Episode #24: Scott Allender
Emotional Intelligence and Self-Worth: A Deep Dive into Emotional Healing
In this episode, I sat down with the mega Scott Allender, our first North American guest, to dive deep into the realms of emotional healing, self-awareness, and purpose. Scott shares his poignant journey of navigating overwhelming emotions and the pivotal moments that led him to seek guidance and support.
Together, we explore the interconnectedness of individuals and the profound impact of helping others heal.
Listen in as Scott recounts his transformation from an ego-driven approach to a holistic connection with purpose, integrating cognition, emotions, and somatic awareness.
Discover how Scott's revelation about his self-worth, separate from his achievements, reshaped his personal and professional life, leading him to help others in their journey of self-discovery. With a special focus on the Enneagram, emotional intelligence, and the importance of authentic living, this conversation will inspire you to pause, reflect, and embrace the full spectrum of your emotions.
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Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:01:46]:
Scott, welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast. Amazing to have you here with us. And I think, actually, you are our first North American guest.
Scott Allender [00:01:56]:
Really? Well, now I'm extra honored. Thank you for having me.
James Glover [00:02:00]:
We have, like, 1 or 2 listeners out there, so, you know, you've got an audience to speak to.
Scott Allender [00:02:04]:
Uh-oh. Now we're gonna lose your 2 listeners.
James Glover [00:02:08]:
But we'll gain 10,000 more, obviously, without without question. Yeah. Really brilliant to to, to to have you on. I think the the kind of the unique lens that you have on, learning and development and the kind of the experiences that really help shape people's understanding of the world around them is gonna make for a deeply rich conversation, today. And, those that those that have become accustomed to listening the podcast know that we pose pretty big questions and we pose them pretty quickly. There's gonna be no shying away from that for you because you're literally an expert. So, so we're we're we're gonna we're gonna send them thick and fast. But we also felt like we might go a bit rogue with with you as our guest today, which is, I kinda maybe wanna start in a slightly different place rather than immediately kind of in in your journey and your direct experience of purpose and, you know, where you kind of uncovered it and how you make sense of it, etcetera.
James Glover [00:03:04]:
I'm really interested in an in understanding kind of your definition of purpose and how you talk to other people about purpose and the importance of it. What what does that look and sound like?
Scott Allender [00:03:16]:
It's a good question. I think for me, purpose has always been about connecting to a deep need in the world that aligns with a deep sense of mission in yourself. And I haven't always had that. And I think, quite honestly, I don't think it's something in my life that has sort of just shown up and stayed. Right? Sort of purpose tends to evolve as I evolve and as things around me change. Right? You know? I'm I I know before we hit record, we were talking about being a parent and kind of the way that that shifted. I've got middle schoolers now and sort of my sense of purpose and how I parent them and how I show up to that has evolved as well. So and their because their needs have changed.
Scott Allender [00:04:04]:
Right? So their needs change. My sense of mission around that changes as well, with the overarching theme being the same, which is, you know, I have a I have a vision for how I want their lives to be and how I hope that they'll they'll the people that they'll become and chain and become and turn into. And in my work, I think it's the same. I think, you know, I've had different sort of positions in life, of course, but I feel like, I've always felt more of a sense of, accomplishment and fulfillment when I feel like I'm meeting a great need in the world. And so, yeah, and I've had I've had I've had moments, alarms alarms that have kind of gone off at certain moments when I realized I'm not doing that. And, and I always try to come back to this sense of what is the great need around you, and how does that align with, like, your sense of mission?
James Glover [00:05:00]:
And I I I really, really love that. And I knew this was gonna be a good place to start in this conversation because, just even listening to the kind of the language that just immediately and intuitively came to you, there is a a kind of a need in in the self that is aligned to a need in the world. And therefore, there's this kind of fundamental relationship and interconnection between me and who I am and the world that surround me, but there's kind of a an intentional choice of what is it that I am feeling and what is it that I am seeing that creates that interaction? And am I aware of of the need in me and the need in the world? And that almost the journey of discovery to becoming aware of that.
Scott Allender [00:05:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that that journey was has been has been fraught with detours and unexpected events. Right? So I I for in the in the world work that I do, you know, I've I've always had this interest in sort of human personality and how we bring our personalities to the workplace and how we bring our preferences and the differences that exist among different leaders and their teams and the sort of friction that sometimes ensues and all the things that kinda can go awry. You know, you could take a really strong team and and things can just not work as well as another team over here. So I've always tried to work at that intersection, because I see it as a great need. And I know when when leadership is firing the way it needs to fire and teams are working the way they need to work, brilliance happens.
Scott Allender [00:06:37]:
But that hasn't always been aligned with my sense of who I am in that work. So I know that you know? So for for example, I'll tell you a story. Yeah. I I was doing work building awareness in leadership and on teams for a number of years. I was out out of town doing that work, feeling pretty good about it. Right? Because I know it's a need, and I'm feeling pretty proud of myself, feeling pretty effective. You know? I get in my rental And suddenly and suddenly I just feel this sense of, like, physical discomfort in my chest. I feel a tightening.
Scott Allender [00:07:23]:
I feel a, like, all body kinda neuropathy, almost sensation. I feel something is going on. I can't catch my breath, and I'm, like, I'm booking down the road. Right? Like, I'm moving. And, so I start to pull off the, interstate, and I'm and I'm in the state you call 911. I'm calling 911 on myself. I'm thinking I'm having some I'm too young for a heart attack, but I'm having something. I'm something's happening here.
Scott Allender [00:07:50]:
Right? Like, it's not normal. I've never had this before. So, like, I'm they're they're I'm trying to explain what's happening. I'm trying to explain where I am and the whole thing, and I pull off. I'm in a strange part of town, and then, you know, the ambulance comes and, you know, like I talk about in my book, they give me an EKG, on the spot, and and said it was good. But, you know, I didn't feel too too reassured by that because I remember that my mother-in-law once had an EKG during an actual heart attack, and they said she was fine. So I wasn't too I didn't know what was happening, but I'm like, okay. Something's
James Glover [00:08:20]:
Nothing to quell the
Scott Allender [00:08:21]:
No. No. No. So I'm like they're like, we should come to the hospital, and I'm like, I got a rental car here. I don't even know where I am. I'm like, I, you know, I wanted to go, but I didn't wanna go. I felt mostly embarrassed. I started to feel better.
Scott Allender [00:08:32]:
Right? I started calming down. And as I started to feel better physically, I kind of immediately sensed that I had just scratched the surface of a very, very deep issue. Fast forward, that that changed my entire relationship to the work that I do. So going back to our, my earlier sort of the world's deep need aligned with what is true in me. I recognized in that moment that I was living in a bit at a distance from what was true in me. So all this work I'm doing around leaders leaders getting more in touch with their emotions and more in touch with who they are and the impact they have on the world, and here's all the tips and tricks on how to do that. I I as I sat with this experience and shortly thereafter realized that I experienced my first ever anxiety attack, my only anxiety attack, really, that I was completely disconnected from what was really happening inside of me. So I was like doing this work of building awareness in the world through a completely cognitive lens.
Scott Allender [00:09:33]:
And that moment completely shifted for me. And I set out on this journey for self discovery where I I my entire view of what awareness is changed. And I realized and I use a a system called the Enneagram to get there. But basically, that true awareness is a the interplay between what's happening in our heads, what's happening in our emotional state, and what's happening in our physical body. And that set me on a 10 year journey to kinda really change the way I approach my work and the way I approach myself and and my role in that work.
James Glover [00:10:05]:
I think, you know, it'd be great to kind of dive into the the kind of the Enneagram experience and how this was a catalyst to to you investing in that work and the impact that that brings. Just to stay with this example for a second, because what you've given us right at the very beginning of this conversation is a frame of understanding purpose as a relationship that's connected to need. A need in the self, which is about, you know, what's true in me and a need in the world. Like, where where can I where can I make a contribution? And, actually, there was this, period in your life where you were kind of, if anybody asked you, totally, totally satisfied with the fact that you're making this contribution in the world, and you feel super proud of it, and you're, you know, successful with, with that contribution, until then, there is this kind of deep physical reaction in you that stops you and confronts you and says, hey. Look. There's some more going on than you're paying attention to here. And there's a whole part of this that you haven't even considered, which is the you bit. What do you think what do you think having reflected on it now enabled you to go so far only seeing one part of the equation? And do you think now, again, looking back that there were moments where actually if you had been just more open to it, you might have been able to see more and it not get to that kind of, you know, that that that kind of epiphanal moment.
Scott Allender [00:11:34]:
Yeah. Well, I I think my ego was driving most of the thing I was doing. Right? I think it was you know, I'm I'm natural I was naturally good at seeing where the opportunity was and then learning how to, enter into it with almost a performative sense of effectiveness. Right? So I could show up. I could learn everything I could. I read all the books on emotional intelligence. Got certified in an emotional intelligence profile, you know, got certified in Myers Briggs, got I collected all these sort of well, maybe I shouldn't say even. I had not yet begin to understand what true awareness was.
Scott Allender [00:12:24]:
And I think actually and and I don't wanna digress too far, but I think it I think it's a problem in the entire conversation around emotional intelligence is that it's far too intellectual and heady. We bypass emotions themselves and get right into the cognitive processing around all the sort of things we want from emotional intelligence. Right? We we don't really actually care about it in organizational life very much. What we care about is what you get on the other end of it, which is more regulated behavior, less disruptions, less conflict, all these things. But the experience of emotion to create space for people to actually access and experience emotion in the workplace, especially, still not really a thing. Right? Like, not not often. Right? It's rare that you see organizations that are really open to, you know, allowing for people to check into what their emotions are. So I hadn't even I hadn't even touched into that.
Scott Allender [00:13:17]:
So I think I was so performative, and I was so successful at it that I didn't know that the I didn't know what I didn't know. I didn't know that that, you you know, if you'd asked me how I was feeling, I probably would have told you something, but I don't think I would have really connected to it. And I think what happened in that moment was an alarm system. Right? There was a dissonance happening between what I was professing to know and understand and do in the world and what was actually, you know, the awareness in me was wasn't there. So, to answer the other part of your question, could I have I can't remember the other part of your question, actually.
James Glover [00:13:59]:
Well, to be fair, I've kind of moved on in my head anyway. So let's part the second the second part of the question, and I'll come back around to it. But which was which was, you know, for for me, and I'm happy to have this discussion. I'd encourage it, actually. For me, purpose is an emotional experience. And actually, often, we can over intellectualize what a sense of purpose really is and focus on the kind of the language or a statement to reflect something that, again, is probably driven by a kind of an ego state rather than actually a true connectivity to emotion and emotional fulfillment. And so what you're describing there in this kind of, lack of awareness and the need for there to be a greater sense of awareness, I'm just I'm I'm wondering whether or not that's a critical route in to people being able to to create a a greater level of purposefulness. Like, the the data out there, the evidence base out there talks about the fact that there are there's there are people clamoring to experience a greater sense of something and to contribute to something bigger than themselves, but are struggling.
James Glover [00:15:10]:
Is the root here well, actually, if you're not paying attention to the right stuff, then the chances are you're not going to get to the things that are gonna make you feel the stuff that's gonna create the outcome that you're actually looking for.
Scott Allender [00:15:25]:
Yeah. I like that framing. I think, yeah, I mean, I think the emerging science around, what's there are you know, what's happening in in our bodies and that being part of connecting to purpose. So well, let me back up. Let's let's start that over if we could. There's emerging science around interoception and how our bodies are constantly sending signals up to the brain to make sense of your experience. That is not something that is typically valued or taught or appreciated even in the education system. Right? I think I I watch my kids going to school, and it's a completely heady experience.
Scott Allender [00:16:04]:
Right? They want you to learn, memorize, spit out information on a test, decide what your college major is going to be, find out, like, what's gonna pay a good enough salary, all of which is important stuff, of course. Right? We have to survive all that stuff. But we over index from the time kids are young that that's what matters. And we completely, at least in the west, discount the other part of what you're suggesting, which is part of connecting to purpose is gonna involve your emotions. Like, what makes you come alive? Like, what is the thing you care about? Right? What are the problems in the world that you really wanna solve? And we're not even asking that question. So I think as I grew up, I didn't get asked that question. My parents did perfectly a good job, but, like, I didn't have a sense. I had a sense of only what's gonna get measured, how am I gonna get a good paycheck, and all of the things.
Scott Allender [00:16:56]:
And then you try to find a sense of accomplishment in that, and I did that, and I was doing well in that. But sort of living at a distance and not even factoring in what you're talking about, which is the emotional piece and the physical piece, which is the probably the least valued. Right? So we might value cognition. We might value, to a certain extent, that since the mid nineties, around, you know, those sort of popularization of emotional intelligence that the heart, the feelings kinda matter a bit as well. Again, like we talked about earlier, we bypass that pretty quickly, though, going back to the head. And then there's this other component, which is something that's completely neglected, which we don't even really pay attention to what our sort of most primitive intelligence is, which is the body, which is, you know, always telling us, sending signals about what's happening around us and what we care like, what are we actually experiencing? And so the the journey for me to have a more holistic connection to purpose was when I set on a path to integrate all three of those intelligence centers, and then kind of it it just changed completely how I think about this work.
James Glover [00:18:02]:
Yeah. Amazing. And and so I'm wondering how that has not only just shifted your focus on the work that you do, but shifted who you are, helped you see and understand more of what is significant and important to you, and see and understand the contribution that you can make. So, you know, and if we use your language of truth to you and need in the world, like, you know, beyond the work that you're doing to kind of meet a need, how has it shifted who you are and what you see and understand?
Scott Allender [00:18:41]:
I think what it's done is change my focus of attention from focusing on going higher. I just wanna go deeper into things. Right? Like, I think what shifted in me, like, I I it it created a a desire. So even so whether it's in the work that I do or in my relationships outside of work, it's enabled me to wanna go deeper because, again, I think what it revealed for me is that I was too much of my life was a little bit too much on the surface. And part of that surface was, again, achievement, accomplishment, reward, moving really quickly, too many goals in the day, too many things to tick off the to do list. Those pressures still come, of course, but I I want to go deeper into things. I'm less concerned with climbing higher, if that makes sense. And I think even when I work with leaders, I some of the biggest moments I've had when I coach somebody is when I think they they shift that attention as well, and they kinda start going deeper into what's truly going on inside of them.
Scott Allender [00:19:52]:
The irony in all of that is when you do that, you're become so much more impactful and effective that you may end up climbing higher. Right? Like that could be an ancillary benefit to the work of going deeper. But those moments and I coached somebody. I know we haven't gotten into the Enneagram, and this isn't an Enneagram podcast, but I coached somebody who identify so the Enneagram has 9 primary types. I coach somebody identified as a type 8. Eights are known as the sort of powered up, strong, tough, like, less effective, take charge. You know? Who's got who's got the juice in this room? Are they using that juice appropriately? If they're not, I'm gonna take over. I've the juice.
Scott Allender [00:20:32]:
I'll do it. Like, that's the kinda show no vulnerability, show no weakness, none of that. That's the thing. Right? And I coached this this, this person who was is deep into their career. I think she's probably near 60 and was really struggling with, even in her success, was struggling with her sense of satisfaction. Right? Struggling with her relationships, feeling misunderstood. Right? So she's kind of at this vantage point of going, I'm starting to reflect now. Right? I was hard charging, take, you know, take over the world, dominate what I had to dominate, and I put a lot of points on that board.
Scott Allender [00:21:12]:
And now I'm completely unsatisfied, and I'm looking back, and I realize I'm on the back 9 of this course, and I am going, it's not working for me. All this strategy that actually did work for me, it's not working for who I really am. Right? There's something not there. 3 coaching sessions in, and this is not, you know, an an advertisement for hiring me because I don't usually make people cry. But we were doing a coaching session, and she completely, like, opened up and connected to all this denied vulnerability and how much that all of her powering up and toughness and take charge and be a strong leader, all of those things were always serving to protect what was truly going on inside of her, which was she was deathly afraid of feeling vulnerable because as a young person, vulnerability was not okay. And she was taken advantage of and hurt in many, many ways. That moment was so rewarding. Right? That was those are the kinds of moments I couldn't have.
Scott Allender [00:22:17]:
And and I don't take credit for that, but I couldn't have even helped facilitate that for her had I not done the work that I'd been doing over the last decade. And for her and I, and she checked in with me, you know, a while later, it was a first step in unlocking all sorts of new sense of purpose in her work and what she was gonna do next and in this next chapter. And, you know, and she since reported back that, you know, relationships are improving, all the things that actually are gonna matter when she she retires or when she's at the end of her life and she's thinking back. Like, those are the kinds of things, and she realized it's not too late for me. And and it's just a beautiful moment and example, and I think she's now senses I have new purpose.
James Glover [00:23:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. And there's something really wonderful in this for me, which is, how purpose just makes more things possible for people. So, you know, did she have to change role? Did she have to change? I mean, I'm making a bunch of assumptions here because it wasn't in the story, but it doesn't sound like there was many of the fundamental shifts and changes, like the tactical shifts and changes that people do to go, oh, this isn't working for me here. I need to go get something else. It was actually the shift in her that created an an ability to see that more was possible and and that she was able to connect with that possibility at a far more deeper and fulfilling level, purely because this kind of almost temporal experience, the kind of the time travel that's possible when you invest in meaning and significance enabled her to make sense of something that had gone before in a completely different way. Didn't make it any less true, but the kind of the sense making experience associated with it was something that was that was different for her. I I'm I'm really intrigued to to, you know, this this individual had the benefit of your support who had been through the experience and done the work.
James Glover [00:24:13]:
Right? And there are there've been other guests on this podcast where we've talked about doing the work. And we don't shy away from saying that to people, like, there is no quick fix here. If you're looking for that, you know, there are plenty of TED Talks that will say find your purpose in 3 minutes, and none of them will help you because it's not how it that's not how this this goes. Like, you need to invest the effort. But there there was a this moment for you, if we come back around to that, where you could have blown that off. Right? You could have been like, wow. I was under a huge amount of pressure to get to where I needed to go. I was in my rental car.
James Glover [00:24:45]:
Like, you could have made any level of justification about why you had that experience that didn't and wouldn't necessarily have led to where you are now. So what was it about that moment, and what did you do afterwards that kind of cemented it as a I've got some choices and some decisions to make here about what this means to me and what the future might look like?
Scott Allender [00:25:09]:
Yeah. It didn't feel like I could ignore it. Honestly, it felt so unexpected, overwhelming, uncomfortable, all the negative. Like, it's I had felt so much in that, like, experience that it didn't feel like I could ignore it. But you're right. I could've tried. You know, I I went to sleep in the hotel room. Next morning, I I'd remembered that, a friend of mine who I hadn't spoken to a while had told me that, you know, he had had an anxiety attack a couple years before.
Scott Allender [00:25:48]:
I'm like, I need to reach out to that person and sort of find out, like, what was that experience? What did you do with it? Right? So it's still very like, okay. What do I have to do? Like, what's the what's the hack? Like, how do I get through this really quickly? Because this was really inconvenient.
James Glover [00:26:02]:
A tool here or a trick
Scott Allender [00:26:04]:
to help me cut through this. Yes. I like the idea of a 3 minute TED Talk. That sounds great. What was really interesting is that I was in a city adjacent to where this friend lived, and I went for a walk that morning, and I was thinking, I gotta call him. I gotta call him. And from across the street, I hear my name shouted out, and it was him. Like, it was the most, like, serendipitous, unexpected like, I couldn't even imagine.
Scott Allender [00:26:28]:
Like, anyway, I walk over and, I just immediately just told him what had happened. And because of his work that he had done, he was able to pay forward kinda his journey, and it turned out there was no hack. There was no just one thing to do. Right? There was all this stuff. And he started asking me pretty provocative questions around, you know, my own sort of sense of emotional connectivity and be able to articulate at a granular level what I was feeling and all the things. And I recognized then that I really struggled with that. Right? People, you know, how are you feeling, Scott, was good, fine, great, I'm tired. You know, hungry.
Scott Allender [00:27:11]:
That's it. Those yeah. Busy. I feel really busy. Yeah. Next week next week, things will slow down. Right? That's what you say, forever until you die. But I didn't, I didn't really have a sense on a granular level.
Scott Allender [00:27:23]:
And so, you know, I remember looking at a feelings wheel and I was like, man, there's a lot of, like, descriptions of emotions. And so that set me I I don't know. I just I think the I think the overwhelm and out of the blue nature of this thing that I had never had in my life felt like I couldn't ignore it. And then, thankfully, I reconnected with a person who'd been through it. So it's like this pay it forward kind of thing. And I I started talking to him on a weekly basis for for weeks, over the phone. We don't live in the same state, but, and that really kinda pointed me towards some things while helping me feel like I wasn't, you know, like this wasn't so crazy or abnormal. Right? Like, that these things happen and that it's not your body failing you.
Scott Allender [00:28:14]:
It's actually a mechanism to awaken you and to alert you. Go back to the somatic rudder that I said earlier that we tend to ignore and sort of devalue. And as a society, it's like if we're gonna if we're gonna ignore all the emotional experience, if we're gonna put that stuff aside, just stay busy, just stay accomplishing, just stay successful. Eventually, your body will sound an alarm. Right? You're that's that's the gift of the body. My body was like, hey, stupid. You need to wake up. There's there's a lot more going on.
Scott Allender [00:28:49]:
You know, tap tap tap.
James Glover [00:28:50]:
You drive. We let you drive for long enough. You know, you're you're making a mess of this. So we're we're coming back in here. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing.
James Glover [00:29:00]:
Amazing. And again, I think there's just something deeply human. I mean, there there are 2 things that get me wildly excited here. 1 is this idea that you were thinking really hard about this person, and then there they were. Like, you know, the magic of the universe. Right? The universe knows. The universe is teaching me some lessons I don't like right now about patience. But, you know, I'm I trust in trust in the universe, things will show themselves in the right way.
James Glover [00:29:24]:
And the fact that that that occurred in that moment, there is just something really magical about human beings, which is, you know, we are not alone, you know, for the fear of breaking into a Michael Jackson song. Like, the reality is we we are successful because of our ability to to come together. And when we're experiencing that level of, you know, deep, deep uncertainty and the vulnerability that comes with it to to be able to have somebody else in that to go, hey. Look. You are not alone. And Yes. I understand, and I see you. And this isn't some kind of abnormality here.
James Glover [00:30:03]:
This is supposed to happen to you because you made some choices that didn't serve you very well. But guess what? You can see some stuff and make some different choices and figure out what goes on from there.
Scott Allender [00:30:14]:
I love that you said that. I I think the one of the biggest self delusions we have is that we're all separate and individual. Right? And we're in truth, we're all connected. We're all part of the whole. We're all part of one thing. And and quite honestly, and as was evidenced in my story, you know, when we do our healing work, we help other people heal too. Right. And that's and that's part of what shifted for me and my focus on building this thing called emotional intelligence is we can't build emotional intelligence in ourselves or in other people until we also include a conversation around emotional well-being and emotional healing.
Scott Allender [00:30:57]:
And, you know, we we're all these sort of semi broken people that have gone through difficult things, and then we're told, well, James, you need to dial up this attribute of your emotional intelligence and dial this thing down, and here's the sort of playbook for how you could show up in ways that'll make my life easier, at least. And there's not a lot of space for well but, James, what needs healing in you? Right? What needs what needs to be sort of what stories are you holding and frames are you holding that you haven't fully, you know, explored and the the sort of frames that that might like, might be self limiting beliefs because of some internalized message you carried as a child. And one of the things that led to for me is I think what I realized, which is consistent with my enneagram type, I internalize the message that my own feelings and identity weren't important. That is what you do and and how you succeed and how you do it for people that makes you valuable. Beyond that, you don't actually have a lot of worth. So part of my healing journey was to start to release the grip on that lie and find my sense of worth separate from what I do. And in doing that, that helps make what I do that much richer, hopefully, because I've got a much more grounded sense of self in that.
James Glover [00:32:20]:
And, I mean, that's almost like a perfect segue really into kind of how you make sense of purpose in the here and now. You know, kind of that that story takes us on a bit of a journey to to today, and I am I'm really interested in in kind of what underpins now your sense of self worth. Like, what are the things that kind of anchor that for you? Where are the strongest influences, if you like, in in in that context around your sense of self worth?
Scott Allender [00:32:49]:
Yeah. It's a good question. I think I I'm I'm hugely reliant on my relationships. I think when I say reliant, I don't I don't mean codependent. I just mean that, you know, my my my wife and my kids and my closest friends, they all serve as a very important mirror for me and marrying back to me the way that I show up for them. I also think that my my greater connectivity to my own personal, emotional, and somatic are are really sort of helpful in in me kind of maintaining, what because you you meant you said this earlier about how purpose creates more optionality, and I couldn't agree more. And I I I say the same thing about awareness. And as I and and if and when I'm doing my my body work, my emotional work, my, you know, sort of all the work, my sense of self is more holistic, and it's more rooted in a truth and in a confidence of my own value, separate from my accomplishments.
Scott Allender [00:34:11]:
But the stories that we hold and the frames that we hold, they're they're they're pretty ingrained in us as well. And so I I part of the importance of staying connected to my somatic and emotional rudder is to know when I'm being pulled back into the false narrative that caused me all my trouble to begin with. I think of a story. If I'm going too far afield, you can cut this out. But I I I think of this the story of Andre Agassi, the tennis player. You know, about him very deep you're familiar with him.
James Glover [00:34:43]:
Oh, man. Are you kidding me? I'm, like, 43 years old. Mister Tennis. Nineties. Grew up with was, like, world number 1.
Scott Allender [00:34:49]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's been
James Glover [00:34:51]:
a man of Wimbledon by not wearing white and all that kind of jazz
Scott Allender [00:34:55]:
and and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
James Glover [00:34:56]:
No bandanas, and now he's got no hair.
Scott Allender [00:34:59]:
I forgot who I was talking to. Sorry. Yes. Of course, you're familiar. But at the end of all of that, he said that he hated every minute that he played tennis. And when asked, well, why did he play and why was he so successful at it? And he said, my my father didn't know where his love for tennis ended and his love for me began. And so he set out you talk about being performative and successful without really paying attention or valuing what's truly going on and then living that truth and that purpose. His sort of his lens was, and understandably so, I will feel love from my father.
Scott Allender [00:35:41]:
Therefore, I will feel a sense of worth in the world if I'm very successful at this thing that he loves. Well, I'm obviously no tennis player, and I'm not very talented at very many things you know, athletic. But I I relate to that so deeply. I I know when my lens has changed, not right away all the time, but I know when I'm starting to lose focus and I'm starting to go back to whatever my sort of proverbial tennis matches are, and I'm losing sense with a truer depiction of my whole self, if that makes sense.
James Glover [00:36:18]:
Yeah. You were you'd have seen me just quickly, like, scribble because you just said something there that that kind of pissed my soul a little bit where you you, you created this frame right at the beginning about the the kind of the tension and or relationship between the need in you and the need in the world. And the the the actually, if we over index on the need in the world and we negate the kind of the need in in us, then that misalignment causes a whole load of costs. You know, and some of those can be very serious to to self and potentially to to those around us. And just in in terms of what you were saying there, something really struck me, which is that when you talk about the need in you, what is true for you? That what is true or truth could be a feeling. And knowing what the feelings are that are you at your best or you in the right place or you with a level of alignment, what that feels like feels like truth rather than a cognitive awareness to a particular set of circumstances or, you know, tangible outcomes. It's just a, do I know how it feels to be in truth?
Scott Allender [00:37:32]:
Yeah. And you're opening up a big can, I think, because it's it's it's tough to know when my feelings are affirming a sort of egoic, prideful sense of accomplishment, which feels really addictive and good? Right? Like when when you, you know, when I when I was when I'm getting applause for what I do, right, if I if I'm sure Andre felt really good with the cheers and right? That feels good. And your feelings therefore feel like affirmation. And the man doing the right thing. And so you
James Glover [00:38:11]:
had Brooke Shields on his arm. Right.
Scott Allender [00:38:13]:
Yes. That feels really affirming to me. Right. What I feel like, what, what I've learned is that the the feeling of living in my truth truth also includes connecting with negative emotions, right. Or negatively experienced emotions. It's allowing, it's allowing myself to maybe feel a little bit gloomier down on a cloudy day when things around me are a little bit strained or difficult. Whereas before, I would have had a propensity to chase, do the thing that would provoke the best high in me. Right? So emotional granularity and emotional, the breath opening up the breath of the whole experience of our emotions means that we need to let the less, desirable ones in as well.
Scott Allender [00:39:13]:
And when I have a a greater spectrum of emotional experience, that's a better indicator for me that I'm living in my authentic place.
James Glover [00:39:24]:
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Because I'm kind of sat here thinking about those that are listening. They're kind of driving along in their car or maybe they're walking their dog or wherever they may be. And this idea of what's the what is what's the truth in me? What's the need in the world? What's the alignment between those two things? How and where do I begin to kind of make sense of of that? What's the right information to be paying attention to? And what what I really love here is the simple start point is more. Is there more? Is there something beyond what you're seeing and experiencing right now that you need to see and experience that that for whatever reason you may be ignoring or suppressing or, you know, rejecting entirely, What what's just the kind of the what does the morbid look like? And that that kind of freedom that you're suggesting here, which is doesn't have to be about the stuff that makes you feel good. It's just about the stuff that is real.
James Glover [00:40:27]:
And the more that you're kinda feeling the stuff that's real, the more you'll get to the point of knowing, holy shit. That feels true for me too. Like, I can't deny one of the ways in which, one of the wrestles I have and continue to have, and it doesn't matter how aware I become of it, that just kind of peeling the layers is meeting expectation of others. It's one of the biggest challenges I face to my own sense of self worth continually is, this reinforced notion of if you do things for other people and you do it in a way that they really appreciate, the people that care about you most feel a sense of pride. And anything else outside of that is just not good enough. So you have to be good in the eyes of other people. And, there's a point at which I've stopped going, right, how do I change this? Like, how do I stop this? How do I eradicate this? And gone, alright. Cool.
James Glover [00:41:18]:
You just need to accept that there's a part of you that goes after that because, let's be honest, feels really good when people are going, wow. Well done. You're amazing at this. And, wow, that's so helpful, and I really appreciate it. And I couldn't have done this without you. Like, yeah. Cool. I'm I'm I'm definitely experiencing the positive side effect of that.
James Glover [00:41:40]:
And I need to acknowledge that I'm externalizing my own sense of self worth to the feedback of somebody else who doesn't know me. Doesn't know me at all. And I have to hold both of those things as being true in me and make some choices around that, which is which bits of that feedback do I wanna let in? Which bits of that feedback are connecting to that sense of ego and and younger self that still exists? And which bit of that do I need to manage more effectively and not allow to wound me or deflect me, but actually enable me to grow in a completely different way, but hold both.
Scott Allender [00:42:22]:
I that's a mic drop summary. I love everything you just said. And it's not about trying to stop and resist. It's about noticing. I use a it's a little cheesy, but I hold in my head a little acronym. I use, SNAP, s n a p, right, which is kind of a way to remind myself of doing exactly that. And I sometimes use it with coaching or Enneagram teaching, which is just the first thing to do is stop. Right? Because that's that's one of the hardest things for most of us.
Scott Allender [00:42:51]:
Right? Is we're so just in automatic sort of just going through our day. Right? You get to the end of it. You barely even can remember what you did or why you did it. You just move. We're always moving. Right? Or distracting. Right? We're all on our phone. So just sometimes just when you're facing something like that, chasing the applause or no you know, just stopping long enough to then notice, which is the second and the just notice what's going on.
Scott Allender [00:43:18]:
What is true in me right now? What am I feeling? What's my body telling me? I'm I have this, like, sense of irritation or whatever's going on. First thing I need to ask is, am I sleeping? Did I eat? Right? Like, basic toddler level stuff that we sometimes forget as an adult. Right? Like, I just need an apple right now. Like, that that could change everything. Right? And then
James Glover [00:43:41]:
and that's the ask.
Scott Allender [00:43:41]:
Right? So you stop and you notice, then the a is ask. Like, ask what's what's true in me right now? Is it serving me? Is it the narrative I wanna be living out right now? So you mentioned, you know, you acknowledge that you really like the attaboys. We all do. Right? Like, the pats on the back, the pause, the the help you give, the people that say you're doing really great. Ask what's motivating you in that. Before then, the p would be then proceed. Right? Proceed in a intentional direction that you actually want to go versus just automatic reactivity, which is truthfully what I think most of our us are doing all the time. Right? It it's it serves a biological, benefit, right, that we have these habit centers in our brains, and we can, like, just automate so much of our actions through our lives and drive the car and yell at the kids at the same time.
Scott Allender [00:44:34]:
Like, all of that is very, very helpful, but it also gets us quickly stuck in just automation. And, you know, that's what I I think my biggest in that moment of my anxiety was that I was living on autopilot. It was just I had this automation. It wasn't all bad. It wasn't all good. It wasn't all anything. It just was not fully felt because I was like and so when one of the the things that I think we need to do, you know, that Viktor Frankl quote quote about between stimulus and response, there's a space. I think this work is about widening that space.
Scott Allender [00:45:14]:
Right? If you wanna live purposefully, intentionally with more optionality, doing this kind of work, it doesn't it doesn't change what you're prone to like. It doesn't change the hardwiring, but you can widen the space between stimulus and response.
James Glover [00:45:32]:
Yeah. Love it. Love it. Love it. So so kind of final step in our journey and our conversation here, Scott. So there is the the kind of a pivotal moment, which just really like, well, things aren't gonna be the same ever again after experiencing that. Let's let's let's kind of let's confront a new reality. Let's do the work around that.
James Glover [00:45:53]:
And then there's this sense of here in the moment, actually, the the kind of the foundations of self worth come from a a space of the kind of the authenticity the authenticity of of truth in me, which is a spectrum of feeling experiences, and actually the use of relationship and the people that are closest as mirrors. And even that language is really powerful. Right? Because if you put yourself in front of a mirror, you there's a there's a part of this which is do you like what you see? But that's probably a different can to to be opening up. And and, and and how and how how you utilize those people that are closest to you to to, I guess, regulate that that sense of truth and authenticity in you and kind of maintain that and come back to that so the ego doesn't run roughshod. I'm I'm thinking about the kind of the way forward here. So, you know, you, you took the time not only to just do the work on yourself, but to think about how you bring that work to the world. So there was this kind of reengagement of the truth in you with the need in the world. And, you know, you wrote a book and and and challenged, actually, challenged a set of principles and ideas that have really have fought really hard to gain some kind of traction.
James Glover [00:47:17]:
So this idea of emotional intelligence, you know, has has taken time to be able to erode the cast iron, you know, intellect is all that matters. And there's, you know, if if you if you don't have the cognitive capacity, then you can never succeed to then turn around and go, well, actually, there's something different here that's important to pay attention to. And now you're going, yeah, but that's only part of it. There's more. So what is it what is it about that journey that you are now on? Where is that taking you? Like, what's what led to the book, and now where's beyond? What's the leaps of faith that are coming because of this kind of shift in in sense of purpose for you?
Scott Allender [00:47:57]:
Yeah. Well, I think everything that we've been talking about led to the book, in that I think we get so much of the emotional intelligence conversation wrong. We touched on much of that. Right? We don't we don't create a lot of space for emotional experiencing. We don't we don't include emotional healing and wholeness and well-being in the conversation very often. And we have a completely mental model for developing emotional intelligence almost exclusively. Right? And so the book, I could use a, a Carl Jung statement to kind of give the motivation of why I wrote it, which is when he said, until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you'll call it fate. There's a lot of unconscious stuff that's happening.
Scott Allender [00:48:44]:
Like, we've been talking about the automation, all the things. And we have this complete mental understanding of emotional intelligence, but we haven't allowed or I don't think created enough space for people to excavate what is unconscious and get connected to all those stories. So I wanted to bring the 2 models together. So I used a particular model. There are several models and measures of emotional intelligence, but I used one that, is around the the the certification and coaching practice I did. And then I wanted to align the Enneagram to say, could we use this system, which is really about getting underneath the hood of awareness deeper in into, layers of unconscious motivations and repressed fears and all these things to then bring about this thing called greater awareness. And so that was the whole idea of the book. It's it's it's been well really well received.
Scott Allender [00:49:39]:
It came out just, just hit the year mark. It's leading to a lot more coaching and teaching and and those kinds of things, and hopefully, more and more moments of just little ahas. Right? Not trying to change the world overnight by any means. I'm not even trying to help people do one eighties in their life. I'm I'm a big proponent of if you can create a 1 or 2 degree shift in your direction of travel, It may not feel like you're anywhere different tomorrow because you really won't be. But you take that direction of travel, that one degree shift out over 365 days, you're in completely unrecognizable play, like different different places. And so that's been hugely important. And, you know, coming back to the mirror comment and the sort of saying anchored in a sense of awareness.
Scott Allender [00:50:38]:
I was I was I was recently a best man at my my friend's wedding, which I I didn't think at my age I'd be a best man at at a wedding, but I here I was, a few weeks back. And, my friend, the groom, he at the rehearsal dinner, he he brought a sphere, a little like a marble. He collects these things, I guess. And I didn't know this. Right? So new new information about my my best friend. But, it it was a beautiful illustration, and he was he was talking about it. Everybody in that room, we are we are each like a sphere. And, you know, a sphere, you can't see all sides of it at the same time.
Scott Allender [00:51:20]:
Right? So if I look at myself, my own sort of representation, I can see this side of it. I can even turn it around and look at the other side of it. But when I do that, I lose the perspective of the original side and that we need all of these people in our lives, these relationships, these family, friends, whoever, to help us be able to see around compassionately and with tenderness and care, all the sides of the sphere. And that's the only way we ever have true perspective. And we touched on this earlier about, you know, this deception that we are all individual. And I loved that illustration because it was such a good reminder for me to never let go of the people who can see the entirety of my sphere. And that my awareness and staying anchored and grounded in the things that are most purposeful for me require that. I need that in my life.
James Glover [00:52:24]:
There's a, there's just a really simple power in acknowledging the need for for continually finding perspective. And what an elegant and beautiful way of being able to say that, you know, who who is it? Who are the people that help you see the whole sphere? And how often are you connecting with them, seeking their insight, seeing the world through their lens, calibrating where you are with them? Like, it feels like that's a way of being able to, create a 360 degree mirror. Right? That's a total 3 d, 4 d experience of that kind of mirror experience. Yeah. Wow. Amazing. Amazing. I think the the the ability to land on perspective is kind of being the final thought in our conversation today, Scott, feels like a really brilliant way for people to kind of just sit back for a moment and consider, like, you know, what is what is the lens that's driving your understanding of truth in yourself and need in the world right now? You know, where and what and who can help you see a little bit more than you are right now? What what are you paying attention to? And maybe even at some point during today, you might find yourself kind of triggered into a state that you're now aware of that you weren't before, and they can maybe they maybe dive into the snap.
James Glover [00:53:54]:
Right? Just stop and notice and ask yourself some questions and then think about what's the intentional choice I need to make here to to, to proceed forward. So, I guess from my perspective, I just wanna say a massive thank you for taking the time to to kind of dive into this conversation with us.
Scott Allender [00:54:12]:
My pleasure. Thank you.
James Glover [00:54:13]:
Within the show notes, there'll be links to to, to you and to your book and to the work that you, you're doing in and around Enneagram, which is massively worth massively worth, diving into. So thank you so much, Scott.
Scott Allender [00:54:27]:
Thanks, James.
James Glover [00:54:29]:
Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitablesoul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.