Episode #22: Simon Lamb
Inner Voice and Life's Meaning: A journey of Rediscovery, Healing, and Meaningful Impact
Welcome back to another episode of The Excitable Soul Podcast.
Today, we’re diving deep into the concept of purpose with our extraordinary guest, Simon Lamb. Simon is known for his immense ability to help individuals and teams make sense of their stories and spark impactful change through his organisation, Purposeful Change.
In this reflective and thought-provoking episode, Simon opens up about the sense of purpose that feels like an external voice guiding him, discovered through the immersive world of theatre and the state of flow. He delves into how this purpose anchors him in a calm, judgment-free space where he now coaches others.
Simon shares his deeply personal journey, touching on the challenges of parenting a child with autism, rediscovering his purpose while working at the BBC, and learning to see life through diverse perspectives. He passionately discusses managing the cacophony of voices in his head with positive affirmations and offers valuable insights on how the thoughts we act upon define us.
Together, we explore the delicate balance between owning your purpose whilst also letting it evolve, the importance of daily mindfulness practices, and finding moments of flow in the day-to-day. Simon highlights the importance of energetic boundaries and stepping back from life’s busyness to gain greater self-awareness.
Join us for a captivating discussion that ventures into the essence of purpose, the power of acceptance versus acknowledgement, and the journey of surrendering to something greater than ourselves.
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Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:44]:
So let's get going, shall we? Today's guest is Simon Lamb. Simon is known for his charisma, passion, and openness. He wants to break with the traditional expectations of a consultant by approaching even the largest organizations on a deeply human level. In his own words, Simon helps people and teams to make sense of the world and their own story and shows them they always have a choice and that you have the capability to shift more than you think. Simon's dedication to creating interventions that spark ongoing impact and evolution fueled him to found the organization Purposeful Change, a business whose clients include Microsoft HSBC, Nike, Shell, NatWest, and many more. Simon's superpower is sparking people to use their imagination to solve problems at their root. And I think this conversation will spark many of your imaginations too. It certainly did mine.
James Glover [00:01:43]:
Enjoy. Alright. Simon, welcome to the excitable soul podcast, my friend. Wonderful to to have you with us. How are you feeling today?
Simon Lamb [00:01:53]:
I am feeling reflective, and excited, actually. I think I'm a bit of an excitable soul today. I've it's, you know, inspired by by you. Yeah. I I've got a lot on my plate, but it's all good stuff.
James Glover [00:02:08]:
Amazing. Amazing. Thank you. And I, as people will have kind of heard from the from the introduction, you are a kind of a purpose practitioner, you kind of immerse yourself in the kind of the world of these conversations on a day to day basis. But we've kind of flipped it on you today in that you're normally the one asking the questions and kind of provoking thought, and instead, you're on the receiving end of some big questions. How does that feel for you?
Simon Lamb [00:02:33]:
Yeah. It's, it's both fun, but also a little bit anxious making. I was, like, kind of little positive butterflies in my stomach of having the spotlight suddenly turned on me. But let's let's play anyway. Let's see. Let's see how I go. Wow. Can I can I actually live up to my own work?
James Glover [00:02:51]:
I have absolutely no doubt that that that that will be the case. And also, you and I had a conversation a few months ago where we kinda described ourselves as messy men not messing around. And I, yeah, I really hope that that's kind of the the texture and the nature of this this conversation today, actually, us being able to kind of demonstrate and role model holding attention between being really serious about what matters to us, but also kinda getting it wrong.
Simon Lamb [00:03:22]:
Well, you know me. That's that's that's definitely gonna happen. And, you know, I feel like I'm a baby in life even at 50. I've got no clue about what the hell I'm doing most of the days. And you're right. I'm I'm pretty serious about what I do. It's it's important stuff, but lighthearted too. So let's play.
James Glover [00:03:39]:
Yeah. Big time. Alright. So, just kind of a maybe a slightly different start point jumping off point just given the nature of your kind of experience and insights, really, Simon. What what does what does purpose mean to you? And, like, why why has it become central in who you are and how you go to work?
Simon Lamb [00:03:58]:
Wow. I mean, that's a interesting question because that the answer to that question has evolved significantly over the years. I mean, I think when I first started out, purpose meant something like something written down on a piece of paper that was meaningful. I mean, still had it was something that was, a statement of intent in the universe that meant something more than, you know, the sum of your own parts. It's like, something that's bigger than you. I think today, purpose is like that core inner motivation, that core secret sauce. For me, my purpose is all about my, kind of my uncommon sense, the the the thing that makes me unique in the world and yet connected to everything. And and these days, it it rather than it being a thing that's written down, I think for me now, it's almost like this whisper on the wind.
Simon Lamb [00:04:53]:
It's it's my calling. It's my it's the thing that's drawing me forth in life. And sometimes I don't quite know exactly what it is, but it's there. It's present. It's a feeling. Instead of getting people to write things down, a lot of times these days, I'm asking people to create mood boards or, you know, make a sense of it because it's not clear. It's also the other thing I think that's important is it's not the voice in my head. It's the voice that comes quietly from beyond me because I find that mostly the voice in my head is some form of egoic fear or, you know, drive, if that makes any sense.
James Glover [00:05:30]:
I makes, makes a ton of sense. And already there's, like, loads of stuff that I want to kinda grab grab onto and wrestle with. But let's just stay with that kind of final point for a second, the difference in the voices. And, I'm curious around 2 things. 1 is, how did you become aware that the voices were different and coming from different places? And then how do you continue to acknowledge and pay attention to the difference in those voices and utilize them, access them, engage with them differently?
Simon Lamb [00:06:01]:
And that's another great question, and the truth immediately goes to me. I I have an image of myself riding up a hill on a bike. It was in, near Leatherhead in Surrey. I, I've married, a lady called Lucy, a wonderful human being, who remains a really good friend of mine, my ex wife. And I had suffered I was suffering had suffered most of my life from some significant form of mental illness. I've had it looked at a number of times. There's some life history there probably in it, but the voices in my head used to take me over. They used to command me.
Simon Lamb [00:06:42]:
And I I think I got really scared one day when someone said I remember watching a TV program, and it's like, be careful what you think because, you know, it's you manifest it. And I think I realized through the process of getting myself better, nothing really worked. The drugs definitely didn't work. I gave them up quickly. They actually made me worse. The counseling mildly helped. What I found in the moment was re reframing the voices in my head, which were loud at the time, very self critical, very fear orientated. And I learned through the process of when I was riding up the hill, and I was unwell, I used to cycle.
Simon Lamb [00:07:25]:
And every time, I used to use a positive affirmation for each turn of the cycle wheel. And so when a negative thought came into my head, I feel quite emotional now, I taught myself a mantra of I am love. I am love. And I used my mantra to drown out the voices of the other system. And, that helped. And slowly after repeating these mantras of I'm worth it, I'm enough, I'm I'm I'm love, I realized these voices other voices started to go away. And so, yeah, it's it's a it's a strange thing, but I think it's it's come from suffering and overly listening to the voices of criticism, the voices of fear, the voices of arrogance even at times, the voices teach they're kind of beckoning you to do things that you may even want to do, make choices you don't want to make. And, actually, through that process, I realized that what I'd heard that person say on that, either TV show or radio show that you're the things you think define you is actually not true.
Simon Lamb [00:08:30]:
Your the voice in your head is not you. They're just thoughts. Those thought that it's only the thoughts you choose to act upon that define you, and I noticed that nuance was massive. And so I realized there was this voice in my head that told me a whole bunch of rubbish, a whole bunch of bloody lies, and a whole bunch of misinformation through being ill.
James Glover [00:08:51]:
Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. And well, I say, yeah. Brilliant. I'm sorry that you kind of went through that experience. I guess the Yeah, brilliant bit is the kind of the insight that's generated there and the kind of the differentiation between the the the kind of the words that are being told to you or fed to you. And then the choices that you make in terms of the actions that you have and which one actually defines who you are.
James Glover [00:09:15]:
And I'm and so I'm wondering then, you you almost described this kind of sense of purpose as being a voice that was outside of you, kind of pulling you towards something. So when did when did that kind of voice then appear in this journey? And how did you how did you understand its difference, its distinction from the voices that you'd experienced before?
Simon Lamb [00:09:37]:
Because it gave me a different feeling in my body, a different sense of being. And I I looked at the moments where I almost, you know, look at this process we call work with a lady called Kate Downey Evans, and we work in the space of genius mindset of identifying the moments when you're at your best and what you're thinking. And all I noticed about those moments was, those moments where the voice wasn't inside my head. It was almost, like you say, outside of my body, beckoning me forwards. And I just had a different sense, a more floaty sense in my body. My my background's theater. In those days when I was riding up the hill, they that was a day background's theater. In those days when I was riding up the hill, they that was a day when I was traveling from my theater to my home.
Simon Lamb [00:10:19]:
And being an actor, you have to do a lot of work on yourself, do a lot of work on sensing into things, listening to different voices, listening to different motivations. And I think the training of actors, the arts actually is really interesting. People call them the soft skills. I call them the skills for hard times. Because, actually, you are having to become, aware of what's going on in your body and how your body is affecting your mind and what your mind is saying and seeing the connection between you and all of the things inside of you, but then also to go beyond you. And so it was through experimentation, I think, of working with myself and working having to play characters, having to set up different seat, and and understanding their inner motivations, they started to discover mine. And, also, even further back from that, I think in the in the upset of my parents' very messy divorce, I found my community in theater. That was my that was my moment.
Simon Lamb [00:11:22]:
I found at the moment where I felt most rejected by my parents and their messiness, I found theater as a child, and, that was the moment where I felt most connected, most joy, and was able to follow a path. And and and through that theater experience, I found this state called flow. So when I was acting, I wasn't I wasn't thinking. I wasn't you know, those kind of sporting moments, I used to find it in rugby, I find it in sailing, It's those moments where your body and everything's just happening, and you're almost above yourself, and you're in it. You're in the system. You're just you're surrendered to the whole blooming madness of it. Or it all could go wrong, but you're kind of in it and just prepared, allowing your body to do it. So it's that state of flow.
Simon Lamb [00:12:12]:
That's the moment where I feel and I've got goosebumps on my body now. It's like that's the moment where I found purpose. And having the fortune of working in theater, I discovered flow. I I discovered that state, and it was very different from the contracted state that was the opposite of fear.
James Glover [00:12:31]:
Yeah. Amazing. And when I when I listen to you describe that journey and experience, Simon. There's, and especially when you're, when you're kind of sharing how you experience flow. Because, again, flow is one of those those terminologies, a bit like mindset, where we kind of hear it. But unless you've experienced it for yourself and have a sense for yourself what it feels like, it can be quite it can be quite, I almost wanna use the word disjointed, and I guess that's partly because the experience of flow is the one where the kind of the body and the mind are aligned and in a sense of almost kind of freedom in the interaction between the 2 of them. And so when you talk about, you know, kind of sailing or rugby or be it or performing in general, that things are lined up, things are joined up, things are connected. And, yeah, it's the connection.
James Glover [00:13:31]:
Right? And and understanding where and how to to cultivate that kind of that kind of connection. How has that then grown and evolved, your understanding of that over time?
Simon Lamb [00:13:43]:
Well, I think as I found it first in theater, I then I think I buried it for a while. My son was diagnosed autistic about the age of 2a half, and he didn't really speak and and make eye contact till, like, 5 or 6 years old. It'd been it was a difficult time. And my job in theater became impossible. It the number of hours that demanded of me, the way that I was working, 100 hour weeks, very low income. We were living in a council flat at the time, just wouldn't work. And so I I moved into the world of commerce. I had to get a job.
Simon Lamb [00:14:16]:
I had to get something more stable. Simon had to grow up, and, I think I buried it for a while. And that made me very unhappy. I went back into, forms all sorts of forms of depression and lostness and disconnection, until I, I I joined the BBC. And the BBC was back to my again, this idea of a feeling when I walked through the door of the BBC, I was like, oh, I'm in my tribe. This is where I'm meant to be. Again, it wasn't a thought. It wasn't something conscious.
Simon Lamb [00:14:47]:
It was just a wow. Like, I'm connected. I feel part of something worthwhile. And so that that and that motivated me. I worked harder, and I was healthier while I was working harder, if that makes any sense. So I started to notice and discern that. And then later in life, you know, just finding I think now is the moment it's evolved to the point where that's how I coach. I mean, it's not or how I run an event if I'm in a room with 10 people, 500 people, 3000 people, or I'm coaching 1 on 1.
Simon Lamb [00:15:21]:
I've learned to connect to myself to the wider system. This might sound weird, but I like I I like find that sense of purpose to require a calm place. Rumi says it in the poem. It's a it's a field, you know, and and it's a place beyond judgment and beyond, you know, right doing and wrongdoing. There's that beautiful Rumi poem, and it's like a field. And when I sit in that field, things come through me. Life happens for me, not to me, if that makes any sense. And so, you know, it it's evolved to be a place where I do my best work from, and I've worked out that when I'm in that place, I'm living my purpose, helping people see themselves and see their lives from multiple other perspectives.
James Glover [00:16:07]:
Yeah. And so let's just let's just break this down for a second, Simon, because the there's there's so much richness in this for for people who are listening to this conversation. A, let's help them kind of make sense of these different layers and also be kind of access access some of it, like utilize it for themselves in that. The first thing for me is this understanding of your definition of purpose now is isn't isn't a feeling is in a felt experience. It's not about a written articulation, and there's a difference between those those two things. One one helpfully led to the other. So it's not about kind of right or wrong here. It's about understanding how you experience purpose and a willingness to both own that in the moment and let go of it as you understand it more.
James Glover [00:16:56]:
So there's something there's something about that, which I'd be really interested in your your kind of your your perspective on then there was also something here about tension. And, you know, you started with kind of purpose being the unique contribution, but also, you know, what makes me unique in the world, but also connects me to everything, and this kind of sense of system in the universe and being able to hold the tension between who we are and what's happening beyond us. And I think the way that you just use that example there of, you know, almost kind of being on stage, and if you're in front of 100 or even, you know, potentially 1000 of people, there is no there is a way to be both calm in yourself and connected to all of those people at the same time and being able to bring that to the floor. So if I'm if I'm listening to this, Ira, and I'm thinking, like, trying to assess where I am on that journey and how I make sense of purpose and how I can hold, how I can use it to hold tension between my unique contribution and and and connectedness to the world. Like, where do I where do I start to access that? Where what's the the kind of the the useful elements of of the journey that you would play back to people?
Simon Lamb [00:18:09]:
Well, I mean, it does, ironically, as you speak, it does start with maybe being a bit more traditional with in approach and an eye orientated in asking some simple questions about who am I, Like, how how do I see myself even though at one level, you're also describing the system where later on down the line, you start to realize there is no I because I exist in relationship with everything. But at first, we almost need to forget that. Let's just start the journey with who am I? Who am I? What who am I really? You know, what was I what was I born into? You know, what was I, you know, what was I born to do into the family system and the community that I came from? Even if the carers that you had didn't particularly look after you well, you they they they gave you an energy even if you rebelled against them. I've written about this a number of times that you're rebelling against your parents is a form of following. Right? Or your rebellion against the community or the religion that you came from is a form of following because the the energy of it still exists in you. You're doing the opposite because in spite of something. And so to look the first step, I think, is looking back and asking, who am I as a function of everything that came before me, of all of the things I that even before my life that were learned and taught to me, you know, all the way down to for me, you know, finish all the food on your plate, you know, being a statement that came from the war and threw my grandmother into my mother into me. And I love food, and I overeat food.
Simon Lamb [00:19:47]:
But I know actually now just so looking at all these inner motivations and drivers, who am I? What do I stand for? What are my values? What is it I you know, what what gives me joy? What brings me energy? You know, and that's a process of writing and journaling and exploring and walking and thinking. So there that that process, I don't want to dismiss because, actually, my purpose would be, if I articulated it in words, would be something along the lines of supporting people, you know, to reframe their their personal narrative, their life, their story, their their definition of who they are in in order to, you know, let go of, disentangle themselves from life's history and create them as a memory. You know, how how do they shift from being a memory of their past to being a memory of their own future, disentangling themselves from the the stuff that doesn't help them. And so I wrote it first. Actually, the first version of my purpose statement I wrote is on a is on a banner somewhere in a temple in Bhutan, on top of a mountain. And I remember the person took it and then took a photograph of it and sent it back to me. So writing is an important part of the process, but it's almost like at the point of it being written, I then throw it away. Because I realized the second part of what you're saying, which is complex but simple at one level is is the is the surrendering to the fact that there is a system beyond me and that that that well, there is no beyond you, actually.
Simon Lamb [00:21:20]:
You are it. Like, every it's like a dance. Right? Every move you make, the system moves to, and you move in response to it. It's about building awareness of where that feels in flow, where that brings joy, where that brings actually not even so much joy. There's so many people who pursue happiness and enjoyment. Like, I've got a very nice car. I enjoy my car. It does not give me fulfilment.
Simon Lamb [00:21:43]:
Right? Things give me enjoyment, but they don't give me fulfillment. And so it's that fulfillment thing that I think I'm looking at as I'm dancing with the world of what gives me that inner sense of bigness, big feeling. And I don't mean arrogance. I mean, wholeness and connection, to it all. And and because you know? And and and most of that comes, that flow state we talked about earlier was just which you said is sometimes disconnecting for people because they feel like they can't get it. The problem with trying to get it is you don't get it because trying to get something is an ego state. You're in fit. You I must have it.
Simon Lamb [00:22:19]:
I'm so, like, I need it. I I want it. The problem is in those mindsets, you don't get it. It's surrender. It's when you let go of the need to have it, you find it, which means you have to step beyond your fear. And so just to be really frank with you, when you talk about how do you step onto stage, I remember as a in most flow, I am on stage, and I'm bricking it. So I have fear, but it doesn't have me. So I'm both bricking and really calm.
Simon Lamb [00:22:46]:
I don't know if I'm making any sense. It's this capacity, I think, of living to be on the balcony of your ego self. That's when you're in purpose. When I'm in purpose, in the purpose mindset, I'm almost beyond myself allowing myself to be in fear or in grief, but still moving and still, fluid. And and does that make any sense?
James Glover [00:23:10]:
Yeah. It it makes sense to me. And if I kind of just play back how it's making sense to me, there there are almost two things emerging from what you're describing. If I where my feeling state goes here is into when you talk about surrender, there is something about acceptance. And when you talk about kind of allowing, there is something here about kind of permission. And and almost this this willingness to to create a level of acceptance of yourself for yourself that that surrenders surrenders just to the the world beyond what's happening inside you. And, like, how you know, you talked about that idea of cycling up the hill and the kind of the voices and and the kind of the journey to understanding purpose being, who are you really? And I and that that word really felt important because there is a, can I acknowledge? Can I own? Can I just accept who I am? Can I surrender to that? Because in that, there is then freedom and choice to to cultivate who I want to become beyond that and into something different. And associated with that is then giving yourself permission to to not just be one thing or act in a certain way or feel a certain stuff, but permission to experience all of it or just more? You know, can I feel fear and be in flow at the same time? So I guess the way I'm making sense of it is in those two things is in there's an acceptance element and a permission element.
James Glover [00:24:50]:
I don't know if that makes a difference next with what you're describing.
Simon Lamb [00:24:53]:
Yeah. Makes total sense. And, yeah, I am I'm noticing my stomach churn a little bit because I have a problem with the word acceptance. Having worked with thousands and thousands of people, when I use the word acceptance too often, they are thinking that people you're saying make the past right. And at some level, I am saying make the past right, but another level, I'm actually saying acknowledge. You don't have to love your history. You don't have to love all the characters in your history. And the problem with acceptance is it's almost like I, you know, I bow to you.
Simon Lamb [00:25:29]:
Some of those characters in my past, I don't wanna bow to, but I I must not exclude them. I need to include them so that I can learn from them. Because if I believe life happens for me, not to me, then every low in my life, every tragedy and and and struggle has meaning and and has a sense of something. And the meaning I may have meant made of it then, if I look back at it now, actually maybe a different meaning. And so it's for me, it's that looking back with new eyes, with fresh eyes to understand what well, how it served me, how all of that served me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna shift. I think my word for it is acknowledgment. You used it.
Simon Lamb [00:26:08]:
I say to people, how can you, even if you can't accept some of your history, acknowledge it happened, and some of the things you did that you're even disgusted by in yourself. There are things I'd look back in the past and think, why did I do that, or how could I have done that to that person or feel guilt or shame about? But to acknowledge that in that feeling as a funny friend of mine, there's a friend of mine, a lady called Claire Pollard. She's, like, in the top clinical psychologist in the world. And I said to her one day, I worry that I could I could be a bad person with all the bad things I did in my life. And she said, dear Simon, psychopathic people don't tend to worry about the bad things they did. They tend to have enjoyed them. So it tells me that you worry so much, you ain't a psychopath. You probably aren't a psychopath.
Simon Lamb [00:26:52]:
So I always played around with that. But but looking back and say, it's it is in the line of acceptance, but acknowledge that happened. Question, what do I learn? What do I learn from it? And and what of it do I carry forwards? And often too much of the time, we're carrying those stories and those those things and projecting them into the future. And, actually, if we can just acknowledge that was then and this is now, I can start to separate myself from the former beings that I work was and the former moments I encountered and start to get myself present to now and who I really am today. And that's where I go to the who the really who am I really? Not the person I project in the world, the things I say I am, or even how I'm experienced. It's like, how how am I really? Like, what is my sense of who I am? And then you're right. Permission permission to dance, permission to fuck it up, permission to permission to play and and lose, permission to play and win and enjoy the win. It's okay to love the win.
Simon Lamb [00:27:53]:
You know? It's okay to mess it up. It's okay to yeah. Yeah. And so permission to give yourself and permission to step through your fear because on the other biggest out of your comfort zone, that's where the learning zone is. We know this. You see the diagrams on the on the walls of all these learning rooms. What I try to do is is say go and experiment in real life beyond your comfort zone and write down what you expect is gonna happen and then tell me what really happened. 99% of the time, what we expect was gonna happen when we give our permission self permission doesn't happen.
James Glover [00:28:27]:
I, I love the reframe around acceptance versus acknowledgment. I guess the the there's something really beautiful in being able to just discuss the different connotation associated with different words and language. And again, not from a place of judgement of like, who's right, who's wrong, but actually how we imbue different words with meaning. And, you know, you you brought up the m word, and I'm so glad we're in that kind of space, which is, you know, the fundamental foundation of all of this work around purpose is meaning. That's what we're really talking about. And I I hear you describing the experience of acceptance in a as almost a process of finding the meaning. And again, it's not judgment. It's not it's not, I'm right or wrong, or this must happen.
James Glover [00:29:22]:
It's a, do I understand it? And can I give myself permission to continue to try and evolve my understanding of it as I evolve? Yes. That feels then closer to this concept of surrender that you were talking about, which is I'm not trying to necessarily fix something or square something. I'm surrendering to the acknowledgment of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing.
James Glover [00:31:42]:
And I'm wondering if that, you know, that kind of that almost naturally moves us into a conversation of, of, of where and how you find and maintain your level of self worth today. Because, you know, you've described really eloquently these kind of experiences in this journey, you know, the kind of the almost the past element and the sense making into this moment. But there's obviously a a constant awareness, a constant effort, a constant connection to maintain that and to engage with that. So what does that look like for you now having done all of this work and have kind of generated all of these these insights? Where does self worth come for for for you? Like, where and how do you find meaning now?
Simon Lamb [00:32:32]:
Horrible question.
James Glover [00:32:33]:
If I'm on it You're welcome. It's horrible. It's horrible
Simon Lamb [00:32:39]:
because I've got to admit I'm not the I'm not the bloody guru that I want to be. Yeah. I never will be. I'm inconsistent. I'm this is well, that's where that statement. I'm a messy man not mucking around. I I'm inconsistent at it. It takes discipline.
Simon Lamb [00:32:54]:
It's every single day the practices of some form of meditation, and I think we've exclusiveized whatever your word is, you know, over created this idea that meditation is like sitting in the corner of the room with your eyes closed in some position and listening to, you know, headspace or something like that, which, by the way, great things to do. Lying lying there and doing that is a fantastic thing. But there are walking meditations. There are open eye meditations. By the way, people find their flow state, some of them when they're running, some of them when they're moving, some of them in the gym, some of them when they're reading a book. And so the practices of finding yourself in that back balcony state, whatever version of it is that you do that is a mindfulness exercise, whether that be actual physical exercise or whether that be reading a book or listening to music or some people it's in the shower. You know?
James Glover [00:33:44]:
I was honestly, are you in my head? I was literally about to say, because it sounds a bit ridiculous, in the shower. Yeah. And that like, there is you know, when you describe flow as being kind of beyond yourself and feeling, you know, kind of like bigger than, I I can just be lost in and the I the the another, like, the pens that you can draw on the like, if I could get away with that in my house and it wouldn't turn into my children kind of graffiti ing like but I would be scribbling all the time because I just go into a place of freedom of thought. And and and yeah. And I love sport and I'm super active, but it's the shower.
Simon Lamb [00:34:24]:
There you go. Well, actually, the research, we worked with the NeuroLeadership Institute in North America. And when we were designing a big program, David Rock and his work, and we worked directly with them and translated some of their work into experiential work. And they sit they basically say the bathroom as a whole. So let's not really go into the conversation, but there are there are moments in the bathroom, full stop, where people are you know, that's why you get magazine racks. Let's let's let's go there. Let's why are there little magazine racks and reading books? And and a friend of mine had a set of pens and and a a writable on wall. So why don't you do that? I mean, what's the what's the fear? And just the notes and the little thoughts that are all over this wall.
Simon Lamb [00:35:08]:
All the taboo things in life, like, I think are hilarious because we don't talk about them, but we do lose ourselves on the loose sometimes staring out the window. I have many time have sat there way too long, way longer hiding away from the world, staring out the window.
James Glover [00:35:22]:
Then physiologically it's appropriate because you can't stand up afterwards.
Simon Lamb [00:35:27]:
Yeah. But to the to the point that you're trying I'm trying to make is, for me, it's the discipline. It's a discipline of knowing, both my energetic boundaries, sleep, food, mindfulness in whatever form it it comes. It doesn't take just intention. It takes attention constantly. That's the constant because we're inconsistent as human beings. I like many I I I read Eckhart Tolle, right, and I read that years ago, you know, this first book. And I was like, this state is impossible.
Simon Lamb [00:36:02]:
I'm lucky if but someone said to me, oh, yeah. Yeah, Simon. You know a lot about this. I said, no. I'm just your everyday human who's who's trying to kinda messily do this. I I don't believe myself to be able to get to a consistent state. Part of my human experience on this planet is about living with my human experience. It's like living with it, and and and how do I get on the balcony of it? Curiosity is my biggest helping hand and discipline.
Simon Lamb [00:36:28]:
Curiosity and discipline.
James Glover [00:36:30]:
So can you talk about this, like, concept of being on the balcony about it? Like, for those that maybe don't understand that kind of language or that that premise, what is the experience that you're describing when you use that that terminology?
Simon Lamb [00:36:43]:
I'm describing the fact that we spend a lot of our time in the moment, thinking we're in the moment, actually. We're in the busyness on the dance floor. We're in the dance floor. Ron Heifetz, I think, coined the phrase in his book around adaptive leadership, the balcony and the dance floor. And we're on the dance floor when we're in the moment. In the and and in those moments, we're hyper focused on the thing. Right? The problem is in when we're hyper focused on the thing, we're often in threat state. We're trying to drive something through.
Simon Lamb [00:37:09]:
We're trying to achieve that goal, hit that target, or whatever it is. And oftentimes in those states, we're in a threat state. We're fearful of losing our jobs or not being enough. And the balcony state is this ability to be able to step almost above yourself, take a breath, and ask yourself the question, what's really going on here? You know, how am I behaving? What am I believing to be true? Because if you go to, like, Daniel Kahneman's work on thinking fast and slow, and I know this is a like, a an older text, but it's it's the it's the original research. It's just being played out time and time again, where he's you've got system 1, system 2 thinking. Our brain is naturally, efficient. I almost said lazy. I edited my words.
Simon Lamb [00:37:55]:
It's not lazy. It's highly efficient. It's the most energy hungry part of our body. We need just need to look at the neuroscience behind it. Neurobiological studies that show our brain eats a lot of calories. So our body is built for survival, and therefore, it wants to use less. So therefore, automatic thinking and assumptions are the nature of human beings. And once you realize that I make assumptions and I invent stories and I fill the gaps in people's conversations, and I make meaning out of words that they haven't made.
Simon Lamb [00:38:27]:
Once you realize that, then you start to ask yourself questions. And being on the balcony is this capacity to be able to see yourself saying something, seeing yourself doing something, and asking from where am I responding? Where where am I motivated from here? Am I being motivated out of fear or drive, have to, should do, obligation, past experiences, past fears, or am I being motivated by something that's calling me forward by my sense of purpose? And so for me, when we talk about purpose, for me, it's, almost an operating system. Right? We're either operating out of fear at some degree or we're operating out of purpose for some degree, and the 2 are connected on a line. And so asking myself those questions while I'm doing it, it's a practice. And that's why meditation is a really good way into this because it's called splitting your attention. Focusing part of your attention on your breath means that you become detached from the emotions of your thinking if you practice it well. I once thought that being meditative was finding this white beautiful space where, you know, this beautiful harmony of bliss. Actually, I've learned that meditation is the ability to sit and be pay attention to my busy, busy brain and my busy, busy body and notice what's going on and just see it, not even try to fix it or touch it.
Simon Lamb [00:39:49]:
And so that's what I mean about the balcony. It's about your ability to split your attention between your dance floor sense of self and and this space that we can create. Victor Frankl said it. In between the stimulus and our response, there's a thing called time. That balcony moment is that space the ability to find that time. And I think the equation, I think, is flawed because it's not between the stimulus and the response. You can be on the balcony of yourself in any moment.
James Glover [00:40:19]:
But there there's something here about the kind of the relatedness of purpose itself to enable the splitting of attention. So the I guess the original question I was asking of you was where and how do you continue to connect to what's meaningful in your life right now and and find and continue to find and maintain your sense of self worth. And what I heard you describing was, it's it's a continual practice. It's not something that that, just happens for me, it has to be not just intentional, but then there was another word as well, attentional. And so there's something for me in does purpose enable that as well? Is it like a virtuous cycle, or is purpose the outcome of that, attentional practice? Like, where's the, like, yeah, where's the the kind of the the connection in those experiences for you?
Simon Lamb [00:41:20]:
Great. Well, I think I was talking in 2 frames there. 1 is purpose is a mindset being purposeful. And by the way, purposeful as well, if you take meaning from it, I can be very purposefully bad as well. But if we're taking the so language is a a hard one. So this finds it's hard to find the language for this exactly, but one, I think, is the mindset of purpose being in that state of connection. And when we're purposeful, I believe in the generative sense of being purposeful, We are others orientated. We are not just thinking about self.
Simon Lamb [00:41:58]:
We are thinking beyond ourselves into others' domains, and that's a mindset that is about, excuse me, that's a mindset that we we it need takes discipline to practice. So because in fear, we're self orientated. We're in protection. We're in, you know, we're in we're we're in that mode of it's diminishing. It's smaller. We're we're less collaborative. We're less perceptive. We're less creative.
Simon Lamb [00:42:26]:
It's it's shrinking. In the purpose state, we're more expansive. So there's a mindset, and Carol Dweck probably got closest to it with growth mindset. I mean, she frames it in that way. I have a different the reason why I call it kind of a play in purpose is because I think in that moment, you'll connect I think purpose is the connecting thing that I'm connecting. And when I say it, you say outcome. Yes. It is my sense of who I'm becoming, the emergent version of me, and the impact I wanna create in the world.
Simon Lamb [00:42:57]:
You know, we we asked we've asked those questions for years, haven't we, where what is your legacy? What do you wanna leave behind? I asked a guy a few weeks ago. He he said he said I said, what's your purpose in life? He said hard work, you know, was the number one value in his purpose. And I said, well, hard work sounds like an input. You know, it's in service of what? And that's the question I always get to ultimately. Service purpose is in service of something, not servant do. That's ego. In service of something. Richard Barrett put that as his Richard Barrett, if you wanna do some research, he did 7 levels of consciousness and service is level, 1.
Simon Lamb [00:43:35]:
Survive level 1 is survival. Level 7 is service. So it is also the it's the destination, but I don't believe in destinations. I don't believe life's a journey. I don't believe I I believe that it's it's a dance. It's, you know, there is no this this is a funny one as well. Someone once said to me, Simon, but what if there's no point in life? What if there is no point? And this was traumatic to this individual, like, deeply traumatic. He said, I don't see any point to my life.
Simon Lamb [00:44:07]:
And I said, well, what's the benefit of all of that? And he said, well, I can't see any. Well, what if there is no point? What do you get to do? To choose who I wanna be? Like, there you go. You get to choose. There's no point. You get to choose. And so I don't see it as a destination. There is no end destination. It's a way of being.
Simon Lamb [00:44:27]:
And you are right. There is an outcome, a legacy that you're looking for in all of that that's helpful to describe, and there's a way of being in all that that takes intention and attention. Actually, I think it's best described by that thing. Intention, where where what what is it you're trying to create in the world and attention, the discipline of practicing it in every moment because you are gonna get overcome by your ego. My fear of rejection from my parents' divorce, my fear of, not being good enough from my not being, you know, my ADHD diagnosis and not being very academic being very academic. I need to reframe that. I'm very academic. I'm highly good at maths, but I'm not I don't learn in the way they teach at schools.
Simon Lamb [00:45:13]:
That taught me that I wasn't good enough because I didn't fit in. You know? Neither of those things are true. My sense of purpose has helped me step beyond that and have a sense of self worth, and that's why every human is valuable. But every only human beings can create their value, I believe, at the moment they realize they have value. And that's the purpose work.
James Glover [00:45:39]:
And that like, there are there's like a one two punch here. There's like a Mike Tyson moment, timing around the the, the that that that that and I don't want to lose it now by getting slightly carried away that I'm going to start with what you just where you just finished, which is this idea of we can only how did you phrase it? We we can only create value in the moment that we realise we have value. Is that how you've framed it? Just Yeah. There's something there's something incredibly powerful about that, when it comes to this idea of kind of acknowledgement and permission. So hold that bit. And then there's the other bit there around well, the mechanism here is about intention and attention. The intention of who am I and who do I want to be and the attention of do I have the discipline to kind of come back to that because I know I'm going to fall off and falling off is okay. But I need to bring the attention back to where I want it to be, which is the need for the intention.
James Glover [00:46:38]:
And it feels to me like those are just 2 colossally useful insights for people to kind of hold and to wrestle with. Like, what do I do I do I acknowledge that I have value and therefore can create value in the world? Like, how liberating is that for people to to own and to to be comfortable with? And I say those I use those two words with a bit of trepidation because that's really difficult to do for a lot of people is to feel like I have value, to feel like I have worth. Yeah. Everybody
Simon Lamb [00:47:16]:
does. And that's because we are taught and coded in our society to not be arrogant, and we feel like we need to be humble. But we've misunderstood the the distinction between arrogance and confidence. There is a difference. There actually is if you take 2 continuums, we think we're on the same continuum. If I overplay confidence, I'll become arrogant. So the opposite of arrogance is humility. The opposite of confidence is shyness, withholding self.
Simon Lamb [00:47:47]:
You can be humble and confident, and that's the best form. It's I don't need to take the space. That's ego egoic, needing to take the space. I don't have to have a voice. I choose to lean in in confidence of the value that I know I bring. And and and and the question that's emerged for me here that I ask often of teams is what's the unique the unique value that only this group of people can create in the world? And that's the truth on the individual level. What's the unique value? You have a unique value. And if you're in denial that you do and if you're listening to this guy, no, I don't.
Simon Lamb [00:48:21]:
I don't have a unique value, then then there's some of the earlier work I talked about to do, which is to look back into your history and ask yourself, why is it I might believe that? Because we're taught to play small. And when we play small like this Newtonian physics, it's like the the powers of the world have power over me, and that's how we're brought up to conform to play. And I'm not saying, you know, let's go out there and and break all the rules, but I love breaking rules safely as it were. Like, I I don't drive a 120 miles an hour down the motorway because that's just stupid. Like, I've got a conscience. Right? But I'm talking about how dare I, you know, stay stay small in my little world? Why why don't I bring what I've got to the world because it's important? I see people growing from it. So why wouldn't I share it? And so, you know, with this Newtonian world of where we think all the big forces have power over us and I'm a small thing, actually, let's just invert it to a kind of, you know, a quantum physics world where the tiniest cell can have a massive influence like the butterfly effect, which I know, you know, at some levels isn't true. But, you know, a micro cellular thing, one person can make a massive difference in what they say and what they do.
James Glover [00:49:35]:
What what a provocation for for people listening to, to sit with. Like, do I and can I, see, feel, share the value, the unique contribution that I'm able to make in the world? And I totally agree with you. I believe that everybody has a unique contribution to make. The the the risk aversion, which I think comes back to humility and creates a level of anxiety is that when people talk about purpose or this unique contribution that somewhere along the line in a purpose conversation, it's all been blown out of proportion. And unless your your sense of purpose or the contribution you're gonna make is grandiose to some degree and is gonna, you know, save the planet and transform everything, then it's not worthwhile. And that's such a myth that needs destroying with a cruise missile or 20 because, actually, the the our uniqueness is exactly that. It's it's it's individual. And so as long as it matters to you, then that's all that matters.
Simon Lamb [00:50:37]:
I agree. And, well, I agree with 2 things there. 1, the question I would be asking people is, are you willing to own your new unique value? Are you willing to own your value? It's the willingness to own it. Are you really willing? Because if you're not, then then it's about investigating why. What what are the voices in your head that and and what what loyalty do they have to your parents, to your history, to your grandparents, to your life experiences? Your voices in your have have a loyalty to your past. They're trying to protect you, but they often don't. And you peel back the layers of those and say, what's the unique value I'm willing to own in the world? I think that's the that's the the first question because I think Marianne Williamson said it, didn't she? She said, we're we're more scared of the the light that we bring in the world than
James Glover [00:51:26]:
Yes.
Simon Lamb [00:51:26]:
The dark.
James Glover [00:51:27]:
Yeah. Our greatest fear. Yeah.
Simon Lamb [00:51:28]:
Our greatest fear, which is such a great poem. And I've completely forgotten the second point you made. But yeah.
James Glover [00:51:36]:
Well, obviously wasn't as important as the first point I was making. It was the anxiety around, the the the kind of the whole purpose or contribution has to be massive and and, like, globally transformational, and it doesn't really
Simon Lamb [00:51:50]:
Oh, we do this. We have this exercise where we get people to answer 3 simple questions. And then a third question, we get them to think about what they wanna create in the world. People feel tempted to go big and grandiose. And do you know what? To impress. That's that's not purpose. That's of the ego. Because if I'm trying to impress someone with how big I'm gonna be, how much impact I'm gonna have, Now it's hard enough to have an impact on a single human being.
Simon Lamb [00:52:17]:
And at the core of my purpose is to help my son in the world or support my son in the world, not taking on all the bloody patterns that I to be a great dad, to be a dad who's fun, but also effervescent, but also honest about what the world's gonna be like and and and and give him a platform to work from and not pass on all this shit that I picked up along the way. You know? How is he not gonna follow the pattern of eat all the food on your plate? How is he gonna learn the discipline and control? My my middle son, Harvey, he's learned that. He has a discipline. I'm like, that's the best thing I ever did. The next generation is got a discipline around eating that I don't have. I did my job. Done it. That was my purpose.
Simon Lamb [00:53:01]:
Done it.
James Glover [00:53:03]:
And but there's also there's also a tension in that too, Simon, right? Because you know for sure that they're gonna pick up their own shit that they've got to deal with. And and part of the part of the part of the, role responsibility is to enable them to see it and to manage it. Totally.
Simon Lamb [00:53:21]:
Which is why, you know, in I'll be honest and, you know, maybe Harvey will listen to this, but and and he's heard me say it in front of groups before. But, you know, I was in a therapy session with him. We we got called. My his mother, Lucy, and I got called into a therapy session. And in that therapy session, we sat in the room with our kinda heads bowed waiting to hear the news about how it what, You know, your son's gonna declare something. What? Is he a drug addict? Is he coming out? What what was he gonna be saying what's he gonna come out with? I don't know what he's gonna say. Have we been awful evil parents? Did we do something? Did something happen to him we don't know about? And he said, your divorce was too perfect. I never understood why you got divorced.
Simon Lamb [00:53:59]:
You just seemed so good, happy people together, and I've never had a chance to grieve because it was too perfect. And I was like, and I laughed. It was so inappropriate at the moment. I felt the laugh in my body, but that real laughter was acknowledgment and a relief of like like, myself of, like, god, my parents' divorce was so messy. I tried to do this so well, and in doing it, I've fucked him up. You can't win, so all you can do exactly to say is, how do I pass on the awareness to him, in order to be able to see it for himself and to be able to decode the meaning he made from what I did or what his mother and I did? He made meaning from it, and that he can edit that story. We all have the ability to edit our life history. What meaning do you make of your past and who you've become, And what meaning do you want to make? Do you choose to make you called to make in your life?
James Glover [00:55:02]:
I think that's a kind of a perv, perfect moment to just think about the future and what's to come, Simon. And how does how does your your your feeling experience of purpose guide you into the unknown of the future? What does that look like? How does it serve you to go forward? And I mean
Simon Lamb [00:55:22]:
oh, sorry. I had a bleep. I'll I'll, start again. That's that's exactly it. Sorry. Let me just quit Outlook. Sorry. It just pinged.
Simon Lamb [00:55:39]:
That's exactly it. I mean, if life's a dance, not a journey, doesn't really have a destination, and it has this path that you follow that you think you have choices on when you don't really have choices. You just follow the path. You know, when you've made choice a, you didn't make choice b, so it's gone. Like, there's just one path. And on this path, there are highs and lows and upsets and all of this kind of stuff. You know that they're gonna be highs and lows, because that's life. That's being human.
Simon Lamb [00:56:09]:
You know you're gonna make mistakes. You're gonna have the glorious times, the times of massive mess ups and and and and distraction, the times of grief and loss and pain and all of those things. And purpose is the thing that helps me when I connect to it, that voice beyond me that enables me to climb even sometimes wearily or reluctantly, onto that balcony. It's the energy. I mean, I believe purpose to be life force. I believe it to be the energy of life. Life on earth has a funny thing about it. This is why I noticed when I started doing the purpose work, why I'm curious about this work is most of the universe, if we believe the science around it, is like a like a massive firework going off over 300,000,000,000,000 years.
Simon Lamb [00:57:00]:
Right? So the firework goes off, and then the universe expands. This is a simplistic version, like, as I can do. And and the sparkles of the firework of the suns, right, of the stars. And around and and, you know, things are happening to those gases and rocks and matter and planets were created, and the the the universe continues to expand. I often ask people, how fast are you moving? Well, right now? And they go, I'm not I'm not moving. You can see I'm not moving. I'm like, well, you're moving at least 50 something 1000 miles an hour because the earth's going around the sun. Okay.
Simon Lamb [00:57:30]:
So how fast are we moving? 50,000 miles an hour? But, no, you're not. Because the sun is going around the galaxy about a 1000000 miles an hour. Okay. So how fast are you moving? About a 1000000. I'm like, well, the galaxy is going around something else we don't know. And how far is that going? I don't actually know. So when you talk about the voyage into the unknown is the truth if we admit it is that life is unknown. And however planned we think we are, just think back to your life.
Simon Lamb [00:57:54]:
Life's caught us out. Purpose is the ability to find energy in the moments when you feel like there's none, when everything's against you, when you've lost everything, the energy to get on the balcony and go, I know this will pass. Or even if I don't believe it will pass, it's something I need to go through, and it's the energy to keep moving. And when we look at the research, I can't remember who it was, Hill and Knowlton. Hill and Knowlton. That was a advertising agency. Hill and Hill and something. Toronto.
Simon Lamb [00:58:24]:
Hill and Toronto, North America. People with a sense of purpose, a longitudinal study showed, go to the doctors less, live life longer. It's life energy. It's life force.
James Glover [00:58:38]:
Amazing. And, Simon, I think this is the perfect place for us to pause our conversation here with just that notion of purpose being life force, being being an energy within us that enables us in times of wonder or times of hardship to be able to find and see a perspective and just continue to move. And, yeah, I love I love being in conversation with you and seeing how quickly you can go to depth. It's, it's amazing. And I, I know for sure that the people that listen to this podcast are just gonna have to get in the shower or go to the toilet, go go out for a walk just to sit and and really absorb some of the the richness that they've heard you share in these experiences. So thank you so much for taking the time to come and be with us and be in this conversation.
Simon Lamb [00:59:34]:
It's been fantastic. I feel like I need a cup of tea and a little sit somewhere quiet right now, put a towel over the bed. I've even blown my own mind.
James Glover [00:59:45]:
Well, here's the cups of tea, my friend. And, yeah. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care. Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitablesoul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.