Episode #20: Sammy Burt
Finding Compassion and Joy in the Chaos: Embracing Life’s Little Moments
Welcome back to The Excitable Soul Podcast, where we journey through the heart and soul of purpose and connection.
In today's episode, we're diving into a profoundly enriching conversation with Sammy Burt—an influential purpose practitioner, founder of two organisational performance consultancies, and a trustee of a modern slavery charity.
Sammy and I explore the transformative power of compassion, how understanding and embracing our emotions can lead to a more authentic and joyful life, and the ongoing nature of personal development.
We discuss the delicate balance between showing compassion and maintaining self-awareness, the importance of emotional language, and the role of deliberate joy in shaping our purpose. In this enlightening discussion, Sammy also shares her journey of writing her upcoming book, "What's a Grown Up Anyway?", and the importance of staying connected and conscious of our choices.
We delve into the impact of upbringing on resilience and optimism, and how small moments and everyday joy can lead us to our deeper purpose. Join us as we uncover the wisdom in life's experiences, challenge traditional notions of adulthood, and inspire you to embrace curiosity, and compassion. Let's get started!
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Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:44]:
So let's get going, shall we? Meet today's guest, Sami Burt. Sami is founder and co founder of 2 organizational performance consultancies, backpack and Farley. She's always looking to debunk unhelpful myths and demystify overcomplications in order to be able to invite people in. She's actually currently writing her book on one particular ill defined and unhelpful phrase, grown up. Keep your eyes peeled for what's grown up anyway when it's released. Sami is a speaker on leaderfulness, development, purpose, and all things grown upness. She's also a trustee of the UK's modern slavery charity and exploitation helpline, unseen. What's also really cool is she's a mother of 2 brilliant lads, partnered to her best friend, Jim, a massive advocate of kitchen parties, and generally quite an alright person to be around.
James Glover [00:01:42]:
I love this conversation. You will probably be able to tell, so enjoy. Alright, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to another episode of the Excitable Soul podcast. I want you all to welcome Sammy. Sammy, thank you so much for coming to be on the podcast with us today. How are you feeling?
Sammy Burt [00:01:57]:
I was really good until about 5 seconds ago. And now I'm starting to feel nervous, which is crazy. Right? But, no, I'm really good. Thank you. I love it. Lovely to be here.
James Glover [00:02:06]:
Jam. Well, I appreciate that, and appreciate the honesty. It's one of those things, isn't it? Like, we've just had a really wonderful conversation, and then all that's happened is I press the button and there's a red flashing light. Yeah. And both of us that if the heart rate monitors were on, they'd be going.
Sammy Burt [00:02:20]:
Exactly that. Exactly that. So I'll just breathe through it. Be all good.
James Glover [00:02:23]:
Yeah. We'll we'll breathe and fell down. And then I'll ask you some really big and deep questions.
Sammy Burt [00:02:27]:
That's my happy place. Big and deep questions.
James Glover [00:02:31]:
I guess where where I'd where I'd like to start really, Sammie, is you you are a purpose practitioner. Like, you live in this kind of space. It's something that, you are deeply connected to. And I guess before we kind of go into the the journey around, the experiences that have shaped who you are and kind of understanding what that means to you today and maybe the kind of looking into the future, I just wondered if you might just share with us what is it about purpose that's kind of captures your attention or kind of brought you in or is something that you want to bring to others?
Sammy Burt [00:03:05]:
Oh, I probably got a weird answer for that, I think. I think I think purpose is everything and nothing at the same time. Like, I think I think it's incredibly important, if it's important to you. I feel like people thrive with a sense of purpose. And I know people who have been hit over the head with what's your purpose. And then it's just become this really heavy sort of thing that they that they're supposed to discover about themselves. And actually, they've got they've got other work to do, or they've got other things to think about. They've got other things to learn about themselves.
Sammy Burt [00:03:43]:
So while I think having a a sense of purpose is incredibly useful, I think we can become a little evangelical. Is that the right word? Evangelical about it. And and and and then it's too heavy. And actually, you know, when if you've got a sense of your purpose, there's a lightness to it. It's really uplifting. It's really it it moves you out of the conversations you shouldn't be in. It stops you saying yes to the things you shouldn't do. So there's a lightening of the load if you've got a sense of purpose.
Sammy Burt [00:04:14]:
And and my worry is sometimes that we sort of, you know, we put it upon people, and then they're heavied by it because they're not quite sure what it is. So I have this, like, funny funny relationship back and forth,
James Glover [00:04:26]:
with it. That's such a beautiful way to to articulate it, that it's everything and nothing. Because because purpose is is paradoxical in nature, isn't it? It's it is always about kind of holding tensions and seeing the both and. So the fact that actually your immediate reaction is, well, it's a paradox. It's everything and nothing in equal measure. And and being able to articulate that tension in if you do have a deep connection, the impact can be. But equally, there just might be some other stuff that you need pay attention to in this moment. And that might not be the thing right now that brings lightness.
James Glover [00:05:04]:
In fact, actually feeling consumed or burdened by it can create the exact opposite experience, which is in no way useful at all.
Sammy Burt [00:05:13]:
And, of course, you know, I know people, and there's probably people throughout history who have who have lived every minute of their life against a purpose. But if you said to them, what's your purpose? The pressure of trying to articulate that would be too much. So I think I'm always mindful of of talking to people about what really matters to them, about what stirs them, about what's important to them, about what, you know, what in the world they're they stand for and what they stand against. As a way of getting into a conversation about purpose without, you know, really introducing the word purpose too early. Because it suddenly go, oh, okay. We're doing that right. I need to so 5 word sentence. Yeah.
Sammy Burt [00:05:52]:
Cool. I need a I need a 5 word sentence or whatever it might be. Actually, you know what? I I I don't have an issue if people can't articulate it in any way whatsoever if they've got a really great sense of what it what it means for them.
James Glover [00:06:05]:
God, I love this already. Like, you are I'm feeling lighter. And that's because I I I definitely have been evangelical about purpose for sure.
Sammy Burt [00:06:16]:
Oh, I have. Like yeah. How's that?
James Glover [00:06:18]:
And totally rigid in it being everything.
Sammy Burt [00:06:21]:
A purest practice practitioner.
James Glover [00:06:24]:
And, and and and, had to just pay attention to the universe slapping me around a little bit to go, there's more to this and, and you need to see it. And this this idea of actually being able to let go of a purpose statement. I think the the kind of evangelical nature for me came in seeing the power of people being able to to connect to that and be able to put put words to the feeling. And and it was almost like the lightning rod. It was like the energy of this kind of force of nature hitting the lightning rod and being channeled. And you, like, just see people emerge with this almost kind of like, an an an energy that hadn't been present before because they were able to connect to something more intentionally. But, actually, that wasn't the power at all. It wasn't the words that became the lightning rod.
James Glover [00:07:15]:
It was the journey to trying to understand where the meaning in the words were and actually sought the words. Who cares? Like, the purr purpose statement is, you know, useful and and has its place, but it's secondary to the the the experience of finding meaning and meaningfulness. Like, what really matters? And what's the what's the unique contribution that you're just trying to make to the things that you care about? And so you don't have to find this grand statement or this grand sense of purpose for your existence in the world. It's it's a much more organic human simple process of what what do you really care about? Do you know? And have you challenged yourself to, to really own the things that matter versus the things you think should matter?
Sammy Burt [00:08:06]:
Yes. Absolutely. Beautifully said. Because I think I think the risk is as well with with any kind of conversation around unearthing purpose. And we use the phrase unearthing purpose because it's the idea is that it's already in there. Right? We're kinda digging it up. But the I think sometimes, again, the weight of that conversation can be that it's all already in there. Well, actually, there might just be like a like an edge of it.
Sammy Burt [00:08:30]:
And then and then it's like an evolution. You know, it at that point, the only knowledge that you might have about your purpose is that it's vaguely in this territory. And, actually, I just need to go and play over there for a bit and see what further emerges from it. And I and I do think the purpose evolves and shifts. You know, I don't see how it can't really. There might be a a territory that it's in, and it might be a honing or an expanding or whatever. But it but it does shift. It's kind of this bit like a lava lamp.
Sammy Burt [00:08:57]:
I feel like through your life. It's kinda like moving and, going into different globules. And I don't know if that's a real word, but as it as it moves. And, of course, then you have so it can be quite flowy. And then you might have these big moments. You know, you have a child or you, split up in a relationship or you lose someone or, you know, whatever it is. And suddenly, it's a big jolt and you go, oh, okay. Something something I've just something's changed here.
Sammy Burt [00:09:21]:
Something else matters to me or I didn't realize that matters to me or everything just changed. So there's these lovely sort of moments of flow and then harsh cuts and changes and and shifts. And I think so much of the work around purpose is just being in tune with with what's going on in that space.
James Glover [00:09:39]:
Yeah. Massively. Love it. Wow. What a what a place. What a place for us to start. I mean, before even kind of just exploring your own journey around around purpose, just to kind of set that. And I think, I'm I'm enjoying kind of geeking out in this conversation a little bit with you in that I just feel total alignment.
James Glover [00:09:56]:
And I have this image now of the kind of the orangey glow of the lava of the lava lamp. And I love the idea of these kind of these globules that are shifting and changing. And maybe there's a moment where 2 massive bits kind of converge and because it has to be about evolution. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Mind blown. Brilliant.
James Glover [00:10:19]:
Morning. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So, yeah, let's let's focus in to to you a little and, you know, you use that language of unearthing. Now what's the journey of unearthing kind of meaning and purpose for you?
Sammy Burt [00:10:34]:
I'd love to have, like, you know, that like, the big impressive story of, like, this thing happened. And I and I was wracking my brain. It's like, do I have one of those moments? And I realized, actually, if you ask me this question yesterday, my answer would be different. And if you ask me tomorrow, it'll be different. Because I think what I came to was that, do you know the phrase death by a 1,000 paper cuts? Yeah. Well, I feel like I've sort of I've sort of found my way through life and into purpose and and in holding my purpose in this kind of this is so cheesy. Right? But it's like, purpose through a through a 1,000 hugs. Like, I feel like there's, like, just lots and lots of tiny little things that have just nudged me this way or nudged me that way or opened up this or opened up that rather than there being, like, this sort of grand moment.
Sammy Burt [00:11:21]:
And and so my journey, I think, I think when I started to have conversations about purpose, it all felt really obvious. And not the language. The language was was all really new to me. And I definitely tried to overthink it and create something that was, you know, much more impressive than where I eventually got to. But I I realized after sort of a lot of self reflection and good conversations with people that actually what really matters to me what really matters to me about life is joy. Right? It's really simple, and I just think we have a certain amount of time on this planet. And that's my belief. And and it should be as fun as possible for as many people as possible.
Sammy Burt [00:12:11]:
So joy isn't at the cost of, you know, your pain. Actually, it's it's a really connected system of in increasing joy. And within that, you know, there's some there's some jagged edges. Right? So so, I'm a trustee of a modern slavery charity. Now, you know, you could say there's there's a that is joyless, but actually it's a barrier to joy. So so my work there is how do we remove some of the barriers to people having more joy in their lives? And then the the majority of the work that I do around, organizations or leadership development with people, so much of that is about raising awareness. Because I feel like if you've got a better understanding of yourself and the systems you're in, you'll notice that you've got more choices than you thought you did. And and then you can choose joy more often.
Sammy Burt [00:13:03]:
And then that's infectious, right, as well, you know, being around joyful people. And and I realized that I I think I I kind of caught that from my mum and dad. I think we're a fairly simple family, if you like. And and having simple fun was was you know, that was really important to us, whatever that might be. My dad won't go through a checkout at a supermarket without making, like, such a dad joke to whoever's, like, back you know, you can't move around in the world without these sort of interruptions of dad jokes, or or whatever it might be. And and and my mom, I think, like, when when we used to try and tidy up as kids, her and we mock her for it now. But the thing she would always say is, let's make a game of it. That was, like, her phrase.
Sammy Burt [00:13:52]:
Let's make a game of it. And so it felt like they were always looking for opportunities just to have a little bit more fun.
James Glover [00:13:58]:
So there are 2 things that are immediately kind of, immediately, I'm curious about. So one is the kind of the outcome and the the significance of joy and the framing of that for you now and and how you access it, and especially in the roles that you're playing in your life, like, you know, as a as a trustee in a modern slavery, for a modern slavery organization. But the the the the death by a 1000 cuts flipped to life by a 1000 hugs. Like, so so like, love that. And, I want you just to kinda stay in that space for a for a little bit, if you don't mind. Because and the reason for that, I think, Sammy, is, you know, we were where we just started, the the difference between when people feel a sense of lightness because they're connected to purpose versus feeling the burden and the anxiety of not knowing. It often we I you know, I certainly hear it from people. It feels like if I don't have something that is grand and earth shattering, it is not enough.
James Glover [00:14:58]:
And, actually, what you're describing there is it's a, and I think you used the word there. It's about simplicity and
Sammy Burt [00:15:07]:
Disincremental. And
James Glover [00:15:08]:
yeah. I love that. And so I'm wondering if there's a playfulness that comes from dad jokes and and tidying games like Mary Poppins at Home.
Sammy Burt [00:15:17]:
Yes. What
James Glover [00:15:18]:
are what are the other what are the other, experiences that you feel have kind of aggregated up in that way?
Sammy Burt [00:15:25]:
I mean, I'm very competitive. So so that that comes in a lot. I think I just look for it everywhere. I mean, my my partner calls me a happy idiot. Because I because I generally will walk into, like, quite a stressful situation or something, and I'll be like, hey. Here's the silver lining. And it's not I think he thinks it's it's it's kind of well, he obviously knows it's not, but that it's a bit put on. And it's not.
Sammy Burt [00:15:50]:
I just tend to go, oh, wow. Well, that's the thing that happened. So that means, you know, oh my goodness. Our car's just blown up so we can get a new one. You know, I look for the I look for the the next the good thing in it. I look for we were talking just before we started recording about a client receiving an email from someone internally that was quite heavy and weighty. And my immediate reaction to that is, isn't that amazing that they can speak, that they can share their concerns with you? Whereas I think a lot of people that I come into contact with would read the content of a of an email. So I might be talking in circles a little bit.
Sammy Burt [00:16:27]:
But, read a content of a negative email and and focus on the negativity in the email as opposed to what it took for the individual to be able to share that with someone. So I I I think I have a a bias towards positivity is fairly inbuilt. And and going back to kind of my mom and dad, I think there's an indestructibility that I've inherited, I think, from my mom. And I say it about 10 times a day. Like, what's the worst that could happen? Okay? And and and that's not I don't mean that in a flippant way. It's a genuine belief. Like, most things in our lives really aren't gonna have that terrible an impact if we try them. So we may as well try them.
Sammy Burt [00:17:09]:
And I think I I definitely inherited that sense of nothing's gonna knock me over really badly from my mom who was just always out trying things, and kind of parked her ego and and would just be out. I mean, she would she was starting businesses every other week, like, with a with a postcard in the post office window. You know, now she's starting a business where, you can pay 50p p a day, and she'll go and move your car around on your driveway while you're on holiday to fool the burglars, you know, or turning your lights on and off or yeah. Yeah. They were way ahead of their time. They were renting baby equipment, when I in the eighties. So because so you have to buy you know? And none of these things, like, turned into big big businesses. But I think she just she she and they really instilled in me a sense of what's the worst that can happen.
Sammy Burt [00:18:01]:
We might have a bit of fun doing this. And if it doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't really matter. It wasn't anywhere a minute ago. Yeah. So I think what that's allowed me to do in this life 5 1,000 hugs, I go toward things. I go toward everything, because I don't feel like the risk is very often that high. You know, if I go towards someone and and introduce myself and and they turn around and walk away from me, well, okay. Cool.
Sammy Burt [00:18:32]:
They're they're lost. I'm awesome. They should have got to know me. Right? I don't mean that quite how that sounds, but I just
James Glover [00:18:38]:
Well, you should because you sound awesome.
Sammy Burt [00:18:41]:
But I I I genuinely just think going towards things is better than going away from them. So so that's that's what's given me the confidence to try stuff. My my career has been really winding because it's been led by the next shiny thing that I feel like I'm interested in. And then it's led to this thing that that's massive, and I love it. But I dropped out of college. Didn't go to university. You know, I really wanted to follow what was emerging in front of me and just keep taking risks.
James Glover [00:19:09]:
And so there's something like, the train of thought here the first train of thought for me was I can immediately resonate to the, influence of moms.
Sammy Burt [00:19:19]:
Yes. Oh, yeah. I listened to yours and your sisters.
James Glover [00:19:21]:
Deep on deep on on deep optimism and, you know, and kind of possibility. And it Mhmm. I think it it played out differently in different experiences, but the the kind of the outcome was the same, which is, forever, you know, speak to speak to my bosses. They're forever and all have always been. Can we have some pragmatic reality to go with that optimism, please? And I and I I think I've learned the muscle of being able to bring a bit of that in. But if I'm honest with you, the older I get, the more I'm rejecting it. Because I'm like, that's okay. You You got a shitload of people.
James Glover [00:19:56]:
They're all about the pragmatic reality. If you want some of that, go speak to them. If you want unbridled optimism about what may be possible, whether or not my feet are firmly on the ground or not, hello, I'm your guy. That's the conversation I'm in for. But this idea of seeing a role model that was willing to find the good in situations. And, and, like, I'm genuinely sat here thinking about all these moments in my life where I bring something to my mom who is the first person, that I always looked to for kind of reassurance. And her being able to find either the positive or the opportunity in any situation immediately flicks your perspective, doesn't it? We're not we're not browbeaten. We're not the victim.
James Glover [00:20:41]:
We're not succumbing. It's a it's a magical type of resilience because it's not, I've gotta persevere with this difficulty. It's like, what freaking difficulty? We're going for that thing over there. How cool is that? Yeah. Okay. And you get into hardship anyway. And you kind of it's on reflection. You were like, wow.
James Glover [00:20:58]:
That was actually really tough. But, hey, look. Here we are. Let's go again.
Sammy Burt [00:21:01]:
That's it. I mean, I love it at the moment. Because I'll go back to my back to my folks and talk about work because it's, like, my favorite thing. And, and, my mom will sit there and and nod, and then she says me, I've got no idea what you're talking about, but I love hearing it. And so she's just she's she's not like you know, almost at the opposite to the rest of the world. She's not worried about the content of what it is that I'm saying. She's just enjoying how much joy I'm getting from it and how fulfilled I I appear to be from it. And I think that's that's something also that's quite infectious.
Sammy Burt [00:21:36]:
I I like, you know, when people say, like, what's your favorite kind of musical ever? And I've been that that that guy. There's always, like, I've got really eclectic tastes, and, which is such a non answer. And I've realized actually it's a real answer because, actually, I love any kind of music where I'm around other people that love it. So I would never get in my car and put on house music. Right? That's sitting on my own. That's not what I'm gonna do. But I went to Berlin for 3 days with some DJ Mates for someone's 30th, and we we were in house clubs the whole time. And I loved it.
Sammy Burt [00:22:10]:
And none of that is about the music. Right? I'm just around people who are bouncing off the walls for a lot of different reasons. But most mostly mostly the music. And and they are so tuned into what's good about it and what they love about it and what's happening for them that I'm just infected by that. And and that like, the flip of that my first ever gig was Slipknot. Right? And, again, I'm never gonna get in the car and listen to Slipknot on my own. But I remember this this kind of energy that I was absorbing from the people around me who were so obsessed by it. And so I think that's I think I think what I feel like I'm been very lucky with is being able to be infected by other people's joy.
Sammy Burt [00:22:56]:
It doesn't matter what it is. I can sit and listen to someone who is obsessed with, you know, engineering the tiniest little drill bit for a dental drill. This is a specific thing. But but their obsession with why the micrometer of that is so important becomes important to me. And I feel very lucky to be able to do that because I I rarely have to look for what's important to me because I can absorb what's important to other people.
James Glover [00:23:21]:
And so well, the I think the, I think, again, it's a beautiful paradox. Right? In that, actually, the thing that is meaningful to you is seeing the meaning in in what's meaningful to other people. Like, so so to to your mom's point, doesn't matter about the context and the content. It's how do you feel about it because that's then how I feel about it and finding that connection. And interestingly, you know, before we before we started to record, we were talking about the opposite as well. So you just use that word to to be infected with other people's joy. Yes. There is also the kind of, like, the, the antibiotic Yes.
James Glover [00:23:58]:
Or the or the or the white blood cell, the immune response. Right? The immune response required to the opposite, which is when people aren't bringing joy or don't see joy or, because there are there are, you know, abundance of people out there who aren't seeing the world through that same lens. And so to not be infected by that, but to be able to create the right kind of immune response to still be able to to make a connection is then a whole different other experience. Right?
Sammy Burt [00:24:28]:
It is. It is. And I think, my my antibiotic or my antidote for that is compassion. And I'm really mindful that I could be I I might be making myself sound like this perfect person. I I I I I have I have no qualms about, you know, I'm full of failings. And and I have a few things that I focus on, and and I do feel like compassion is something that, is my antihistamine to that allergic reaction. Actually, if I'm sat in front of someone who is who is desperately negative or aggressive or, you know, know, whatever's going on for them, I I tend to look for my own compassion toward that person. Know, if someone's attacking me, I my defense mechanism is to wonder what's going on for them that they feel they need to speak to me like that or that they need to behave toward me like that.
Sammy Burt [00:25:18]:
And that's an internal defense mechanism. And sometimes then I'll use that as my as my weapon too and go toward them. You know? Hold on. What what is what's going on for you that you feel you need to speak to me like this? That's actually incredibly powerful To come towards someone with compassion when they're not expecting it is very unsettling for them. And and sometimes, you know, they they bat you away. But more often than not, it stops them in their tracks. And they wonder, first of all, why you give a shit. And then they wonder why they are being the way that they are.
Sammy Burt [00:25:56]:
So I find compassion to be a much more useful, shield and weapon than than matching them in aggression or negativity or or anything like that. I just it doesn't feel like a useful way to spend time.
James Glover [00:26:13]:
Yeah. And I it's interesting this. Again, the kind of the concept of going towards kind of emerges, here as almost like a a kind of thread of meaningfulness. And, I I my my feeling here I'm I'm I sat here going, wow. Like, I I I really am on a journey continually to try and understand my reaction in any given circumstances and just try and do better sometimes next time. Because sometimes I get it right and sometimes I don't.
Sammy Burt [00:26:45]:
Yeah. As we all are. Right?
James Glover [00:26:46]:
But I I definitely, definitely don't immediately reach for compassion when I probably should. Like, it takes me takes me a bit of time to to kinda get to compassion from a from an immediate place of of, I guess, 2 things. 1, they're both threat responses, both defensive responses of, how are they right and I'm wrong in this situation? Which is kind of the first first first one. Oh, like, I may I may have pressed the wrong button there. What did what did I do wrong in that situation? Maybe totally nothing. And, and the other one being, how dare you? And it's it tends to be a mixture of those two things immediately for me that kinda comes out. I'm like, alright. With a healthy mix of being playful in the moment to try and minimize the level of negative energy that's being experienced.
Sammy Burt [00:27:48]:
Yeah.
James Glover [00:27:48]:
So there's this total cauldron of internal experience. And actually, the way that you just described it there in terms of going, well, actually, what compassion does immediately is it makes me put myself in their shoes and ask what's going on and, at the same time, probably enables me to engage with them in a way that immediately puts the agenda back on them thinking about why they've shown up in this way.
Sammy Burt [00:28:13]:
Yeah. I'm
James Glover [00:28:13]:
like, that's the one, 2, but that's like an of of of, like, reaction to any kind of threat. Like, it's you know, you've Mike Tyson that individual in a so I guess I'm just sharing openly the reaction to to that. And and, my curiosity, my interest is, like, how do you do that?
Sammy Burt [00:28:35]:
Well, so so I do wanna just share a shadow side to that, I guess, because I think that's really important. Back to polarities and tensions. Right? So, so I see I've been seeing a therapist for the last couple of years in order to understand myself better for this work. It turns out there's loads of other stuff that I should have known about myself. But this this this weapon of compassion that I've been very proud of, doesn't always serve me quite so well. So so the shadow side of this is so the the brilliant thing is, right, I'm driving along the road. Someone cuts me up. Now I've got a I could carry 3 hours of bit of annoyance and frustration that someone's cut me up on the road.
Sammy Burt [00:29:15]:
Or in that moment, I could go, oh my goodness. I hope wherever it is they're going, they need to get to quickly isn't a bad place. You know? I hope they're not heading to the hospital to visit someone on the death of the way. And then it's gone. I'm done. Right? My my I don't need to carry any anger towards them any longer. It's it's lifted from me. I've I've reached out to them emotionally, and I'm done with that situation.
Sammy Burt [00:29:34]:
That's that's a really positive version of that. The shadow side is someone genuinely is awful towards me, and I don't allow myself to feel angry or feel sorry for myself. So that's the shadow there that I'm I'm consciously working on at the moment is, occasionally, I'm allowed to feel for me. Because my compassion goes out to defend myself, I don't keep very much for myself. And therefore, you know, in some way, I'm probably bottling some stuff up. So there's there's a real watch out. There's a real watch out in doing that. But I still maintain my therapist might feel differently.
Sammy Burt [00:30:15]:
I still maintain that 99% of the time, it's incredibly useful and for for both parties. I think I there's there's a number of things, I suppose, I believe about the world, and I and I want people to feel, even for a split second, like someone gives a shit about them. And so if you come towards me with real anger and aggression and frustration, I want you to know that I've put the content of that to one side, and I don't want you to feel like that anymore. That's what's important here is you no longer feel that anger not solving the problem that you think you're coming to me with. It's so so I and how you do it, I don't know. I think you practice. Right? It's like any muscle. You just try and notice the moments when when you go inward.
Sammy Burt [00:31:04]:
So your thinking, your first step is is your mind has all gone inward. Right? What have I done to upset you and how dare you speak to me like that? So you've gone inward. I think it's really useful to notice, like, what's the language in your mind? So if you hear yourself thinking, what have I done? Then that might be the moment that you go, oh, I've heard that phrase. I'm gonna purposely go out now and wonder. This probably isn't about me in the slightest. How are you in this? So I think I think there's some real, you know, like, deliberate practice that you can do around trying to be more compassionate. And start with the easy stuff. Right? Don't try and start with some massive forgiving someone you fell out with 25 years ago stuff.
Sammy Burt [00:31:47]:
You know? Or maybe do. But I think I think practicing on the little things, and and noticing when what's bubbling up for you isn't really the thing that's bubbling up for you.
James Glover [00:31:59]:
Yeah. And I I, a previous guest on the podcast shared something, which for me, in in exactly the same way that you're describing here, just became really quite profound. And he just said, in those moments, the question I ask myself is, is the choice I'm making taking me closer to the man that I want to be or not?
Sammy Burt [00:32:21]:
Oh, I love that.
James Glover [00:32:23]:
I kinda just sat back and went, that's the question, isn't it? That's what well, I say, yeah, that's the question, isn't it? That is the question for me because I have a clear idea of who I want to be in the world and how I want to be. For me to ask myself that question is the best way to get me to to to create that momentary pause of reflection and influence the choice that I'm making. Because it immediately made me go, ah, well, in this situation, am I making it about me, or am I, or or am I seeing what actually needs to be seen? Can I just ask a different question, which is, how am I gonna feel about this in 20 minutes? How am I gonna feel about this in in in 6, 12 months' time. Yeah. So so what choice do you wanna make that's gonna take you closer to the man that you want to be?
Sammy Burt [00:33:14]:
I love that. And I love that there there could be then from the back of this conversation at the second question. You know, we're focusing very much on, you know, if there was a negative person in front of us, but, of course, this is the world around us. But if there was a second question, so is the choice I'm about to make gonna take me closer to the man that I want to be? And is the actions that I'm seeing in the person in front of me who they really are and who they wanna be? Because I think I I think that then opens up that same question to say, well, I doubt it. You know, most people don't wanna be an asshole. So how can I support this person not to be an asshole in this moment? You know, it's it's really simp this is back the word joy. Right? I love that it's only 3 letters. I love the simplicity when you really distill and boil stuff down.
Sammy Burt [00:34:03]:
I don't wanna be a dick. You probably don't wanna be a dick. Should we talk about why this is feeling like a dickish conversation or whatever? You know, sorry. My language is not great. But I think getting into the simplicity of it is is makes it so much more accessible. Because we could we could theorize and naval gaze and and talk about all of the, you know, the different layers for this stuff. And and sometimes I think it's really useful to just have that question as you said. Does this take me closer to the man I wanna be? Is the person in front of me being at their best right now or being who they wanna be?
James Glover [00:34:34]:
Yeah. And and, again, if we if we just kind of put our shoes, self in the shoes of those that are listening and kind of just underline the simplicity, there there feels to me like there are 3 things that we're saying. The first thing here is, that the sense the whole connection to sense of purpose can be a kind of an anchor around all of these things. Like, what is truly meaningful to you in any given moment? So when you find yourself reacting, tornado is whooping around
Sammy Burt [00:35:03]:
Yeah.
James Glover [00:35:03]:
What are you clinging to? Then there's there's a couple of other pieces here, which is you will you building a level of awareness to your reaction in the moment is really important. And that doesn't have to be with any level of judgment. Just understand what the reaction that you're having in the moment is, and notice that there is good and not so good in any of those reactions. Yeah. And that is okay. No no beating with sticks here. No. And the third element being, what's the one question that you want to hold onto that enables you to make choice, make decision, or just simply see more options than you would have done before.
Sammy Burt [00:35:47]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for summarizing that because, I felt like I was waffling a little bit there. But it sounds like it was quite clever when you say it back.
James Glover [00:35:54]:
Well, I mean, it's freaking genius. And, I love that the language is colorful. If Ronnie Brown can swear all the time too.
Sammy Burt [00:36:01]:
Oh, yeah.
James Glover [00:36:01]:
Totally. She's she's she's led the way, and, it's okay. Millions of people listen to her podcast, and she swears like a Trisha.
Sammy Burt [00:36:08]:
So I often I often drop an f bomb in quite early in in workshops just to make everyone realize I'm not a teacher.
James Glover [00:36:15]:
So when
Sammy Burt [00:36:16]:
I'm when I'm sort of stood there in front of, you know, 10 or 20 grown ups, adults, taking the register. And I can see that they're all sort of wondering, you know, how teacher y this is gonna be. I do think that dropping an f bomb quite quickly is is useful. Everyone still goes, oh, thank goodness.
James Glover [00:36:36]:
Look, Sami, I'm I'm, you know, the kind of the the the the kind of the structure, the process that we try to bring to to this podcast is a kind of an exploration of the moments that have shaped you and brought meaning, and then moving into the kind of the present day and the sense making. And then the kind of the third element is almost looking forwards into the future. And I feel like we just really organically move moved through the first through the first two, almost totally accidentally, but really beautifully. And I I'm interested now in in how purpose is shaping the future for you? What are the things that you are really excited about right now that are being informed by your sense of purpose and and and you're hopefully kind of willing into existence? Or where are the leap of faiths where there are just some big open gaps and kind of total terror that you're moving towards because purpose is guiding you?
Sammy Burt [00:37:34]:
Love that question. I think what do I think? What do I feel? I I for a long time, I thought that my value was around being a translator. I thought I noticed that I was often in conversations where where I was helping people understand something. And not I don't mean that in a patronizing way, but more that I think through my upbringing, I I I understand a wide variety of people. I I went to different types of schools. I spent some time in a massive comp. I went to a small private school. I I moved around a lot, a bit like my music tastes.
Sammy Burt [00:38:14]:
And, and so I feel like I can a skill of mine is to to be able to help people access stuff without dumbing it down. And so at the moment, that is sort of manifesting against this this this purpose of mine around joy, increasing access to joy, if you like, getting more joy in the world, is to to busting some really unhelpful myths or or redefining words that we throw around. So so it drives me absolutely mad that, I saw this thing the other day. So in Scots, the Scots language, there is something like 450 different words for snow. Right? Because because it's that important historically to agriculture and to life that we need to be able to describe very specific things about snow. And then we have this word professional that means nothing and is used 20 times a day as a stick to beat people with. You know, be professional. I've seen it as as a value named in organisations, professionalism.
Sammy Burt [00:39:22]:
Like, what does that even mean? I mean, when you really get down to it, it just means getting paid. Right? So so so why do we then ask it off people? Be professional. And I feel the same similar around leadership. So I've just started to sort of redefine leadership. Actually, let's talk about being leader full, in the same way that we think about being, you know, you are delightful. I can't put my finger on it, what it is about you, but you are delightful, beautiful. You know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's it's a complex mix of qualities and elements and experiences that create someone who who when we're near them, we believe them to be a leader as opposed to this suit that we put on, which is leadership or fellowship or whatever.
Sammy Burt [00:40:08]:
It's a thing. So I'm I'm trying to invite people to question and to find their own definitions of some of these things. And my most recent one, I'm gonna kinda do a plug. So I'm I'm writing a book. And and, it's it's trying to define what it is to be a grown up, because I realized that so many people are just walking around pretending to be their stereotype or character of what it is to be a grown up cause we're all told that we should be. You know, you're gonna grow up or wet you know, be a grown up. Grow up. It's it's weaponized in the way that it's used.
Sammy Burt [00:40:50]:
And and as I start I start talking to people about it and realizing that more and more people just, they would confess to me kinda through gritted teeth or, like like, whispers. No. I don't I don't feel like a grown up either. And this would be people of in their forties, people in their eighties. Everyone was set telling me how they didn't really feel like 1. And it really made me wonder, so what is 1? And then I set off on this on this piece of research to try and really understand what it is to be a grown up. And, and what's beautiful about where I've got to in and what's emerged, not in terms of I haven't done it. What's emerged in all of the research that's come out is that really at the crux of it, when we're around someone we we would feel like is a grown up, they are curious.
Sammy Burt [00:41:41]:
They are compassionate. They have faith in themselves and other people around them. They're in connection with themselves. They're in connection with with the world around them. It a micro level and a macro level. Is that the right way around? Anyway, and and what's amazing about that, right, is then I've got a 2 year old and a 5 year old. They have those same qualities. You know, my 2 year old is incredibly curious and compassionate.
Sammy Burt [00:42:08]:
You know, if he hits his brother over the head, he wants to give him a hug after. And and he's him
James Glover [00:42:15]:
so you can give him a hug.
Sammy Burt [00:42:17]:
Exactly. He's curious.
James Glover [00:42:19]:
Will this hurt?
Sammy Burt [00:42:20]:
Will this hurt? Yeah. But the but but compassion and curiosity and confidence in yourself and and a desire to be in relationship with others is something we see small children do really easily. And And then for whatever reason, we've trained ourselves out of it. And we've trained ourselves that actually being a grown up is to always have the answers and to, you know, not really show our feelings. I mean, maybe this is just British grown ups. But, you know, there's there's a there's a mask that we should put on if we are to be a grown up. And and so what's lovely about where I've got to with this is it's an it's an unearthing again. Nothing in this in the result of my research says that anyone needs to learn anything new.
Sammy Burt [00:43:08]:
We just need to unlearn some stuff and step toward people. And and I suppose I I genuinely have a belief that if everyone was just a tiny little bit more curious or a tiny little bit more compassionate, we could make some really massive shifts. And so all of that is is driven by my desire for joy because I think people would be happier if they were wearing less of a mask or letting it taking it off a little bit more often. So it feels so simplistic because we've gone through we've gone from simple into complex and back to simple. And we can stay there, and we can just sort of play around in in that space. And I really genuinely hope, like, when I'm on the tube this is so sad. I was on the Elizabeth line yesterday, and someone was reading a book. And I was like, oh, maybe one day, I'm gonna get on the tube, and someone's gonna be reading my book.
Sammy Burt [00:44:04]:
And I'm gonna see them exhale. You know? I'm gonna see a moment where someone feels released from this weird tether to what it is we think we should be in the world and realize that they can actually just be themselves. And that that's awesome.
James Glover [00:44:20]:
So, right, we've got 2 things that we plug into here, immediately. Like, I want to I want to stay with that. So I wanna come back to that, which is your experiences around writing the book. So there's something about that. But I also want to talk about where you started there, which was about the content and the curiosity and the journey of writing the book. Mhmm. Because as you were talking there about this concept of being a grown up, what what what felt I I I felt that, you know, when you were kind of going simple, complex, simple, I felt this kind of, there's a there's an emotional there's an emotional connection, then there's this over intellectualization.
Sammy Burt [00:45:05]:
Yes. Yeah.
James Glover [00:45:06]:
And then there's this emotional connection. There's almost just coming back to the real data, come back to the real information that you need to pay attention to because this idea of of observing somebody that you think is grown up in the way that you're describing it, obviously, because I don't know the the kind of the research, But just what I'm hearing from you is this there's a feeling that is generated. This person is connected. This person is confident. Like, we're feeling a whole bunch of things because of what we're witnessing. Yeah. So, actually,
Sammy Burt [00:45:40]:
I feel safe around this person. They are a grown up.
James Glover [00:45:43]:
Well yeah. And the exact and then so remove all that because we over intellectualize what a grown up is supposed to be. And to your point, it's been weaponized. Would you just grow up and stop behaving like such a child? And which is basically just an adult not owning their own shit and being annoyed by a whole bunch of other things and trying to control the behavior of of a of a of another human being in a way that's probably not justified in that particular moment. That might be an overgeneralization, but often we see corrective behaviors come from parents to children just purely because they're frustrated, irritate irritated, not by the child themself, but just the lack of accountability and ownership over the way they're showing up in any given moment is being expressed.
Sammy Burt [00:46:21]:
Well and copy and paste everything you just said, but remove actual parent and child and go into an organization where you have parent child relationships and exactly the same thing as being demanded of people. Grow up. Be professional. Same same weapon.
James Glover [00:46:36]:
Don't bring me problems. Don't make too much noise. Just Yeah. Get on.
Sammy Burt [00:46:39]:
Yeah. This idea of, oh, don't. There's a whole another podcast in why I'm angry about come to me with solutions, but, we'll do that another day.
James Glover [00:46:48]:
Well, you can 100% come back. But there's this like, this sense of the kind of the organic nature of emotional connection to an over intellectualization to then re, like, letting go of unlearning the over intellectualization and coming back into the kind of the emotional connection, which just felt really wonderful. And and I'm people who listen will know that I'm a total fanboy of Lisa Philbin Barrett and her her research around the theory of constructed emotion. And to the point that you're making, like, language is critical because language is part of the way in which we make sense of the emotions that we have and we're experiencing. And the evidence tells us that most adults use 6 to 8 words to describe their entire emotional experience, which is like watching a black and white TV when you could have high def, you know, Dolby surround sound. And, without being able to challenge some of these these, constructs or not challenge them, create a greater level of granularity around what is actually happening Yeah. You're never you're never in the real experience.
Sammy Burt [00:47:56]:
No. And no. Absolutely. And so I think I do 2 things to try and combat that. 1 is, I invent new words, accidentally a lot of the time. So leaderful, is is is sort of me trying to go. I need something here that's uncomfortable enough that people lean in and pay attention. So so that's that's working quite well.
Sammy Burt [00:48:17]:
Often, I I talk about developing rather than development. Now, obviously, developing is a word. But so often we talk about development like it's a thing to do. And actually, the ing says this is continuous. Right? And and, well, one of my dad's favorites was, was swallowable. So, you know, you have soluble tablets. So I just assumed when I was a kid that the ones that you swallow were swallowable. And I think I just moved through, like like well, even before we started recording, I was talking about something being contagion, and you're like infected.
Sammy Burt [00:48:49]:
Yeah. That's that's the right word. But I think what's beautiful about language is that you can play with it. Right? You don't have to be strict to it. So the more you know of it, the the better you can, forget, articulate your feelings, the better you can notice your feelings. And then you might articulate them. So, you know, how there must be 400 different words for happy, surely, if there's 400 words for snow. So why do we use happy?
James Glover [00:49:15]:
And kids, again, are brilliant at that if you give them the space to. My my daughter did a, a dance performance last year, and, the the the school that she goes to is wonderful. It's adults who want to dance right the way through to to toddlers who want to dance. And everybody performs in the show. Right? Everybody. There's, like, multiple different dances. Everybody has their opportunity. And it's in a big theater.
James Glover [00:49:40]:
So it's a small small small dance company, big theater, and everybody or, like, all the families family members come. It's it's wonderful. Real wonderful experience. And it was also the latest, like, she's ever been up. When I was going to pick her up at the end, it's like, you know, half 9, 10 o'clock, and I'm driving her home.
Sammy Burt [00:49:56]:
Like midnight feast.
James Glover [00:49:58]:
And and I I remember driving her down the the evening of or the afternoon before the first appointment, and I said, so how are you feeling? And she went, I'm scappy, daddy. I went, oh, what's that? And she went, well, I'm scared and I'm happy, so I'm scappy.
Sammy Burt [00:50:12]:
Oh, I love that.
James Glover [00:50:15]:
Yeah. Like, how perfect is that to describe the actual experience? She wasn't experiencing one thing. She's experiencing multiple things. Then she just went, how do I put all that together? It's this. And I was like, yeah. I I totally understand now. She's probably describing some sense of anticipation, might be a different word, but actually hers is way better. Yeah.
James Glover [00:50:34]:
It gets to the gets to the point.
Sammy Burt [00:50:37]:
I love that. The one that my son came out with was, I think he stole it vaguely off Bluey, but he kinda reworked it, which was trificalt, which is when something is terrific and difficult. And I was like, I love that. And I think this is it. This is another thing about growing up. Right? We're not supposed to play with these things anymore. That that's a childlike thing to do. But why not? If I if I need a new way to describe the way that I'm feeling right now, Why should I be limited by by the words that I know? You know, I've got choices there.
Sammy Burt [00:51:08]:
I could go to the emotional thesaurus, which is an amazing book, or I could just make something up.
James Glover [00:51:14]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Sammy Burt [00:51:15]:
So yeah. Yeah.
James Glover [00:51:16]:
And I guess there's another podcast in this for us around why people don't pay attention to emotion and they dismiss it, which is yeah. Like, you want you wanna get me on a you wanna get me on my high horse, then that is the first place to go. But let's let's just, let's just pivot back to the kind of the experience of writing the book and what that's bringing out to you because that feels like leap of faith territory. That feels like
Sammy Burt [00:51:36]:
Oh my goodness.
James Glover [00:51:37]:
Kind of purpose in action. It kind of taking you to a place. So, you know, what are some of the the feels that you've been feeling in the process of of trying to kind of bring this book to life? And talk to me, you know, this idea of being on the tube and seeing somebody exhale because they feel lighter was just a really wonderful expression of your kind of hope for the
Sammy Burt [00:51:57]:
Yeah. That's the vision of the book is that the one person, you know, obviously hopes loads of people, but I'd be really curious.
James Glover [00:52:03]:
Millions and millions and millions
Sammy Burt [00:52:05]:
of millions. Or
James Glover [00:52:06]:
or that or that 9 people that listen to this podcast.
Sammy Burt [00:52:09]:
Yes. If all 9 of you could buy it, that'd be great. But I I is that is the vision of the book is that someone feels released. Someone feels untethered. Something's been untied from around them in in reading it. So that's that is the vision. Absolutely. How it started? Very arrogantly, I thought I was writing a book that I would have the answer to.
Sammy Burt [00:52:33]:
So the working title and probably the published title is, what's a grown up anyway? And when I started writing it, I thought the answer was, there's no such thing. It's a mythical creature. And I'm gonna write a book that proves that there's no such thing. And so I I did that thing very open mindedly of going out to find the research that supported the hypothesis. And then had a bit of a moment where I was like, well and and another thing happened actually. Despite the fact that when I'm at my best, I'm around other people, and the best work I do is in conversation with other people and the rest of it. I decided to write a book.
James Glover [00:53:14]:
And so I went into
Sammy Burt [00:53:14]:
a room, closed the door, and sat on my own, and forgot everything I knew about myself, which is I need to do this with people because that's that's what gets me fired up. That's what fuels me. So there were 2 big learnings probably in the 1st year, I think. One that I was being quite close minded about it or fixed minded. And the other that I was trying to do it on my own. So so I then started working with, a book coach, a writing coach, who was just fantastic at at helping me. Well, and also the 3rd battle I was playing was with imposter syndrome. How dare I think I've got a book in me? And so at first, I thought I was writing a book that was basically a compilation of everybody else's research.
Sammy Burt [00:54:00]:
And I sat with the the writing coach on the 1st day, and I was talking through the whole thing. And then I said and then at the end, I might just sort of, you know, say say what I think about it. And and she was like, what is that? And I talked her through it, and she said, so that's your philosophy? And I was like, oh, no. I don't I don't have a philosophy. That's so ridiculous. And, and she was laughing. She was like, I I I think you do. And I was like, no.
Sammy Burt [00:54:22]:
No. No. No. No. I've got an idea. I've got some thoughts. And she's like, yeah. Yeah.
Sammy Burt [00:54:26]:
Look up philosophy. And, and so I think I I I had to remind myself that I wasn't trying to write a book that needed to be factually correct. And I don't mean that I'm fast and easy with the fact, but that I didn't need to write a book that would meet everybody's needs and that could be you know, it I could write a book because it's mine about the way that I see the world, and that's perfectly valid too. But that took me a good 18 months to to realize that I was allowed to have an opinion on this subject and that, actually, it shouldn't be a book of me compiling, you know, Lisa Feldman Barrett alongside, can't think of another single thinker, Brene Brown and, you know, even, Maslow or whatever. You know, I I thought at the beginning that really this was like a curation job and that my my voice in it wasn't valid. And and then and I wondered why it was so hard to write. And and then I started writing my stories and my experience, and the whole thing isn't memoir. There's lots of stories from other people.
Sammy Burt [00:55:39]:
But I realized actually that's what's really important to me as well is storytelling. Why am I trying to tell why am I trying to create an emotional connection with someone through a fact? Like, that's not I know that's not how that works. But if I want to talk to you about biology, telling you there's a there's a story in the book that I love, which is, about it was last year, I was on holiday in France, and I was in a games room. The kids were, like, playing, and there was a lot of teenagers in there. And I watched these couple of very young teenagers, like, desperately not looking at each other. You know, this boy and this girl who clearly fancied each other, but they were desperately not looking at each other and not you know, you could see it happening. And I was like, that's a story about why biology isn't the answer to what a grown up is because they could probably procreate. I mean, should they? No.
Sammy Burt [00:56:32]:
You know? No way. They shouldn't go and do that. So that you know, so I think finding my way into stories that explain the facts felt like a big liberation. I was like, okay. I'm in this now. I get this now.
James Glover [00:56:47]:
Yeah. There's also safety in the facts. Right? If you're doing Yeah. Seems like a job. Creation job, then the responsibility is how the representation of other people's work. Whereas, and you don't have to rely on credibility there because it's in the stuff that you're sharing. Whereas As
Sammy Burt [00:57:04]:
long as I do the right citation, I'm I'm keen.
James Glover [00:57:07]:
Was actually what you're talking about is vulnerability. You're talking about being truly Kate, courageous and speaking your truth.
Sammy Burt [00:57:15]:
And Yeah. And I'm gonna have to be ready for people to say, well, I don't agree. And that's that's gonna be cool too. There was a moment. So you had, Sean Grooms on, didn't you, a little while ago? And that's how we met was he he said, you 2 excitable people need to talk to each other. Could you go over there and talk to each other, please? And, but I, I bought his book. And, and I read about 3 pages, and then I was like, I I can't read anymore. Right? I've got 2 small kids, so I was really frustrated.
Sammy Burt [00:57:45]:
I kept trying to go back to it and read it. And I ended up listening to it on audio book, and it was brilliant. But I was I got about halfway through, and I had to turn it off because I started to panic that I was trying to write the same book. And and I was like, oh, if I listen to anymore, I'm just gonna plagiarize this. And then I sat with my with my book coach, and I told her. And she was like, okay. You might be writing about the same thing, but you're definitely not writing the same book. So the the the purpose of this might be shared in that it sounds like his but this is her saying to me.
Sammy Burt [00:58:18]:
Like, it sounds like his book is about increasing people's awareness of how they work and and in order that they might make different choices. And mine is the same. And interestingly, there was there's loads of similar data points behind it, but it's not the same book and it's not the same audience. So that was another little where my imposter syndrome kind of crept up again to go, oh, someone's already written this book. And she said, how many how many books do you think there are written about Shakespeare? And I was like, oh, yeah. And she goes, how many how many books do you think there are written about Shakespeare and love? And I was like, oh, yeah. So I there's there's been quite a few moments, I think, where I've had to remind myself that it's okay that I have a perspective, and and that might be useful to someone and kinda go back to basics with it.
James Glover [00:59:06]:
And there's something really wonderful here about about perspective and, and finding it, and then finding it again.
Sammy Burt [00:59:15]:
Oh, and again and again and again and again.
James Glover [00:59:17]:
And, and part of just the the kind of human experience is always wrestling with perspective because, ultimately, we're just trying to make sense of the data that's getting into the black box, which is our brain, inside of our skull and and dependent on on how we're taking that information in any particular moment. To your point, I might talk about purpose differently tomorrow than I did today, and I probably mentioned it differently yesterday than I am doing right now. The the just the the need to sometimes be able to source external perspective and how quickly that can help us reconnect and realign to actually what matters to us is is, I think is much about the significance of purpose as understanding self. You know, the the William Damon's definition of purpose around something that has meaningfulness to the self and consequence to the world beyond the self, I love because of the fact it, it brings depth to the to our personal understanding, but it also acknowledges the interconnection of us with other people. Yes. And and that's constant and it's not going anywhere. And the dynamic nature of that interaction actually dictates the level of success. So we can call it
Sammy Burt [01:00:40]:
impossible not to be. You know, I'm challenged by this all the time that we can go and do leadership development with an individual on their own. You can't go into a white room and come out developed. You know, we are in connection, exactly as you've said, with the people around us, with the world around us, with our history, with our future. Like, A monk meditating on a mountain is still sat on grass. And it still has their own reason for being there. So so staying connected is just so important, isn't it? Because we are anyway. Like, we can't not be.
Sammy Burt [01:01:16]:
So we may as well be conscious of the connections we're making and what we're putting into them and what we're taking away from them.
James Glover [01:01:22]:
Yeah. Amazing. Alright. That's, like, that's the perfect place, I think, to kind of press the pause button. I love it. I love it. We started with purposes, everything, and nothing, and we finished with, you know, we why not just acknowledge the connection because it exists anyway and the the impact that can have. Sammy, just wonderful to have this conversation with you.
James Glover [01:01:43]:
Like, honestly, we could geek out probably Yeah.
Sammy Burt [01:01:45]:
We could geek
James Glover [01:01:45]:
out the rest of the morning and into into tomorrow, And nobody else needs that in their lives apart from maybe us. So, yeah, thank you very much for for being with us. Wonderful, wonderful conversation.
Sammy Burt [01:01:55]:
Thank you. I really enjoyed that. Just meandering through it together. It's lovely.
James Glover [01:01:59]:
Yeah. Brilliant. Alrighty. Thank you. Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitable soul dot com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.