Episode #19: Pierre Verstraeten

The Art of Self-Creation: Crafting a Life of Meaning

Excited to share another transformative episode from "The Excitable Soul Podcast" featuring the incredible Pierre Verstraeten!

In this conversation, we delve deep into the themes of purpose, self-creation, and the power of intentional choices.

In a world perpetually in motion, finding a true calling can often appear daunting.

Pierre, through his personal and professional journey, illustrates that purpose is not merely about discovery but about deliberate creation and evolution.

Here are three key takeaways from our discussion:

Creating Yourself Through Choices**: Pierre emphasizes not merely finding oneself but consciously creating oneself through each decision. This process involves a high degree of self-awareness and responsibility.

The Role of Continuous Learning and Practice**: Mastery does not arrive as perfection but as progress. Continuous learning and the willingness to adapt are crucial in aligning with one's evolving purpose.

The Power of Humility and Emotional Intelligence**: True growth involves humility and emotional intelligence. It's about owning one's story, learning from every experience, and allowing those lessons to fuel your future decisions and interactions.

Whether you're looking to pivot in your career, enhance your personal development, or gain deeper insight into living with intentionality, this episode offers profound wisdom and practical advice.

Listen to the full episode to embark on your journey of self-reflection and purpose refinement.

Read the transcript here

James Glover [00:00:09]:

Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.

James Glover [00:00:44]:

So let's get going, shall we? Today, we are gonna meet Pierre Verstraten, a transformational leader, a dedicated father, and a man who has turned his deepest pain into his greatest strength. Pierre has navigated through the complexities of loss, rebellion, and burnout to emerge with a profound understanding of his life's true purpose, from the rebellious streets of Paris to the tranquil realms of spiritual awakening in the outskirts of Barcelona, from the demanding corporate boardrooms to the almost surreal entrepreneurship of self discovery. He embodies the essence of change and the power of choice, channeling his experiences into empowering others. This conversation will serve as a guide for personal and organizational transformation from a humble visionary. He is grounded in purpose, driven by vision, and inspired by relentless pursuit of excellence. He's mega, and so is this conversation. Enjoy. Pierre, welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast.

James Glover [00:01:52]:

If ever there was another excitable soul in the world, it's you, my friend. From the moment meeting you nearly 8 years ago now, if you can imagine that amount of time has flown by, I have felt nothing but just soulful enthusiasm for who you are and how you try to be in the world. So it's really brilliant to have you on the, on the podcast today. How are you feeling?

Pierre Verstraeten [00:02:18]:

I'm feeling, honed up to be here with you, my friend. I'm very, very happy for, for being here and spending this quality time with you. I'm feeling, it's Friday. It's, it's 2 PM here in Barcelona. The sun is shining. I can still see. It looks like a very, very pleasant moment ahead of us.

James Glover [00:02:40]:

Wonderful. And so I'm immediately jealous that you are sitting, paying attention to the December sunshine, and I have just taken off a woolly jumper for this recording. But, but but, yeah, it's absolutely fantastic to to, to have you with us and for you to, be willing to kinda share your journey and your experiences of of purpose that that I know kind of, crisscross between work and and your personal life and and the journey that you've been on to kind of really, find that sense of meaning and connection in your life and the the kind of the intentionality you've brought to that journey. So let's let's just dive right in. So give us a sense of of, of where the path to to kind of purpose really started for you, Pierre? Where did you really start to uncover the need for meaning and connection?

Pierre Verstraeten [00:03:42]:

It's a very, very broad question. And, within, yeah, within so many years of life experience, it's hard to find, one definite moment. But there are there are a few moments that shaped my understanding of, my mission in life and and how it will become more and more important. So if I just very quickly, summarize, the key a few key milestones. The first one is childhood. I have been blessed with an amazing childhood. I was born in Brazil. I was raised in Ivory Coast.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:04:27]:

I lived in the States, and I arrived in Paris when I was 8. I was living, living the dream. And the first, yeah, the first the first year that I had to really wear some shoes, it was when we arrived to the to the US, because in Africa, it was like just, just bliss and and and certainly spent, Back in the days, I was, the son of an expat, and being an expat in the eighties was, a different world. Nobody lived like this anymore. Well, some may might be, but not me at least. So a very a very privileged childhood, that very radically contrasted with, my family coming back to Paris and, and my family, suddenly becoming becoming, highly dysfunctional. Meaning my my father would never understand how he could move from big houses and insane quality of life to normal flats in the Parisian suburbs and working as a as an exec in, in the launch multinational. But being a number among others, rather than being the boss in the local exotic country, you know, and so, so suddenly, suddenly, I experienced a big, a big shift in my quality of life that make me, from very young age want to live.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:05:59]:

When I was, when I was 13 years old, 13 years old is when I started to when I recall the first moment where I say, oh, I wanna get out of this house again, actually. And and why does this matter? It matters because when I was 13 years old, from a certain sense of discomfort, I started to shape my own vision of how I would like to live my life.

James Glover [00:06:23]:

Wow. At 13 years old.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:06:25]:

That was the first, the first kind of yeah. Yeah. 13 years old, and then I I want something different than than what is given to me. And then so life took me to study business, go to Toulouse, and then finally arrived to Barcelona, super happy. And another very, very important life event, shaped my relationship to purpose and meaning of life is my my older brother, Martin, who was 3 years older than I, decided to give up on life and and and move to another dimension. And that's that life events. It was one of my closest friends. That life events, make me wonder what how come that we had the same education, we had very similar cuts in the way we started our lives.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:07:27]:

And he decided that the game wasn't worth it anymore. And I said, then I started to think, man, what, what gives meaning to all of that? What makes people really want to enjoy, and build and what makes people want to give up to that extreme level. Okay? And there are many ways. It's a many many shades of gray in the middle, and so many of us are living without living, you know, they don't arrive to that end, they don't arrive to that extreme, because they don't dare they don't have the courage, but they don't feel alive every single day. What's what makes that spark? Right? I was, I was a very, of course, defining moment in my, in my life. But the the real kick was my own, burnout when I was 27 year old years old. So what happened is I was working as an organizational consultant, trying to fulfill, expectations of mom and dad, especially dad and society and having a good salary in a good position. And, and then, boom, my system stayed stopped.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:08:50]:

Not anymore. There's no fuel anymore. And and feeling in my flesh in my bones, something somehow close to what my brother felt, really forced me to start investigating how does the human system works, what makes people function from a physical standpoint from an emotional standpoint, a cognitive or mental standpoint, and a spiritual standpoint, and I then then I started to go on a quest. And it became a journey that is still going on. Right? And that is when purpose, meaning became everything For me. It became my quest, and it became my mission.

James Glover [00:09:47]:

Somehow. And so, Pierre, if we just, you know, if we just hold the seismic nature of that journey for a second, and just go, right. So there was this moment at 13 of sense making, of understanding, that immediately, shaped your sense of, I want to see the world. I want to experience the world in a different way than I am right now, which in its own right will have shaped thinking, will have shaped decision making, will have shaped choices. Then there's this there's this, the next seismic moment. And I'm sure there are that, you know, there are tons in between these things too. But but your your brother choosing that, actually, this this this isn't anymore. I don't want these experiences anymore.

James Glover [00:10:40]:

I don't wanna be here anymore. And and the the reflective way in which you went, wow. How does somebody get there? What what is it that they're experiencing that means that that choice feels like the right one for them? And, again, it was this almost, acute sense making experience of of trying to figure out what's going on here and then coming again to this this moment of burnout. I'm I'm trying to live against expectations that feel outside of me. They feel important to meet, but they're creating a huge amount of cost and burning out as a consequence. And then that being, alright. I've had enough here. I'm not doing it like this anymore.

James Glover [00:11:22]:

I'm gonna find a different way of doing it. And that being that being almost the inception of what is the what is purpose? What is the mission? What does that look like in the choice in terms of the choices that I'm going on?

Pierre Verstraeten [00:11:39]:

Yeah, that's, that's an excellent summary and purpose. There are so many books and so many, models about it. And I'm sure the people that would be listening to us, can access, chat GPT or Google to find them. So it's not it's not the point. The the thing the thing for me was going on a quest and connecting the dots between my different dimensions. And it all started by being privileged enough to, to meet Ayahuasca. Okay. And I started my journey in self discovery, by meeting people that guide me to, hey.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:12:35]:

Let's let's go on that journey. Let's go on that journey. And, that day, that day my eyes open to to some to to that different vision of life, there is a deep sense of re reverse. Okay? Very, very profound that reverse is a word. It's if you haven't experienced it, you can't really understand it, grasp it fully. It's a it's a very, there is a born twice concept that is well known. And, right. And so that moment in time, for me, it started that quest on and and for me, purpose is not so much of a goal.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:13:29]:

It's I've understood that for me, through that path, not my life at least is not about finding myself. My life is about creating myself one step at a time, one conscious decision at a time. And so, during that journey, I've explored yoga a lot, meditation, chiropractic, kinesiology. All those topics I studied and practiced for many years. And it make me responsible for the every choice I would make. Okay. So that's that for me is his purpose. It is just becoming aware and responsible of the choices that we make.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:14:25]:

So everything started on my journey to discover my own purpose and my own meaning in life, the day I had the privilege to, meet something called Ayahuasca. And and Ayahuasca, really find my understanding of existence and my place within it. And, and that very day that my eyes opened was the day my vision for life was reborn. And and and reverse is a concept that if you haven't really felt it, like the people that are born twice, people that had cancer, people that had a terrific car accident, people that were drug dependent, those kind of things, They don't really know what that means. It's it's really, really powerful. And from there from there, I I just went on a journey to understand, okay, there is a very different understanding of life than the one I had so far, just there within myself. And I want to talk to the masters, I want to talk to the people that understood that that have shown the past and that are helping people to go on that path. And though my journey has been fueled by Eastern and Western influences.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:15:50]:

In the East, I studied yoga. I studied meditation. I, studied Buddhism and Hinduism. And in the west, I have studied, shamanism from South Africa. South South Africa, sorry, and Central America also with, with Ayahuasca, but also with rituals like the vision quest or those kind of things. And so all those studies, all those influences helped me redefine the value system I wanted to live, every day and put me in front of my responsibility and every step I would make. Am I getting closer to the man I want to become? Yes. Or, or I'm just being stuck in a pattern that is toxic and meaningless?

James Glover [00:16:42]:

Yes. And the way that you framed that to me around this idea of, I'm not trying to find myself. I am actually trying to create myself. And every day is an an intentional choice of who do I want to become. There is something so freeing about that idea that you don't have to be held in place by the baggage of the past. You can continue to shape the future and the way forward. But that is also informed by the journey that you have been on in the past. So it's not it's not denying, it's not suppressing.

James Glover [00:17:24]:

It's, it's kind of, transcending, but including.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:17:34]:

I love the way you describe it, because so many people are trying to get healed from their past, and meaning what they actually what a lot of people are meaning is, I don't want to feel that anymore.

James Glover [00:17:49]:

Yes, well,

Pierre Verstraeten [00:17:50]:

tough luck. It's it's gonna be there for the rest of your life. But what what what can be done is is use that energy from in a in a different manner. Is is convert that part of your identity into a strength. I, once I read the book, I will find the name, was very interesting. It was a story of a kid in the forest. And there is this little little lake made of gold, and that lake is forbidden. You should never go to the lake, and you should never touch the lake.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:18:31]:

And that kid comes to the lake and put the finger in the lake and thumb his finger becomes golden for life. Everybody that would see the children would see that he has, broken the rule. He has put his finger in the lake, And and that became his part of his identity. And and that's the story of that kid trying to exist within his society with that mark that everybody can see. And I think it's very much about this. It's very much about embracing your past, and I like the way that you're describing it as freeing because you can redesign your future one step at a time. But there is another thing that is very freeing in my opinion is the it is the notion of having to find yourself. I coach so many people that say, I don't know who I am.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:19:28]:

I wanna find myself. And and that's that's an everyday quest that has no answer and will have any answer. You know? And that I think is really important to to for me in my belief system to acknowledge is that is every single step of the way that you're co creating with universe, with your environment, with the people around you, with the circumstances that life brings in your life, who do you wanna be? And that can be very different tomorrow than today. Nonetheless, you're the same self. And so trying to find your identity versus cocreating and be responsible for the identity that you're shaping today and tomorrow is a very different paradigm.

James Glover [00:20:16]:

Yeah. And maybe just a bit of a a tangent here, Pierre, just purely based on your skills and experience of working with others. What do you think creates the gap? So why is it do you think that people are on the journey to find themself rather than on the journey to create themself? What what sends them in one direction rather than the other?

Pierre Verstraeten [00:20:41]:

There is a there is a framework called, a conscious leadership in the US that is, it's very simple. It's above the line or below the line. If you're, if you're above the line, life is an opportunity and life is a game. And if you're below the line, life is happening to you. And and for me, the difference is ownership. Is trying to find myself is is waiting for me to be enlightened and finally find the truth and everything will be solved. And that's that's an illusion. That that doesn't happen.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:21:15]:

That's a fairy tale. And there was a one there were that is above the line is people that are taking ownership that are proactive, that are looking for answers with also a certain sense of realism and humility. And and humility in the sense that, come on. We are learning every day and believing that tomorrow everything will be solved is nonsense. And so I, the, the more I speak to older people, the more I, I love their wisdom and their humility that they keep on learning from life. And they keep on refining what they understand about about their purpose, about their footprint in life. So for me, the key differences is ownership and humility.

James Glover [00:22:06]:

Yeah. And I think, you know, just not from this conversation, but a real thread in all of the conversations that we've been having on the excitable Soul podcast is the kind of the sense of ownership and and willingness to take accountability. So there are some things you have to front up to if you're gonna take ownership. You have to say, oh, wow. That doesn't feel very good, or or I'm not so sure about that, but it's important that I own it. It's important that I embrace it. It's important that I connect from it because to to maintain a level of distance means that I can't truly understand what I need. And and the difference between what you want and what you need can can be the difference between feeling a sense of progress, feeling a sense of learning and growth, and feeling stuck.

James Glover [00:22:59]:

Because you can be chasing something that doesn't really exist. So the interconnection between ownership and reality feels really, really important. And, actually, the the kind of the I'm imagining this is kind of what it's like eliciting me, listening to you, that that sense of humility, that willingness to go, I don't have this figured out, as it turns out, and it was gonna require effort for me to to do that. That almost feels like the vehicle to being able to create the ownership and the accountability.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:23:36]:

Yeah. I I love what you're saying. And and if if we deep dive a little bit or so into into this humility, there is the first thing is that there is no such thing as as truth when it comes to your own identity or or your sense of purpose, that are absolute. And and if you don't have that humility to question yourself and to refine and to realize that this evolves at the time, day after day life event after life events. And, and you're arrogant enough to believe and to say, well, this is like this, well, the learning curve has suddenly stopped. And another side of humility is that arrogance that says, Sydney, the end goal looks like that. This is what I'm going to build. This is what I'm going to create.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:24:37]:

This is what my ego actually wants to create. Right? And, and when we talk about purpose, you know, it's it's deeply connected to, okay, what what are you gonna build? What's your what what's the footprint that you want to leave on earth? And I think humility comes with flexibility to say, hey. I have a sense of the impact I want to have on others, but how? I leave that to I leave that to universe. I leave that circumstances that you led to what the people around me need. Right? And that and that that is, for me, very key in in driving happiness. Because I define, one of this way I see happiness is the gap or the alignment between my expectation and what is actually happening. And when there is humidity, expectations are as little as low as possible. Not in the sense that I have no ambition, but in the sense that I can dance in the moment.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:25:55]:

I can play with what's gonna come. I just want to be true to myself and to my value system and to my purpose in the way I'm going to make decision that I'm going to play with what's coming my way. But things doesn't have to end the way I designed it 5 or 10 years ago. That makes no sense.

James Glover [00:26:13]:

Yeah. And and could you could you give us a sense of how you have done that? You know, how have you defined that value system, but how do you continue to maintain a level of openness to to the universe and to others about the contribution that you want to and can make in the world? Like, give us now for those that are listening that that's kinda going, woah, like, there is some there is some deep insight here that I need to wrestle with. How do they how do they action that? How do they turn that into reality? What was your experience?

Pierre Verstraeten [00:26:54]:

I mean, the the the 2 there are 2 different questions. Right? So for me is, how do you define your value system and how you keep that evolving? And the second thing is is how do you wanna contribute to the to the universe? Right? Value system. I've understood to simplify it to an energetical, reality that that's what works best for me. And I just try to read the messages that my body is giving back giving back to me when I do something or wanna say something. It's like when you and I when you and I are talking, the level of energy that I have in my body, the tone of my voice, how do I look at you? That is telling me that I'm just realizing my purpose, and this is really true to my values. And there's a way around. If I do something like I had the other day a conversation with someone that was just bringing me problems and problems and problems and problems and no solution, and there were no ownership and it would drag me down. Okay.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:28:03]:

Then I can I can directly see that, one of my values is transmitting knowledge, which is what we're doing today? And another of my value is ownership, which was a met in that conversation that drove my energy down. Right? Yeah. And so the way the way I read my value system is through the energetical response that I feel in every moment, in every conversation and every action I take.

James Glover [00:28:32]:

Alright, we need to like, we need to, we just need to lock that down. Right? Let's just take a moment because

Pierre Verstraeten [00:28:40]:

I don't

James Glover [00:28:41]:

know about you. I've been, you know, we live live in this world of of of kind of human performance and human development, and we can really invest in learning. And we want to bring other people and support other people in that journey of understanding more. And there is lots of knowledge out there that people can kind of absorb. They can devour. They can take piece by piece, but they just need to pause and listen to that for a second because the hairs on my arms are standing up, which is the way in which I read my value system is by paying attention to the energy experience that I'm having in the moment. And that helping me see whether or not I feel alignment or misalignment with a value in that moment. And how and the the layers of wonderfulness here, Pierre, there's a simplicity to it, which is allow your self to feel what you are feeling and use that data to be able to give you a guide as to how connected or not you are to what matters.

James Glover [00:29:43]:

Mega. 2nd is, the fact that the the presence or absence of your values in any experience still is giving you a sense of what is happening. So if the values are absent, you're going to feel some stuff. If the values are present, you're going to feel some stuff and knowing that you're feeling some stuff is important because that then creates the picture or the view of the world that that you need to lean into. And and it goes so much further than here's a whole load of words on a play on a page. Which one of those feel important to you?

Pierre Verstraeten [00:30:27]:

Man? So that that I important to me there. The first thing is, no matter how many books you read, it won't ever make you happy. It won't ever, make you connected to your purpose. For me, it is worth looking at for me purpose and meaning in life is something very spiritual. And funny enough, spirituality goes with practice. And so the the the real the real sensation, the energetical experience of what I feel, this is true to you, not to the book, not to the serie, not to the model. And so the truth is within yourself, not within the books. And books are very insightful, but but there is nothing more insightful than your own body and your emotion system.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:31:18]:

Right? That that that's the first thing. The second thing is that is I think is super important is being able to have that simplicity in reading my energy levels and what is happening is codependent with the notion of which emotion am I allowed to feel. What I mean with that is that a lot of us have introjections. Introjections are things that we learn from family, from our culture, from our work, from whatever. That that says, for example, anger is forbidden, anger is bad. Sadness is for weak people. You know, those kind of things. And and so the more you have those barriers, the less, the more difficult it will find for you it will be difficult for you, sorry, to to really be able to read your compass on in the moment freely and get to know you and get to reach your own essence because there are areas of yourself that you reject because they've been rejected by your parents and by the society and whatever, and you ban them.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:32:34]:

And that is that that that fluidity in the emotional intelligence, in the ability to read and embrace every emotion of the humankind is not a given for most of us. It's something that you have to, free up from the learnings, from the conditioning that we all receive from, from from our young age or the environment we're in. So two things, practice over knowledge and experience over models. That's the first thing. And the second thing is every emotion is part of humankind and is yours to own. And I had the other day a conversation with my wife about anger, and she's a very spiritual being. And and and and and we're discussing about how how do we allow ourselves to feel anger and so yeah, but my my spiritual teachers, then they try to to put anger on the side Unlike it's a it's a bad emotion to feel, it's toxic to you, it's toxic to others. But if you look at it, it took psychology into the very basic psychology concept, so all emotions are part of yourself.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:33:47]:

And the more you reject something, the more it controls you. And so and so for for me, there is there is a work to be done here here, acceptance of I am all that all that is possible. And therefore, I can flow from one extreme to the other one without seek seeking a perfect balance that doesn't exist. Yes. Be be, or avoidance of some parts of myself that are described by by Calleung, just my shadow, and my shadow is controlling me.

James Glover [00:34:21]:

Yeah. Beautiful. Just beautifully eloquent, Pierre. And, this may sound, this is in no way going to do justice to the wisdom that you just shared. But a practical reality in my life at the moment is we have been doing work at our house and have been extremely grateful to be able to move my family in with with my parents. It's been wonderful experience for for everybody, but we're really eager to be able to get back into our into our home. And, I found myself in the last few days as things are kind of narrowing towards the finish line, becoming more and more frustrated, more and more irritated, more and more kind of anxious around the things that are happening and aren't happening. And, my wife has been just an incredible guide in me not creating the level of judgment of myself, but actually really understanding what's happening here, which is I'm trying to meet a perceived expectation.

James Glover [00:35:28]:

And the perceived expectation is entirely one that I have cultivated. It has been on me to feel like we need to be at a certain place at a certain time. It is me feeling like I need to meet the needs of my family, whether that's giving my parents their house back or giving my children their rooms back or, you know, allowing my wife to have the space that we wanted to create. But the reality of all of that is that none of it is real. It is all something that I have cultivated in the moment. And that that false reality has driven those emotions and actually just being able to kind of play that out. Who who's putting the timeline on this? Like, why is that why is that eliciting all of these? Now there's a practical reality, which is I need and the builders need something to aim towards. Right? And we need to be on the same team to kind of get across the finishing line together and be able to decipher what that finishing line looks like.

James Glover [00:36:26]:

But all of the emotions that I just described have come to the fore have all been generated by an internal expectation that I've set. The moment that my wife is able to help me call that out is the moment that I can let go of it, and I'm no longer suffering the cost. Now that isn't me going, oh, wow. Those emotions are bad. I need to not feel them. I need to push them to one side, it's me just going, will not understand them. And actually, there's a likelihood that they will reoccur, but at least I understand them. Because that gives me choice.

James Glover [00:37:01]:

It gives me agency.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:37:07]:

Yes, I love what you bring, because we come back to the point that we mentioned earlier, it's all about expectations. When you set expectation and expectation and you are not met, this is the per this is the formula for anger, frustration, impatience, you name it. I I tell you a story when I when I become a dad for me, becoming a dad was not an easy journey because my value number 1 was freedom. And we're coming back to how do I my value system, can evolve. It was it was freedom, and suddenly, the first months of fatherhood are not very, very pleasant. You are a logistic guy trying to help your wife and your daughter bond and be safe. And so okay. Alright.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:37:56]:

And remember that, you know, we were first a parent, now we have 2 kids. And every difficult health situation would directly take us to the hospital because now oh my god, we don't know what is happening. And we need to be secure. And, and I remember so many nights where my wife telling me, hey, we need to go to the hospital because something is happening. I think the first year we've been like 12 times. Maybe we were too anxious. I don't know. But as I was suffering a lot from the loss of freedom, I started to investigate a little bit on the on the meaning of freedom.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:38:33]:

And and for me, it was not about the the what I expect the night should be. Like you, when when when do we expect to be able to come back to home, to my own my own home? I thought that would create suffering. But it was okay. This is happening to me. Who's the man I wanna be in that situation when when at 4 o'clock my wife is coming, say, hey. There is something happening. And do I wanna be, grumpy and frustrated because life is not happening as I expect it to happen? Or do I own my choice? Hey. Hey.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:39:16]:

The father I wanna be is the father that, makes it easy for everybody, to go and find out what is happening for my kids. Right? And and so that that that redefinition of freedom, by freedom, by we are free in every single decision, no matter the constraints, no matter the limits of the context. We are free to make a choice one way or the other. And which choice is making me the man I wanna be, the man I wanna look at when I'll see myself in the mirror in the morning. And so if I come back to your story, you know, now do you express that situation with your parents and your wife and your kids? And and there is always a choice. Do I want to focus on a is the deadline deadline for moving to the new house the one I want? Or I am making this experience pleasant for everybody. That's a choice that we have in every single context that we hear. So it's for me, there are 2 concepts here.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:40:21]:

Again, that humidity that lowers, the importance of my own expectations. And the second thing is, what's the decision I can make to get closer to the man I wanna be in that context.

James Glover [00:40:38]:

Alright. Pierre, just I I think I need to kinda just hold us for a moment in this space because it's kind of just the wisdom is pouring out of you. This idea of, you know, humility being the thing that kind of lowers the importance of my expectation. So now in that example that we're using, it's me that's setting the the timeline. It's me that's kind of driving and creating a level of intensity and discomfort. But actually, what's needed of me is to recognize that, acknowledge it, and realize that what I want in this moment probably isn't as important as what we, the collective, the family needs. I almost hear you framing that in a way of what's the decision that helps me get closer to the man that I want to be. So who and how do I really wanna show up in this moment? How do I want my kids to see me or remember me in this in this moment? And similarly for you in that that, example of of the 1st year of fatherhood and being woken in the middle of the night.

James Glover [00:41:38]:

And, you know, I I can really resonate with that sense of, but I've literally been asleep for 5 minutes, and it's 4 AM. Like, what is happening? But knowing that that that that isn't actually who I want to be. Who I want to be is the person that is able to lower the anxiety of my partner, make sure that I'm taking care of of, of my of my daughter, of my little person. I think the thing that's really showing up for me or the question that I really have here is, how do you do that when when you are really triggered, when you are really challenged, when maybe you are not at the best of yourself? How do you create the moment to make a different type of choice rather than just feeling compelled to to kind of act in any particular way?

Pierre Verstraeten [00:42:29]:

Very good, very good question. The the first thing, is I screw up a lot. I think it's also important to, to that's also part the humility. Right? So it's, I'm human. And, when a situation is ready to doing my core values and especially when time pressure goes high, then sometimes I screw up. No problem. But life also teach me that no matter how how how big the mistake, you can flip that around and make it an opportunity for growth and even strengthening of the relationship if you do that right. And so so so sometimes in the very moment, I do not know how to do it better.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:43:31]:

Okay? But there is this constant practice of self awareness and self reflection that goes with, okay, what could I what could have I done better? Was I true to myself? Beside humility, there is a concept that is very, very important. It's honesty with oneself. Okay? And so, when we have that, you have the ability to reflect, sit back, reflect, and and just structure what's the what's the impact I had on users and what's the right message I want to frame in order to make the other feel understood, respected, and to course correct, my point in order to reflect who I wanna be.

James Glover [00:44:35]:

Yes. Okay. And and so that immediately makes me think of 2 things. 1 is the the, the self compassion of being able to acknowledge that we're human and we're going to make mistakes. So let's not hammer ourselves. Let's not give ourselves a lot of abuse for not getting it right in the moment, but let's also be honest with ourselves and say, we could've done that better. And so how might we do that better in the future? That feels, liberating.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:45:12]:

You know, it it it what you're saying is so, is so important because one day I was seeing that picture, that drawing. I was trying to describe it so the people that listening to us can understand it. Imagine, a whiteboard with divided in, let's say, 30 30, boxes. And in in each box is a human emotion. Okay? And some are pride, joy, and some are envy, jealousy, anger. And so and the and so imagine a person showing up and say, hey. That's my whiteboard. This is who I am.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:45:51]:

I am all that. And the people would be like, oh, what the fuck? You have you seen this? Have you seen that? That person is ugly. So that so so oneself will will feel ashamed and try to hide. Oh, okay. Sorry. I I see that the people are not reacting well to seeing that I can be angry. So I I will try to hide my anger. And suddenly, what you're building in the in the psychology of people is walls to try to contain anger so that it they are not it's not it's not visible to the world because that's what you've understood, that it is not welcome.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:46:28]:

As soon as you're building those wall, your anger starts to control your life because you won't be able to express frustration in a in a fine manner, in a manner, in a in a nuanced manner. It will be from 0 to 100. You have no choice about it because you don't accept it. It doesn't belong to you anymore. You've tried to isolate it. You've tried to hide it. And, therefore, boom, that part of you that you're so ashamed of that is your shadow, we already mentioned shadow from Carl Jung earlier in the podcast. Right? Is suddenly concerning you and showing up to the world in an an unconsolid way when you don't decide it.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:47:17]:

And so and so easing up, and having the self compact compassion that says, I am all that, and I I accept all this. The only thing is I recognize that some of those human parts are not, really bringing the impact I want to bring to the world. And, therefore, when the when those emotions appear, I don't try to, neglect them because sometimes they are very useful. Ask, ask a father of, and I don't have a I don't want to go into politics, but imagine you're living in Kiev in a in a plane, and suddenly there is a Russian soldier coming to your house. Could you be a murderer to defend your family? Right? Would anger be there? Right? So some of those emotions that are socially unaccepted are, in some situations, the best answer. And you want to have the flexibility. You want to own your whole self. And so, I personally recognize when those parts of myself, are manifesting.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:48:50]:

And when I self reflect and I say, oh, you know what? That did not create the impact I wanted to create in that very moment. It was it was inappropriate.

James Glover [00:49:01]:

Yeah.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:49:01]:

And then then we can formulate, the right message and come back to the to the to the person.

James Glover [00:49:07]:

And how does how does purpose enable this process? I'm, you know, I'm I'm kind of making the assumption here that when you're clear on a on your sense of purpose, you know, you've talked about this language of quest and mission that were born out of a journey of self exploration, and, and a and a strong desire to to to intentionally cultivate and nurture a person that you want to be. So, you know, clarity around what matters to you, clarity around the contribution that you want to make. The assumption I'm making is that when you invest in that work, that becomes an anchor in these moments to be able to create a sense of self compassion or to be able to create a sense of context and perception. In this moment, I didn't necessarily behave the way that I wanted to because you have a sense of who you wanted to be, because you have a clarity of purpose. But I'm making the assumption about all of that. Like, how does how does purpose frame and scaffold that those choices and decisions for you?

Pierre Verstraeten [00:50:15]:

It's it's a great question because you you you helped me to come back to your initial questions. It's how do you do that in the moment. My first answer was a, sometimes I screw up. But but but but the other the other option is kind of that that formula where purpose has a has an important role. That formula is a purpose or meaning. It is is the the the core and the base of, what I want my footprint to be, on this in this society. And on top of that, are some kind of operating principles or values. Okay? Values manifest, and when they manifest, they become operating principles.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:51:10]:

And so when you have this moment of self reflection after you screwed up or even during the moment where just you're just trying to buy time. You're just trying to say, okay. This is happening. This is triggering me. I'm self aware. I'm conscious of my reaction. I've noticed my red flags, the heartbeat, the temperature, the tone of my voice. I see all that happening, and I'm able to buy time.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:51:39]:

Okay. Buy time. What do I really want to to create with that interaction? Everything we do has a positive intent. Okay? Even even when we believe even when we are we are being angry, without without knowing it, if there is no self awareness, what you're trying to do is protect your values. There is a there is a positive intent in every single thing we do. Okay? And so when you buy time in that situation, in that moment, and recommend to, hey. What's my true goal with that interaction and how that interaction is bringing me closer to realization of my meaning? Okay? I I give you an illustration. So I'm, I'm a coach.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:52:32]:

I'm a trainer, And, sometimes, you have to set up a room for it for it. You have to print your your your training data, your whatever. Those are not really, pleasant actions to perform. Right? But but when when they when they are simply connected to why am I doing this? What's my positive intent here, and how this setup is gonna facilitate the bigger, picture that I have in mind? Then it all makes sense, and then it all then it becomes very natural. You don't think about it. You just naturally do your best so that that interactions serves the the core positive intent that you have, which is the realization of your purpose.

James Glover [00:53:24]:

I there's something inherently hopeful of being able to turn around and say, somewhere here, there is a positive intent, and you need to understand and surface that positive intent because it will help you make sense of the reaction. Like, what what is it? What is it that that actually you can you can see and understand about yourself that is a root cause for that interaction and and that. But and I'm I I'm, you know, I'm thinking that there's a rabbit hole conversation here of us getting into the positive intent in every action, for sure. But but there's but there's something important for people to hold on to. Right? I'm I'm thinking about our listeners and us and us, you know, the provocation that we're putting to them, which is when you have clarity on what matters to you and the contribution that you're trying to make in the world, when you are purposeful and you're intentional about that, you can then make choices. And, you know, you've said in this conversation, there is freedom in choice. We have the freedom to make any choice in any situation, in any scenario. So the first thing there is accountability, Right? And ownership.

James Glover [00:54:31]:

You are the one that are respond is responsible for that choice. That feels hard. Right? Wow. Wallop. All of a sudden, I've I've got to own that. I've got to hold this. Are you joking? Do you know the situation I find myself in? Do you know what they say to me?

Pierre Verstraeten [00:54:45]:

But

James Glover [00:54:45]:

we're saying, no, hold on, start with you. Then off the back of that, we're turning around and saying, but remember that you are human being. You're not perfect and you're not going to respond in exactly the right way all of the time. So just give yourself a bit of a break. It doesn't take away the accountability, but give yourself a bit of a break. The next step here is who do you want to be? Are you clear on that? What's the gap that you're trying to close? And remember that whatever your reaction was in this situation, there will have been some positive intent behind it. We're kind of, we're creating a reality of experience for people here, which is there is some stuff that's going to make you feel like there's effort and there is you have to create the accountability. But there's also a sense of liberation, which is it's not all on you.

James Glover [00:55:31]:

Okay? Be kind to yourself. You're never going to get it a 100% right. And then there is a hopefulness of, actually, there is something important here and useful and positive for me to pay attention to in in the thick of any situation or circumstance. That feels really magical to me.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:55:50]:

And and that and that connects to their third element of the equation, which is practice. So the first element of the equation is meaning. Right? What's my what what do I wanna rewrite? The second element is operating principles or values. How do I want to interact in the world in order to realize that meaning and create the impact I wanna create. But the third thing is practice, practice, practice. And and little. With practice comes continuous learning loop. That make what make me connect with that is that when you are too hard on yourself, you're not allowing the learning had to happen.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:56:43]:

When you're beating yourself up, you're not having the right conversation with yourself. Okay? You need to you need to have that, beginners, I you know, that, that that kind of the the chairman says, it's the observer mode. You know? You step out of yourself, and you look at yourself. Oh, poor kid. Right? And and what is to be learned, for for him? So don't beat yourself up at all because this is not the right conversation to have. The practice and learning are, of course, coming together. They are they are 2 sides of the same coin. You practice, you practice, you practice.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:57:29]:

Practice makes perfect. It's an English expression. I don't believe so much to perfection. Because because when you say it's it's hopeful, it I don't know why it it triggered a word in my mind that was it's also infinite. You can you you can keep on improving again and again and again and again and get better at the way you, treat others and get closer at your purpose. And why it's infinite? It's because purpose is something so conceptual that can be replicated or manifested in so many forms that it never ends. When a human being is driven by its ego, like, I'm gonna build that building, and I'm gonna put my name on it as the biggest architect of the of of the city. You know? That is ego, and that that is.

Pierre Verstraeten [00:58:26]:

Alright. But purpose is not. The architect in itself, the person who designed the building is not gonna end after that building. He will keep on creating vision. He will keep on helping other having different life experience, and you want to remove yourself from it has to have that shape. It has to have that form. It has to be that way because that is the ego game, but the manifestation of your purpose is something that is infinite, and the way you're gonna master and the way you're gonna, be able to manifest it with more elegance, with more art, with more kindness to others, for me, is an infinite path of improvement.

James Glover [00:59:16]:

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. And let's let's maybe change up the English language, this idea of practice makes perfect. Let's let's let's reframe that into, practice creates progress. That's I think that then that's more I think that's more useful for us. So, Pierre, I guess what where that kinda leads me really in this conversation is, is maybe just to get your thoughts when you look forward.

James Glover [00:59:41]:

You know, you you talked about, you know, the kind of the meaning element. You talked about the kind of the the values manifestation and the the importance of practice. But I'm really interested in the kind of the leaps of faith bit. I'm I'm really look I'm interested in when you think about purpose and you look forward and you think about the future that you're trying to create, what where what do you where have been the leaps of faith maybe, but also, you know, those kind of moments of courage? And, what are you excited about? What do you think is now gonna be possible for you when you think about purpose in the future?

Pierre Verstraeten [01:00:18]:

When Little face in my life, I have been, always relatively cautious. And when I decided to change career and go into, people's transformation business, it was 2,011, I have been step by step trying to learn, trying to improve. I remember once I was working in a in a multinational, and I was delivering a workshop for leadership team, and and the the the boss of that, that leadership team, at the end of the workshop told me, wow. The the day you start your own business, you're gonna get clients. And and I was like, wow. That that was that was the biggest compliment that I could get, and it's someone that I really, really trust. And I I was like, oh my god. But I would not I I did not believe it.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:01:20]:

It was too far. And so I had to go through another, corporate experience after that, and then started my own company with, with couple of friends. Again, you know, being cautious. So starting my own company, but not alone. With couple of couple of friends with with complimentary skills, to test the waters. I will always be able to come back. I'm not alone trying to do that. And I was leading my, my my part of the practice.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:01:51]:

We were we're small we're small consulting company, and, I was leading my practice. And Impractice always overperformed. I was like, man, after a couple of years looking at all those numbers, target versus achievement of the, there is some there is something that that is okay ish. And, and so I have to say that I've needed some proof, some security in order to really get in the flow. And, after that experience, I decided to to move on and and and and build my own company, and I'll be other be leading that on my own. And I I I did that was a pure leap of faith, but, also, not so much requiring bravery because bravery is having fear and doing it anyway. Right? And and and and I've been very, I've been I think I've been very cautious and somehow a little bit risk adverse. Yeah.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:03:01]:

Like like, I need to build it one step at a time and make sure the bridge is solid enough so I can cross from one side to the other one, and and and take my family with me. And and and and and so that's, that's what I've been doing, and and and I have to say that the more I keep working in in the same direction, the more I see that what did you say? Practice makes improvement, something like this? Progress. Thank you. Thank you. I I I like your I like also the term a better version. It's not best because best may win an end. It's it's it's better. It keeps on getting better better.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:03:50]:

And so, I think I use that sense of purpose to as a compass to assess decision after decision, project after project, which one is the one that is makes me resonate the most, make me progress the most on my back. But but I have to say that strength I'm very, very grateful because now I do have trust that I'm in a certain certain flow where there is abundance of work, abundance of opportunity to meet wonderful people to work with, and abundance of opportunity for me to keep on improving. So my my my my wife is big is big on the concept of abundance, and I do not know much about it myself. But I I take it as the trust that more is coming.

James Glover [01:04:54]:

And I I one one of the things that I adore about having these conversations, and, and I'm always grateful for all of our guests to come and just share with kind of authenticity around their experiences of purpose is that people orientate to it in different ways. So there's a sense of leap of faith, which is about bravery and courage. I'm going into the unknown because I feel conviction around purpose. And so I'm just gonna will it to happen. But actually, what I've just heard from you there feels compelling in a completely different way, which was actually, you know what? I I'm I've been cautious and deliberate in the choices that I've made, but purpose has been the sense making mechanism to help me make those choices. Does this feel does this next step feel like I'm going on the path that leads me to growth, leads me to progress, leads me to the person that I want to be? And purposes help you make that choice of this or that. So it might not be this massive leap into the unknown. It's an incremental shift, but purpose has been the guide around the choices that's helped you see the next increment.

James Glover [01:06:09]:

So the out the end game is still the same, right, which is progress.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:06:14]:

You know, I I think it's super important when you talk about self compassion earlier, to allow people to be themselves in their own relationship with their purpose. When you know, there is sometimes there's a little bit of big picture of of positivity, of, of, yeah, trust and going to flow, that those kind of things that you hear a lot in the spiritual world. And and what if I doubt? If I if I doubt, am I the black sheep? Am I am I am I not doing it right? Because that's not the book says I should note down. Right? That's what that's what the book says. And and and so I think it's important for everyone to respect his own nature. Some are risk adverse. Some are risk takers, and it's not black and white. It's a scale.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:07:06]:

And there are moments when you're gonna be driven by vision and you're gonna be there are moments where you're gonna be driven by safety. And it all depend on what is at stake in front of you. We all have a family, not not everybody has a family, but we all have bills to pay. Right? And sometimes you need to secure stuff. Okay? And sometimes you can be a bit to be the bigger man and a bigger bit little bit of more visionary and take more risk. So accept that it's, it's kind of a gravity center that sometimes goes down when you want to protect safety and sometimes goes up when you when you when you feel like the stars are aligned enough to take a leap of faith. You don't have to take a leap of faith at every steps you make. That's in my opinion in my opinion, that would be a lack of, care.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:07:59]:

You know? If it's a word in French, it is prudence. I'm not sure how it's yeah?

James Glover [01:08:05]:

Yeah. Prudence. Prudence. Yeah. Yeah.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:08:07]:

Yeah. Right? And and and so, I I I personally, try to integrate that concept in my life. Okay? And I don't know if we should discuss that earlier in the podcast, but one day, that that shaman told me that the the the purpose of the mind is to serve the purpose of the heart. And, therefore, I I have the purpose of the heart that tells me this is what I wanna build. This This is how I want to impact society. But my mind is is structured, is process driven, is logical, is pragmatic, And, therefore, I'm gonna I'm gonna build a solid bridge, man, so I can make it to the other side happy and healthy with my kids and my wife. Yeah. And so I have my I have my own way to take my leap of faith that is

James Glover [01:08:57]:

Yeah.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:08:57]:

Meeting my nature and and my circumstances.

James Glover [01:09:02]:

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Right. But you know what? Well, I just wanna pause. I wanna stop the conversation here, because that is the thing that should be in people's ears, and in their minds and in their hearts when they when they leave this conversation, which is we should all be given the freedom to orientate around purpose in our own way, but we should all put the effort into understanding what that way is. And I love this this this principle of the purpose of the mind is to serve the purpose of the heart. If we could all be if we could all understand that interaction just so thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with you, and, just so thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with you and your your perspective, your soulfulness, your wisdom, it's just been wonderful.

James Glover [01:09:53]:

And I know that the people listening are gonna, get just a huge amount out of it. So thank you so much for being with us.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:10:00]:

Thank you. Thank you so much, James. It's always a pleasure to be with you. Thank you so much for having me. And and, you know, when, when I received your onboarding pack, it is incredibly well designed. I I am surprised how organically the our conversation evolved into something deeper that, that what it is had expected. And I I think if we're able to bring that very human, conversations to the corporate world, we are really having a big impact rather than having podcasts about, hey. This is how you raise pounds.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:10:43]:

Hey. This is how you set up your structure for scale, blah blah blah, which we hear everywhere. So I it's really, super grateful for the quality of the conversation that, you, you conducted for for both of us.

James Glover [01:11:00]:

Amazing. Well, you are welcome, and thank you for that too. It's incredibly kind of you. Have a have a wonderful day.

Pierre Verstraeten [01:11:07]:

You too. Thank you, James.

James Glover [01:11:10]:

Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitablesoul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.