lead to just no revolutions or anything, but but just might just lead to just, like, a just a time out. Or it may lead to some space where you get to contemplate or think about some of these things or meditate on some of these things or however you want to go and take that. But sometimes it's the hardest thing, and particularly if you have a lot of resistance from stopping and sitting still, that resistance is a sign that it will be very, very good for you.
James Glover [00:44:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. So there's definitely something about actually the practicality of holding the tension between the everyday and the magic of what might be possible is actually just a bit of stillness. It's actually about being able to sit and breathe.
David Jackson [00:44:26]:
There's just something practical that yeah. Something practical that we could do having listened to the listened to the podcast.
James Glover [00:44:32]:
This is my final question for you, Jacko, which is, like, just describe to us that kind of internal tension between those 2 between those what feel like different things potentially. I'll tell
David Jackson [00:44:43]:
you what it I'll tell you what it is. It's, the tension comes from the labels and the identity of this always, have. The tension is between seeking the identity and also I I I wrote a poem this morning about, why I want to be liked. But, and that's a and that's like the so the label is something that, for me, it's like I want a label. I wanted I wanted to be a rugby player, but then I didn't want the label. And that was the that's the thing. And, you know, again, our culture conditions this, like, so when you're younger, you guess what do you want to be when you're older. Like, being a policeman doesn't make you a you know, I know it's just words, but it does mean something like, no.
David Jackson [00:45:42]:
No. I'm Jacko or Dave or whatever. Like, I don't know. I'm not I don't get too weird. I'm not bothered about having a I like to have a a name makes things easy to communicate, but I'm not weird about name. But the, the label creates a challenge with identity. And when you then don't do that thing anymore, then we have a little it's a difficult identity question of, like, so actually, who am I? And actually, the, it's really nice to be good at things. Right? And if we it's good for self esteem.
David Jackson [00:46:15]:
We feel good. And we can do lots of good things with being good at something. But it can also I have, in my experience, found it's a little bit of a, it could be a little bit of a trap that stops you actually understanding yourself because you're like, whilst I'm quite happy playing rugby back in the day, it's like, I'm not thinking about who am I as an individual and what's life matters. I'm just liking playing rugby. But then, oh, play badly, get dropped, and then coach doesn't pick me or you're not gonna get a new contract. And it's like, my my identity is being threatened as, like, I'm not good at rugby now. And then taking that to I I'm I take things far too personal, and I still do to this to this day. And it's like trying to work on those things.
David Jackson [00:46:57]:
You know? And for me now, it's like, oh, I'm teaching. Breathe out. Oh, so you're a breath coach. And then it's like it becomes another identity. Whereas I'm feel I I certainly feel like and so that's the that's the the that's the tension and that's the challenge. But I feel like the more we have sort of deeper conversations with various different people that, the experience of life is like the experience of getting to know yourself and who you are, what you are, and why you're here, if you're willing to have that conversation. And there is probably easier, I would say, currently, to not in our climate, our culture, to not have that question with yourself. And allow yourself to be so busy that you get to the point where you die and then you don't.
David Jackson [00:48:01]:
And, like, I don't know what happens, but, like, for like, I've seen I've seen my dad take his last breath. I am telling you something happens, or there is something going on.
James Glover [00:48:16]:
And what, what's really kind of hitting me square in the heart here, Jacko, you know, the the kind of the like, almost the rawness of that experience with your father and the power of being in that moment, but also you being able to kind of acknowledge, to be able to see, to be able to separate out. Actually, I crave a label to help me understand my identity, to help other people understand my identity, and to help me feel like I have a certain place in the world. But it's actually entirely the wrong starting point. So, like, second blowaway question here is, you know, we ask people all the time, you know, what do you wanna be when you're older? Shouldn't the question be, who do you wanna be?
David Jackson [00:49:02]:
Or how how do you want to be?
James Glover [00:49:05]:
It's like, how how much harder is it to answer that question right now in the way that we live our lives? It's rock hard, isn't it? Because we don't have the vocabulary necessary necessarily to to be able to do that to your point. Like, if somebody went, oh, I wanna be a teacher, everybody else would, oh, yes. Yes. Teacher. Yeah. Cool. Got got it. But if somebody just said, I wanna be kind.
James Glover [00:49:25]:
I wanna be generous. I wanna be gracious. I wanna be excited. I wanna be playful. I wanna be
David Jackson [00:49:30]:
Well, let's spell it right. So this is this will make you laugh. What I did, and it wouldn't have been when I was super young, but maybe, like, teenager or something. I wanted and you're you'll be kind because you but I want I don't believe that I am, but I wanted to be wise. I was like I I I don't know. I obviously looked up to older wise and was like, being wise is like, that'd be pretty cool. Like, to be wise feels like you've understood some stuff. I don't know.
David Jackson [00:50:00]:
Like, that's that was I remember I distinctly remember. So it was funny to me. I didn't say anything at the time. But before we hit record, you were going, you you used that word. And I was like, no. Like, I'm not old. I'm I know I've got a lot of gray hair, but I'm only 42. So,
James Glover [00:50:19]:
Man, I love this. I I love this. This is this is why this these conversations and this is why this work just, like, lights me up in the world because that that is you have assigned the level of meaning to that to to the concept, to the philosophy, to the principle of being wise. Right? So just track it back. Look at you being a teacher and all of the different ways you've been a teacher. Like, you're you're giving of information to other people to help them understand some stuff. And, you know, what is wisdom, knowledge, and experience combined? That is wisdom. And so are you wise, Jacko? Yeah.
James Glover [00:50:54]:
You are. And there are thousands of people that, like, glued to the stuff that you shared that that would that would a 100% support all of that. But the thing that that that's really kinda lighten me up in this moment is, you know, you talking about this wrestle between who you are and what you do. Like, so often we start with what am I doing? What are the roles that I play? What are the labels that I put on on what I'm doing? Like, the real magic of you isn't a purpose around your work. The real magic of you is who you are and how you express that through your work. So this nature of wanting to be wise and what that means, where you are with your breath work is an expression of that. Like, what are the other things? How many other things are there that you've kind of imbued with meaning that are now just part of how you are in the world. That's purpose, man.
James Glover [00:51:42]:
Like, that you're living it, and that's why you feel the things you feel, which is amazing. God, I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it.
David Jackson [00:51:49]:
And I think, like, that then fits into what I'd I'd come across the other day where someone was basically saying, like because that makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable in that, like, you're saying nice things or whatever, but it's like a, you know, like, feeling like, oh, gosh. I I don't you've you've said all these things, but I actually don't really I feel like I'm just still I've just start I'm just starting. I'm I've just started in life, and I'm just working it out. And that that's, I took a lot of comfort in someone going like someone saying that basically, yeah, that's a pretty that that you're in a good spot if you, like, don't know what you're doing.
James Glover [00:52:23]:
How much does that then drive you forward into the future because you don't believe you're done, but believe that you have more to do? And that doesn't make you any less wise, knowledge and experience and how you share that. And and I'm just gonna say from me and to from everybody else that listens, like, don't overplay the humility, man. Like, you you are you are living a life with a level of intention and a desire to create a big Jack o shaped hole in the world by just helping people and finding the best way for you to be able to do that. And the number of people that have felt that, experienced that is amazing. So if nothing else, you have to sit uncomfortably on this podcast and hear me say that out loud and and hold it in your hold it in your soul for a little bit because there's truth in it and you know it. But listen, thank you so much for for being on the podcast and for just being open to having this type of conversation. It's been it's been
David Jackson [00:53:20]:
As I knew it would be, it was like a therapy session. So thank you very much for your time. Just a meeting voice afterwards for the therapy.
James Glover [00:53:28]:
Yeah. It's gonna be massive.
David Jackson [00:53:29]:
Yeah. It's good.
James Glover [00:53:32]:
Alright. Thanks, Jacko. Take care, buddy. Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitable soul dot com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.