Episode #15: Arjun Sahdev
Authentic Success: Embracing Intrinsic Values
Episode 15 of The Excitable Soul Podcast, where we explore the profound journey of self-discovery and the quest for true fulfilment with our guest, Arjun Sahdev.
Arjun shares his insights on redefining success, embracing intrinsic values, and cultivating a purpose-led life.
During the conversation, he delves into his journey of confronting perfectionism, reevaluating priorities, and the transformational power of taking leaps of faith in life. He shares the pivotal moments that shaped his perspective, including leaving investment banking and founding his own business.
This episode marks a remarkable exploration of the shift from seeking external validation to finding fulfilment in intrinsic joy and meaningful connections, particularly with loved ones. Arjun's story serves as a profound reminder of the importance of reevaluating our personal values and striving for a balanced distribution of intrinsic and extrinsic values to cultivate happiness and fulfilment.
We encourage you to listen to our conversation with Arjun Sahdev on The Excitable Soul Podcast and discover the transformative power of embracing intrinsic values and pursuing a purpose-led life.
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Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find Meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique Tense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host, James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:44]:
So let's get going, shall we? Okay, everybody. My guest today is Arjun Sadev. Arjun is a cofounder and head of innovation at a leading consultancy outside, where he works to build powerful vision and practical tools for growth. After starting his professional journey as an investment banker, Arjun began to find himself being drawn to the disruptive nature of emerging businesses. This ultimately led him on the adventure of being a founder in the startup world where he ran a thriving wellness subscription business. Arjun is also founder and host of the influential careers podcast, The Right Work, where they guide listeners on a journey to explore their own definitions of the right work. Arjun is somebody I've known for a long time, and his courage and curiosity in the world is compelling. I know that you will enjoy this reflection, His reflections on a meaningful life.
James Glover [00:02:04]:
Arjun is somebody I've known for a long time, And his courage and curiosity in the world is compelling. I know you will enjoy his reflections on a meaningful life. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Excitable Soul Podcast. This week, I have my very great friend, Arjun Saleh, with me. Arjun, welcome, welcome, welcome. How are you feeling today?
Arjun Sahdev [00:02:26]:
Thank you, James. I am delighted to be here, super excited, to be on the podcast. I think we were just talking a little while ago about, the fact that I listened to the first few that have come out have loved them so far. So It's, it's really, really nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me on.
James Glover [00:02:45]:
Alright. You are so welcome, my friend. So welcome. And, I think it's just a real gift for us to be able to spend this time together when we don't get as much as we would probably like, but also for us to be able to share this conversation with, You know, the as many people as are gonna kinda tune in and listen, I think I can't I can't kick us off without, kind of going almost off script immediately, and, and just reflecting for a moment on the first time that that you and I met. Actually, you were kinda young entrepreneur. I don't know whether this was, like, the 2nd business that you'd started or, like, you was the 1st business you started, but it was, like, one of 3. And you were you'd come to come to the energy project just to Kinda pitch us with your your your idea for the the business that you were running at the time. And I remember being sat in this room with you, listening to you Tell the story of your journey before you ever really got into talking about the business and just thinking, This is a remarkable human being.
James Glover [00:03:53]:
Like, whether or not we end up working together on this bit of business, I really hope we get to work together in some shape or form. And I can't even remember how long ago that was. Can you, can you remember when you walked in then?
Arjun Sahdev [00:04:06]:
I guess you got you got the invoice That is unfair. You're you're far too kind, James. I mean, come on. Yeah. I mean, that that was an incredible moment. That was, It really was the start of a long friendship and and kind of, Working relationship where I think there was so much that I learned over that period of time from from everybody at the energy project, including yourself, on so many of, I guess, the topics we'll we'll talk about today. But, yeah, looking back on that a long, long time ago now
James Glover [00:04:44]:
Yeah. Must be 7 7 years. Maybe 7
Arjun Sahdev [00:04:47]:
years, probably. Yeah.
James Glover [00:04:48]:
Yeah. Something something like that. Anyway, sorry. Didn't mean to derail us. But but I guess it it kind of, it starts us in the territory here. Like, those, that that kinda listen to the to the podcast will know that we are trying to build and create a bit of a format that people can rely upon. You know, purpose as a conversation can feel really big and can feel really overwhelming When in in actual fact, it's just a deeply, deeply human experience. And so we try to break it down into The kind of this sense of uncovering purpose because it's within all of us.
James Glover [00:05:20]:
So what's what's been the journey of discovery that people have been on? So how do we go back and Notice the moments that have shaped us. Then, you know, once we've once we've been able to kinda get a sense of where where meaning, arrives for us and the kind of contribution that we're trying to make into the world and the impact of that. How do we understand it more readily? Where are we aligned, and where are there gaps? And then 3rd and, 3rd and finally, we're we're kind of really looking at this this kind of sense of leaps of faith, whereas purpose made things possible that that we didn't necessarily would be before. And so, yeah, we all start with the big hitter, the kind of the journey of discovery, uncovering purpose. I'm ready. And and ask the bed. You're ready? You're ready? Yeah. I love Shuffle in the sea.
James Glover [00:06:03]:
I am ready. Let's do this, with the big questions of, like, what are some of the some of the moments or people that have really defined who you are in the world Today, Arjun.
Arjun Sahdev [00:06:15]:
Yeah. That that is a big one for sure. To be honest, I think 2 things really stand out to me, and and I I guess this the first one isn't a surprise. It's it's My childhood, really. You know? The way that my my childhood kind of influenced my priorities and and my decisions as I grew up as a as a young adult. And then I think the second1 was, leaving my my first career in investment banking, Leaving that world, which ultimately required me to kind of untie the career path from my identity, which Which wasn't which wasn't easy, you know, kind of mid twenties. So I guess if I just kick off and and and start talking about The childhood portion of of this. The the pivotal moment really was, 16th September 1992.
James Glover [00:07:13]:
Wow. Like, a moment you can literally put your finger on with a date. Yeah.
Arjun Sahdev [00:07:18]:
I can. I can. And the reason was because it was called, and so there's a history history lesson here. It was called, Black Wednesday. And the day was actually called Black Wednesday, and it was when the UK government were desperately trying to keep the value of the pound stable and and high enough to, participate at the time in something that was called the European exchange rate mechanism. It was it's called the So, basically, there were a ton of speculators betting against the pound thinking it was overvalued. The government was trying to defend it, and one of the tactics they used was Really high interest rates in the hope that foreign investors would come from abroad and hold their wealth in pounds. Right? Because they were getting this really attractive interest rate.
Arjun Sahdev [00:08:04]:
So on 16th September, as my dad tells me, The day starts with interest rates at 10%, which is, like, scary in itself. Yes. By 10:30 in the morning, they were 12%, and by the afternoon, they were 15%. So, this was The UK incomplete crisis trying to save the the Great British pound.
James Glover [00:08:31]:
And let's just and let's just, like, put that into perspective right now. Because what we're experiencing right now, look at the rise that we've had in the last 12 months, which is a fraction of that over 12 months. This happened in a day.
Arjun Sahdev [00:08:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. It it was absolutely unprecedented. So, the the UK ultimately failed to defend the pound, and it just Plummeted in value. It was, it was forced out of the And in the aftermath of all this, which is Kind of where it comes back to to my story or the the inception of this story is, by the way, it was also a time of recession, so, So so this was this added to to the pressure. But in the aftermath of all this, it meant my my parents lost their business, and and they lost their home. So We were a new family of 4. My parents with with 2 babies, and we didn't really have anything left.
Arjun Sahdev [00:09:26]:
And that kind of set the tone For, really, what was going to influence me going forward as I saw my parents kinda get back on their feet, you know, things like Economic stability was was just a key theme for me growing up. Nobody wanted to get back to the the position we were in. What what
James Glover [00:09:45]:
were some what were some of those experiences in that moment that kind of really stand out to you, Arjun? Like, you know, where you feel comfortable to share, obviously? Because I can imagine it was an incredibly difficult time.
Arjun Sahdev [00:09:55]:
Yeah. I think, so I was probably too young to remember the the hardship. I've seen I've seen Too much of the hardship anyway, and and I guess that's fortunate and unfortunate. But, I remember growing up, I was quite into art And acting as a kid, I actually wanted to be this is funny. I wanted to be a Part time car designer. I loved cars. I just wanted to draw, like, make, create, and draw, and design the most beautiful cars. And in the other half of my time, I wanted to act because I really enjoyed this this kinda sense of performing and being on stage or, You know, drama, that kinda thing.
Arjun Sahdev [00:10:39]:
And and when family would come over, impersonating members of the family, making people laugh, I I I loved the the the kind of juxtaposition of those 2 things are and and kind of performance. But when it was time to get serious, and I I say this in jest. Right? I was 16. So there's not much seriousness going on at 16. But when there was time to to kinda think about, what I wanted to do with my life, I just remember all the decisions I made around a levels, my university, My degree, the internships I did, they were all predicated on achieving this high status, Economically stable career where me and my family would be insulated from any shocks. It was kind of this defensive position that I was building. Right? And and I focused I was just laser focused on doing whatever was necessary to get, at the time, a Front office investment banking job, even if that meant ignoring some of my more natural interests At the time, you know, or or ignoring the things that I had explored while I was a child, it was it was more important for me to just Buckle down, pull my socks up, get serious, become an adult kinda thing. You know? And, Yeah.
Arjun Sahdev [00:12:02]:
I I think, that that was that was one of the key things.
James Glover [00:12:07]:
It's it's amazing it's amazing to hear you Talk with such clarity, Arjun, about this kind of, what it felt like in that moment to to To make this choice, this active choice at 16, we're we're all kinda going, yeah. 16, we think we're being serious, but we're 16. What do we know? And you're going, No. Actually, I was laser laser focused on what needed to happen here. And the language of insulating Shocks from from the family. The fact that you were too small to have kind of Experience the, kind of origination of those shocks. It just shows how deep they went into your family, that All that time later, it was still the primary focus of kind of protection for you was making sure that your family didn't experience that again.
Arjun Sahdev [00:13:02]:
I I I completely agree. And I I think when I have, you know, subsequently unpacked this over the years, It feels like it's, what your I guess, when you're growing up, my experience was what when What was important for my parents inevitably became important for me. And and, you know, my my parents were The conversations I remember around the proverbial dinner table were around, you know, Sometimes it was around getting getting to the to the end of the month in a in a good state and, You know, being able to you know, talking about the cost of uniform, you know, school kids' uniforms and things like that. And and I I remember that, the the conversation around being a stable family and living a stable family, You know, family life was was was important. So I think that had a big influence, as I said, on on my, on my decision making, it was it was this defensive position, I guess. And what it didn't do was allow me to Properly explore myself, which which we'll come to. But, but, But when what I found interesting was once I was so so let's fast forward, you know, a few years and and I'm, I'm there. Right? I think I've made it.
Arjun Sahdev [00:14:35]:
I've I've settled into the career. I've become I'm in the investment banking job. You know, I'm one of I don't know. These things are ridiculously, competitive. Right? So there there are multiple rounds of interviews and so on. You're competing against, people that are, you know, incredibly smart and and similarly well trained. And and you always have the sense of imposter syndrome, but I managed. I got there, and I was like, okay.
Arjun Sahdev [00:15:02]:
I've made it. I think I'm I'm good. So once I'm once I'm settled into the career, I I actually found myself quite disillusioned, to be honest. There was just this sense of emptiness. Like, is this it? Is this what you know, since I the age of 16, I've I've been kind of talking about this is what I'm gonna do. And And then there's me looking around on the trading floor, just really doubting, looking at, like like, people that are, you know, 20 years into their career. I'm really doubting whether this is what I really wanna do for the next 20 or 30 years.
James Glover [00:15:33]:
What was it what was it you were seeing that was then starting to create that disconnection. Because, you know, you paint such a visceral picture of, I I got focused. I beat out the competition. I had arrived. And I arrived, and I sat around and was and I looked around at what this then meant. And instead of some kind of euphoria of of the of the sense of achievement and now what might be possible in your life, you're kind of actually looking around going, Wow. That this is not what I thought it was gonna be.
Arjun Sahdev [00:16:06]:
I think it's a combination of what I was seeing and what I was feeling. What I was seeing was, at just a grassroots level, the industry was going through a number of scandals, and that is always, you know, not really a nice time, when you're young and impressionable to be in in an industry where you're experiencing those kinds of things. That was, Yeah. Tough. And then there was also this 1st big wave of financial technology, Fintech innovation that was disrupting the the scene. So that was quite alluring as well, and I think probably made made me explore the world of kind of innovation and entrepreneurship a bit more. But then what I was feeling really was this kinda sense of, as I said, emptiness, really. I was feeling this sense of I am not sure if this there's something that isn't right here.
Arjun Sahdev [00:17:07]:
I thought I wanted this, and The, the crescendo isn't as as big as I thought it might be. If that makes sense. And, Yeah, I guess I guess it really it it it it really confused me. And and I explained the way that I talk about this is kind of as a Quarter, you know, being in a quarter life crisis, which is which is how I describe it to everybody that I talk about. But, I remember I remember the a conversation that I had with with a colleague who Was, you know, kinda talking about what he wanted out of life. And, there was a There was a big, there there was a kind of I guess there was a there was a big conversation that I had with him that was quite quite pivotal for me. I I remember him talking about, Well, he he ultimately left the industry. He left he left, he left everything that he he had worked for for the last kind of, 20 years, but, I remember him saying that he could have continued.
Arjun Sahdev [00:18:23]:
He could he he could have continued and made enough money to retire in 10 years, but he really asked himself whether that was the life he wanted. He did he want to, in his words, Drag his feet. Sorry. Did he want to, in his words, drag himself into the office with concrete filled boots? That was the phrase he used, which I thought was really interesting. And and he really he said he realized what he was actually motivated by wasn't the same as what he should be motivated by to sustain a happy life in in that world. And that kind of resonated with me quite a lot. I think I think for me, it opened up this whole conversation about What am I actually doing here? What am I working for? What's the point of all of this? And And and and that led over the years to this kind of exploration into my own values, and what What the value pie looks like, really.
James Glover [00:19:31]:
Yeah. Amazing. And what were you, because that's a pretty confronting place to be in. I can imagine. I've made the dream come true. The shock waves aren't going to exist in the same way. Now all of a sudden, I'm not sure this is where I want to be, and then you're looking at somebody who is the archetype. They're 20 years in, and they could be out In the next few years with everything they need kinda tucked in their back pocket going, yeah.
James Glover [00:20:00]:
I got lead boots on. That's that's how I experienced my life, I don't want that anymore because that's not important to me to then to then be posing yourself the question of who am I and what do I want. Where did you begin in trying to answer those questions?
Arjun Sahdev [00:20:15]:
I started looking at values. Yeah. And I what I discovered was, that there are this isn't gonna come to any a surprise to many people, but, You know, what what I discovered is there are these 2 types of values that we have, and, I've I I need to I need to unpack this. There's there there are extrinsic values, and there are extrinsic values. And and the I I guess, you know, just to kind of To to level set this, the the underlying premise is is ultimately there are 2 types of values that that people go after, As I mentioned, extrinsic and and intrinsic. And we're all really what I found is we're all really a mixture of these 2 broad categories. Right? Valuing extrinsic things or extrinsic goals, things like financial success or, Stuff that will make my parents happy, will give them safety, status driven jobs, luxury goods. This This pursue this means pursuing things to kind of obtain these emotional rewards, this respect, this adulation, this validation, Whereas valuing intrinsic goals, which is kinda way more around self development and acceptance, connection, being in this state of flow, being part of a community, learning, it it's way more about pursuing things that are just inherently because they just meet our deeper needs, right, for belonging, for growth.
Arjun Sahdev [00:21:51]:
And and one of the things that I found really, really interesting and really helpful was just thinking of like, confronting this in myself and just thinking, how? What does my life look like? If my lie if my life was a pie, right, a pie chart or something, and it has different sections, And those sections are kind of there's a mixture of of of values. Right? And there's there's a there's a mixture of values based on extrinsic and intrinsic goals. Things like there's a slice for spending time with my family. There's a slice for accumulating material goods. There's a slice for money. What does that look like for me? What does that pie look like for me? And is it far too weighted in one direction? Is there too much of the pie being taken up by extrinsic things than there are intrinsic. Right? And and as I dove dove deeper into this, there's a there's a whole bunch of kind of wisdom around this and and, even science, right, from the psychology world. But there's a particular professor called, Tim Casa that speaks about, the fact that placing too much importance on extrinsic values or extrinsic goals really leads us to just feeling less happy overall and more likely to experience these kind of symptoms of of Depression and, anxiety and worry, and I I love the way that, the author Yohan Hari talks about this.
Arjun Sahdev [00:23:20]:
He, explains this in in the guise of junk values. In the same way that junk food is kind of killing our our physical health. You know, we have this these junk values, these these junk Values that place a disproportionate impact on, you know, how we're focusing too much on how we're perceived by others, what others will think, our Status, whether we're making enough money or more money than our peers, whether we have a better job than others. And and it's really starving us from meeting our our true intrinsic psychological needs. And, Yeah. I think I think that that's That's been a really
James Glover [00:24:03]:
interesting We shared a really brilliant bit of research, actually, which we've talked about a little bit in detail on on one of the previous podcasts around happiness, And that's how they did kind of a happiness study across 4 different nations. There were 2 in Europe. 1 was Japan, and the other was with North America and the US, and they they basically took populations of people and said, right. You need to really invest in your happiness, and we're gonna measure that process. And in 3 of the 4, the numbers went up, the happiness, the happiness went up. And in one of them, they didn't The one that didn't was the US. And what they what they noticed in all 3 of the other countries, the 2 European countries and the Japanese countries, that when people Started to look, go on the mission to create a level of happiness. They went from the inside out.
James Glover [00:24:51]:
So what really matters to me and how do I connect more with the people around me to my relationship with the world? What does that relationship with the world really look like? And it often became about Connection and service to others. Happiness upwards. The US, when they said go be more happy, it was like, what can I do for me me? What am I getting out of the world? Happiness went down, and happiness scores went down. So this idea of, like, Junk values. This idea of the extrinsic and in intrinsic and where the mix comes from, and almost to being the ability to be able to differentiate Values and value. So what are the things that I care about? But, ultimately, how do I feel seen and safe? And and and being able to build a level of insight into those things for ourselves is is and Can be the difference between feeling a level of fulfillment and not.
Arjun Sahdev [00:25:47]:
It's so true. And I think one of the one of the other things that A lot I I realized this later in life is just the, the The the kind of relationship that these values have within each other, how they how they are quite, how they compound this compounding nature of these things. So if we just take this Metaphor of of a pie again. If if the slices for your extrinsic values are bigger, They'll naturally take space away from your your intrinsic things. Right? So, that's what that's one kind of, thing to consider. The second is it's much easier for extrinsic values to kind of come together as a package. So it's gonna take it's gonna take space in your life away even more than from from the intrinsic things, that actually provide a positive impact, as you've just mentioned, on happiness. So if you're valuing, the slice on kind of money versus your peers, just if that slice is far too far too, big in your value pie, That will be easily coupled with valuing material goods and, you know, like, keeping up with the Joneses.
Arjun Sahdev [00:27:13]:
Exactly. All all of that stuff. And so it's naturally gonna take space away from some other things, which is which is why you see this. I mean, you see examples of that Everywhere. Right? But, being able to just think about that and confront that I think is quite scary, to be honest with you. Because,
James Glover [00:27:32]:
sorry, I didn't mean to cut across you, but I'd like, just having this kind of really this I'm having a visceral experience here of, The way that you are able to articulate the interconnection, not only between the kind of the compound effect of different types of values, but the Intrinsic connection between the the the the kind of the uncovering, understanding, and unleashing of purpose. Because For for me, all all of those elements are coming true for you to some degree at the same time in the same same moment, which is I'm looking back at the journey that I've been on. I'm understanding the things that have shaped me. I'm now starting to acknowledge, actually, what really matters To me and where there is a misalignment and I need to do something different and that something different is going to be Pretty big because it's not gonna be what I thought it was for the last, you know, half a decade of focus and effort, which is a huge investment when you are that age. Right? That's That's the fact that it's a it's a quarter of your life experience has been focused in on achieving this thing, and it turns out it's not what you want. So what what happened for you in that moment then? So once you started to confront those questions and you started to identify the pie And the pieces of the pie and what they looked like, where did that then take you?
Arjun Sahdev [00:28:53]:
So it really took me to Thinking about what success meant for me, and that was that was really the the That led to me being able to unpick and untie and shed this this identity that I'd been holding of. That was that was far too skewed towards extrinsic values and and achieving Whatever I, you know, I had I had, kind of wanted to achieve or having a job title that I had dreamt about for years. So I I had to kind of I felt like the best way of doing this was just to kind of go back to the root and start to think about what what is this, what does success mean for me, and then what What is where is that going to take me? Right? And I'm I I guess I've learned quite a lot about this and the fact that, Firstly, it's a continuous, perpetual journey, and I'm always, Like, always thinking about it and always having and always creating, like, developments around my own notions and definitions of success. And that helps from having conversations, you know, introspection, different being open to different experiences and actually feeling rather than planning. One of the things one of the biggest shifts that I've had to make is plan less. Plan less and feel. Feel in the moment. Be be what's actually going on right now? But one of the, I guess, insights I've had recently is that, is what's the what's the goal what's the kind of goal? What's the goal of this game that we call life? And I guess when I was 19, 20, 21, I would have said it's money.
Arjun Sahdev [00:30:46]:
It's material goods. But actually, I'm much more inclined to say it's quality of life now. And and because the that phrase, quality of life, is so individual. Right? It's so individual to to each person. Money is great. Money is an enabler. It's, it's, it's a facilitator, but, But if you're chasing these if you're chasing a dollar amount or these extrinsic goals, the chances of you ending up Highly dissatisfied is is extremely high, I think. So when we talk about kind of Success and definitions of success and happiness.
Arjun Sahdev [00:31:31]:
I think it's it's it's starting to think about What are the things that roll up into this idea of a good quality of life for you? And For me, one of the big things was how I feel about myself when I'm alone, When I'm by myself. Right? I guess you could say it's like a proxy definition of success almost. How do you feel about yourself when you're by yourself. Right? And and and there's so much that kind of goes into that. It's like pride. Am I living according to my intrinsic values that I've that I've just kind of tried to tried to explore? Am I treating others in the way that I would want to be treated. It's there's a whole bunch of things that go into that, but it most certainly isn't Some of the stuff that I was exploring before. So when I when I tried to think about these questions, it it led me it shed this, it shared this way, and it led me to be more courageous where I could I could start taking risks Without worrying about what people are gonna think, what they're gonna say, who, you know, who who's gonna be kind of gossiping or, the way that I look in front of people, it it just allowed me to say, I am going to I'm gonna explore something that I think would give me a lot of intrinsic value.
Arjun Sahdev [00:33:05]:
Right? Because I'm doing this for the joy of doing it. Starting starting a couple of businesses, for example, going traveling. These are all things that I did after leaving This this 1st career, and it was because, actually, I'm trying as hard as it was to exercise this idea of not really caring about how How others feel about it? It's something that I think will give me joy. You know? Give give me this in in intrinsic inherent joy.
James Glover [00:33:36]:
So, Arjun, there's something, I think really confronting about what you just shared there, which was you acknowledged that you needed to redefine what success looked like for you. But the place that you went to just really shocked me. It was like a slap around the face of, actually, How do I feel when I'm on my own? That's the measure. That's the barometer. And my brain has just kind of exploded off the back of that because How many of us actually consider the experience of ourselves when we are just with ourselves? How many of us Give ourselves even the smallest moment to just be at one with who we are. How quickly does your phone come out In any situation to create a level of distract distraction or engagement connection of a falsehood, of a false type when we have a moment. So, you know, you could be waiting for somebody to come off the tube and meet you in a place. You could be in between Teams calls.
James Glover [00:34:37]:
You could be walking down the street to go pick your child up from school. And in none of those times, you're looking out the window taking in what's going on or just what people watching in the street or, you know, enjoying the moment's walk before you connect with a loved one. It's whip the phone out, see what else is happening, see what else is going on. There isn't an alone time. There isn't any alone. And it makes me think about, you know, all of the research out there of how people numb themselves rather than confront pain. And, you know, working hard, Well, workaholic workaholism, you know, continually working, high intense rate to the point of burnout is numbing Because there's pain somewhere else, so, actually, you focus on that thing. Scrolling on the Internet, it's numbing.
James Glover [00:35:23]:
There is something that I don't want to feel or I don't want to see, so I spend my time on social media looking at and being Captivated by or distracted by other stuff and other images, this sense of reactivity to our to our experiences. And you just kind of cut through all of that by going, do you feel when you're by yourself?
Arjun Sahdev [00:35:48]:
It's, It reminds me of this quote by Pascal. All of humanity's problems stem from man's ability inability to Sit quietly in a room by himself. And this is, I guess you were just describing it. Isn't it hard for us to say, take An hour and just be with ourselves is quite it's often quite anxiety ridden. Right? It's quite painful even. But I I guess there's this romantic idea that I have about just being able to sit there without distraction And look inwards and feel good about who I am. And, actually, what if my success what if my definition of success was connected To that, to just how I feel about who I am rather than and who I am, by the way, isn't the watch I have or the car I have or the house I have. It's completely Right? It's totally disconnected from those things, but I couldn't see that when I was going after these extrinsic Things.
Arjun Sahdev [00:36:51]:
Right? It was completely different. I mean, I mean, you're you're probably everybody listening to this, I'm sure will resonate when When you buy new stuff or you achieve a new accolade, whether you're an athlete that's got a medal or whatever, you you feel great. You have An awesome, you know, sense of euphoria, but that doesn't last. There there will be other times, however, where you'll be in a flow date where, you're learning something new or you're with certain people or, you know, you were just telling me about your Your 1st, retreat that you did, and it sounded exactly like that. And and there's importantly, there's no insecurity about it. I think one of the main reasons people want these status symbols or to buy something cool is to just get these positive reactions from other people or not to let someone down. It might be their parents, their grandparents, their, their spouse, or whatever. You kind of get that insecurity about What if they don't think this card that I've got is as cool as I think? Or what if they, what if they judge me, you know, for, for for not having the latest trainers or something like that? And you feel this kind of instant disconnection with that with that new thing, or you feel you feel defensive perhaps.
Arjun Sahdev [00:38:18]:
But I think when it's something that you kind of have this intrinsic love for, the natural joy for, There there's no insecurity attached to it. You you just don't really give a shit about how others how others feel about it. So you you might You you might like, I've recently took taken up, art again. And this has been something that I didn't really I didn't really pick up a A sketchbook or a paintbrush or anything since I was 14. And I started I started art again during the lockdown because For that reason, I was like, well, I don't care if I'm crap and people laugh at laugh at the art that I create. At the end of the day, I'm doing this because it just makes me feel good. And I I inherently then feel good about who I am. So when I'm alone, I'm actually proud of The fact that I'm doing those things, and and I feel better about myself when I'm alone, and that kind of rolls up into me having Better quality of life.
Arjun Sahdev [00:39:18]:
Of course, quality of life is is encompassed encompasses many other things, but a big part of it is how you feel about yourself, I think. So it's just kind of this domino effect where where I feel like, oh, actually, I'm getting closer to the place that I think I wanna be. And and it's a it's an entire it's it just takes me down a path that's entirely different to where where I came from. So
James Glover [00:39:40]:
And so what when you think about What defines your sense of self worth now, Ajin, having been on that journey? What are the things that you you really value in yourself that you, Do you really kind of look to and connect with?
Arjun Sahdev [00:40:00]:
I think For me, it's, and this is probably, this is probably recency bias, but, I, I feel really strongly about doing something that doesn't take my life away from being with my loved ones. You know, taking I guess, let's go to that conversation that I had with with my ex colleague years ago, who realized that What he was actually motivated by wasn't the same as what he should be motivated by to kinda sustain this happy life. I really resonated with that. And I think I'm really motivated by Just being deeply involved with my family and my loved ones and kind of seeing them grow, protecting them, and Being a part of a unit, you know, and taking things that take my life away from being with loved ones in a way that isn't conducive To what? To what I think a good life is for me is, it is definitely something I don't wanna go down. And I guess take kids As an example, and this is why I said recency bias. I look to you actually, James, as someone that I think have embodied this really, really well. I think you're just a fantastic example of, of, Like, being really clear about the lines around The most important things for you, especially your family. So at the time of speaking, I'm super excited to say that my wife and I are expecting our first Child.
Arjun Sahdev [00:41:49]:
So, so I'm obviously thinking a lot about life with my child and how I kind of wanna show up and, You know, learning and observing people like you, I just think it's so important to kind of optimize for the time that We have with kids in this early, early life. Right? There's there's a window of around, I don't know, I guess, 10 years or so where you're, As a parent, probably the most important person in the kid's life where you're you're kind of their superhero. Right? And, after that, They're gonna have friends. They're gonna have eventually boyfriends or girlfriends. They're gonna get married.
James Glover [00:42:28]:
My children. Isolation. That's the way to protect them.
Arjun Sahdev [00:42:34]:
And I guess what what I'm grappling with is that, you know, we live in a culture where those kind of 10 years, those 1st precious years are typically where We're working the hardest and we're gone for most of the time. Right? So so I'm, I'm thinking a lot about how I can engineer opportunities, To have this quality, precious time with within my own life, with my family, And still be able to, to do all the things I want to do with them, take them on holidays and so on and so forth. But, I think I'm, I'm kind of That's that's been front of mind for me. That's a really important part of my current value system.
James Glover [00:43:16]:
I you know what? I guess, firstly, thank you for for even referencing me. It's it's difficult to to kind of, to acknowledge it, but I want to hold it. I immediately wanna just kind of dismiss it and move past, but I also just really want to kinda honor, you showing that and be really grateful that, the intention that I try to bring is seen by somebody else because You are right. That stuff is really important to me, and I do make active choices around it. But I also just want to kinda hold the mirror up here, Arjun, and be able to say, You just I just asked you, you know, what where your kind of sense of self worth is anchored right now, and you talked about The significance of the people that you love and care for the most, and you used the word protection again. So there's this There's this there's this kind of driving motivating factor that led you in one direction, and you've been on a process of growth and evolution, transformation. And there's still a part of that which is true, but the way that you express it now is completely different from the way that you expressed it before. Like, what that Nature of protection is and means in those interactions in your relationships is Profoundly altered because you have a greater understanding and insight to you and what matters to you and who you want to be.
James Glover [00:44:44]:
And that, for me, feels like such an empowering message that a a kind of a core theme That has shaped who we are can remain, but we can evolve around it as we grow to understand ourselves in a deeper and more profound way. And for me, I think that is testament to one of the values that I think that you just hold most closely to your soul, but also is expressed so most readily to the surface, which is just curiosity, See, you talk about learning. You talk about development. You talk about kind of, a willingness to take a chance or a risk. I just see you driven by how do things work? What does that look like? Wonder what it would be like if I did this? How would I feel if I explored that? Like, there is there's almost nothing but pure wonder in the way in which you view the world Because of the fact that you just hold this level of curiosity about what my so I now have this really big smile on my face at you turning around and saying, So when I was a kid, I wanted to be part actor, part time car designer, because to some degree, that's kinda who you are, isn't it? Like, you aren't Defined by any one thing, even though and when you show up in the world right now, you have multiple aspects of what Brings you joy and satisfaction and fulfillment in your world?
Arjun Sahdev [00:46:13]:
I, I feel the I have to say firstly, I feel the equal Sense of, Discomfort when I get complimented in that way. So I'm definitely, I definitely feel the temptation to dismiss and move on, but I, I too will, will hold of that and acknowledge that. And thank you immensely for, for that insight. And, it also made me think about this word of curiosity. And I think there's 2 things that that show up when you say that word. The first is that That curiosity hasn't really come without courage. Build being able to build this, this courage and, and the courage Came from, you know, understanding, assessing, auditing where what that values Pie really looks like and do do is that something that I want? And then and then I guess the second thing about the curiosity is I've realized, I guess I've come to realize that I did this, I wrote this actually in, in like a journal recently, now I came to realize I've always been drawn to things that kind of explore what a good life, or as I put it earlier, what quality of life Means for me. And I mean that in the broader sense, right? Of course it's very individual, but what, what I've found is the, the stuff that I've done in my life, Whether it be entrepreneurially or, from a kind of job, work, career perspective, or even just, my hobbies.
Arjun Sahdev [00:47:56]:
When I when I really blow it up and and kind of look at it from a 30,000 For a point of view, I've always found myself going back to those kinds of questions. Like, I'm exploring this because I'm trying to figure out what what is a good life what's the combination Ingredients that that that creates a good life for me. Right? What does this quality of life thing actually look like? And it's really opened up a conversation that I've had With my wife at home, I've been having with friends. And I'm just trying to have it as with as many people as possible because, when you start, I think for me, when you start to explore those facets, inevitably you're asking the question, So am I doing those things in my life? Right. I, I know that there, there are certain things here that will roll up into a good quality of life, but am I doing them? And then when you when you get to the answer of not as much, then you start to think, oh, may maybe I can do some of those things. Maybe I I should be doing, should be spending more time on on on a bit of art. Maybe I should be exploring this new course that I wanted to, or I should try, I don't know. White water rafting or whatever you wanna try.
Arjun Sahdev [00:49:05]:
Right? I use that example strategically. But, but but, yeah, I get, I guess you, once you kind of uncover those things, it, it gives you, you're almost giving yourself permission to say, well, yeah, I can try these things. Why not? You know? And I think the other thing is realizing that when you do try these things, You're not signing a contract for life. Right? Again, using this heuristic of I'm optimizing for quality of life and whatever that means for me, You're you're always questioning about what I'm currently trying, what I'm currently doing. Is it serving that definition? And if it's not, then I know that I can change, and I shouldn't be going on this on I shouldn't be climbing this mountain. Sometimes you have to go down the mountain you're on and climb up the right one, and and that's okay. It's it's it's it's the right thing to go back go forward. Right?
James Glover [00:50:03]:
And it's making me feel like there's a is it serving this definition or forming it or even reforming it? You You know, so is there other like, I have a sense of what that looks like, and I'm doing things that actively reinforce it, or I'm doing things that are Iterating it, evolving it, helping me see where the gap may be and where it may be richer. Yeah.
Arjun Sahdev [00:50:29]:
One thing that, so I I I I have a podcast that I I, That I produce as well. That's kind of all about careers. It's another interest of mine. And, again, just another thing that I just wanted to explore, and I thought, Well, I don't care if 6 people listen to this. It's just something that I'm really interested in. So That
James Glover [00:50:49]:
makes me feel listens to mine. So you're good.
Arjun Sahdev [00:50:53]:
I doubt that. But one of the, one of the most useful tools that I think helps, which is something that I guest On my podcast spoke about is, this thing called like the death bed test. Right? You've probably heard of this, but, The way that I think about it, and I've been thinking about it a lot when I come to these, these kind of junctures in my life is How can I get to a point where I'm thinking, will I regret this on my deathbed? What's my, what's that kind of list of my deathbed regrets? What do I know that I'm gonna regret on my deathbed? And if I can then explore what's going on within me, how can I kind of Looking at that list, if I form a bunch of, you know, there's a bunch of things that are on that list? What are the what are the handful of Of words or values of kind of elements that are, that are showing up there. And what can I then do today to behave in line with that? Right? To, to avoid those regrets. So I'm kind of thinking about, I'm gonna, I don't know, just let's take a random example. I think I'm gonna regret not traveling to, you know, like whatever, to, to, To Asia in my life. And then I I I've I roll that up into, okay, what is that telling me about curiosity? What's that telling me about Culture. What's that telling me about language? What's that telling me about the things that I think are important, right, about meeting new people, exploring different perspectives.
Arjun Sahdev [00:52:34]:
So now I've got a set of actions that I can do, I can work towards, and I can make decisions around that could eventually Avoid that me having that regret in the future. Now this is where it gets a bit meta because I think you always have to always you always have to Understand that those regrets will change over the course of time as well, right, as you change as a person. So so that that list of deathbed regrets Is something that you kind of work inside of, but then you also zoom out every every once in a while, and you're like, Okay. I might have changed as a person now, or I might have evolved in certain ways. So are those the same regrets? Are those as important as as they were 5 years ago?
James Glover [00:53:17]:
And that's so true in your own story and your own journey and that you've shared with us today because, you know, there is the The there's potential useful perspective in saying, hey, Arjun. Right? You've just gone to your deathbed and kind of, used that future self To shape the decisions that the current self is making, you could go back to the 16 year old self and share some learning and thinking about, actually, what's to come. But the the kind of the meta element of that is, Would you be where you are now if you hadn't experienced what you did between 16 and 25? 16, 24?
Arjun Sahdev [00:54:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's a super interesting topic, I think. And, I think I know that one of the one of the big aspects of, you know, this conversation and Previous conversations you've had and and, you know, the what's what's almost at the, one of the core pillars of the excitable Soul is kind of this idea of leaps of faith. And that's where I think that this becomes really interesting when you kinda think about it using that lens, because a yes. There are some practical leaps of faith that I think I've made. So I left banking, that's a leap leap of faith. I started a business.
Arjun Sahdev [00:54:50]:
Anyone starting a business is is taking a leap of faith. You know that. But Again, this is me being a little bit philosophical. I think what that what all of those things for me have in common is that they're exploring these more countercultural paths and questions. So I think for me, the for me, the leap of faith, the big leap of faith Is having the courage to explore the question that I was afraid of. Like, is this You know, it's like, is this how I want to live my life? Is this what how do I want my life What do I want my life to actually look like? Right? And the the The big unlock for me has just been reorientating or try and this is a journey. This isn't I say unlock deliberately because it has unlocked the journey. I haven't got to the destination.
Arjun Sahdev [00:55:47]:
I don't think there is a destination. Yeah.
James Glover [00:55:49]:
It's a direction. Right? It's a direction. Yeah.
Arjun Sahdev [00:55:51]:
And and that has been just kind of reorientating What I'm organizing my life around. And and there there have been a number of things that I think have helped move me forward, in that direction. And and one of those is just, embracing the fact that We have very limited time on this on this planet. Right? So, rather than kind of panicking That, and this, I, I'm struggling with this all the time. I panic a lot about the fact that time is finite. So I need to get everything done. I need to be as productive as possible. But I'm trying so hard now to embrace that and to say that I will never get through my, my list of achievements of, of things that I would love to get done or whatever that is.
Arjun Sahdev [00:56:45]:
And I should realize that every choice I make requires a sacrifice. So let's actually choose what matters most. Let's let's really think about that. Right? And, b, again, reorientate what I'm organizing my life around because it can't be everything. And that's you know, I think these forcing functions like having children or, you know, being in a in a loving, stable relationship, these are the things that Just push you into making making these decisions. Right. And saying, well, well, you can't do everything. You can't.
Arjun Sahdev [00:57:19]:
Yeah. Time is finite. So, yeah, I think that's that's been that's been like a big thing for me.
James Glover [00:57:27]:
Hey. I I love I almost I almost feel like we have to we have to pause the conversation, Arjun, because, Like, that would just felt like a mic drop moment for me in you being able to just kind of reframe what Leaps of faith really means to you and that kind of that sense of courage in being able to explore The question that you don't want to answer, and what and what comes out of that, and The the kind of the possibility of focus that that gives because we can't do everything. And and that, for me, couldn't be a a clearer definition of a purpose led life is that there's an abundance of things that could either distract us or tempt us, and, actually, where do we wanna put our focus? Because, well, focus goes, energy flows, right, as the, great Tony Robbins says. So I just wanna leave that in people's ears at the end of this conversation. I want them to kinda go away and really mull on on that sense of courage and and explore those questions for themselves because that for sure will lead to leaps of faith and just make more things possible in people's lives. So, Arjun, mate, thank you so much for for for being in this podcast and in this conversation.
Arjun Sahdev [00:58:47]:
Oh, no. It's it's, it's been it's been amazing. I mean, I don't know if we've got more time or So, I just wanted to pick up on something that, that you mentioned there. It made me, it made me just think about, like, why has that been such a important leap of faith for me? And it's because I I am a I I say this ingest with my friends. I say I'm a recovering perfectionist or planner. I had planned my career and my life from the age of 16. Right? It was like, okay, I'm gonna go To this university to do this course, to then get this internship, to get this job, and then 3 years later, I get promoted, and I know what path I'm on. Right? And I, and I very often still kind of slip into that planning perfectionistic mode.
Arjun Sahdev [00:59:46]:
But The reason why being having this leap of faith to say, What what do I actually want, and is this serving me? And am I living my life, or am I orientating my life around The things that actually matter to me. The reason why that I think has been so confronting and heavy, to some degree for me is because it It kind of requires you to to question whether the plan you've made and constructed, whether you need to throw that away. And that that's why I think it's been so, so interesting for me is because I, I feel like every time I'm asking those questions, I'm I'm confronting that plan and I'm saying, hold on, but we don't have to plan anymore. We can feel. Right? And and that's not a natural position for me. That's all I'm saying. It's not a natural position, but, but that that's something that that I wanted to mention. And and I think the other thing
James Glover [01:00:53]:
You're you're speaking to to kind of a central tenet around the work that we do at the excitable soul in terms of understanding A sense of purpose, which is simply minding the gaps. It's minding the gaps. And and the things that we can, We can where we can imbue life with meaning versus what is actually really meaningful to us Can be the difference between experiencing life one way and another. And so this idea of perfectionism, perfectionism is it's protective in nature. It's part of the reason why we cling onto it. There's a control element of it. There's a right element to it. There's a certainty element to it, which just isn't life.
James Glover [01:01:37]:
And so perfectionism in its own right creates a gap. It's a misalignment to a sense of purpose. And, actually, what you're describing there is Not only knowing what creates the misalignment, but actively how to course correct, Which is own it. Hey. I'm a recovering perfectionist, and what I need is to just feel, Not to control, not to protect, but just to feel, because that's gonna give me the greatest possibility of aligning with what really matters.
Arjun Sahdev [01:02:11]:
I want to expose one of the excuses I say to my, I used to say to myself, I try not to anymore is the, when I finally, I call it the, when I finally, right? So it's so easy to fall into this. It's just another control mechanism. It's like, okay. I said to myself, Arjun, when when you finally get x, y, zed, or when I finally have this, that, and the other, Then then then then then I will, you know, go on the holiday with my family, or I will, Pick up art or I will whatever whatever that is. Right? I I I'm wasting I've in many ways, I'm wasting the present for an idealized Future state. Right? And and in the process, I'm neglecting what's actually really important to me. And I think the big challenge Around that has been like, how can you design a life now to be much more congruent with what you want Your life to really look like, eat out retirement or whatever whatever that that that, that vision looks like. And and it really It reminds me of this story I love, this parable, of the it's a it's a Mexican fisherman and a banker, funnily enough.
Arjun Sahdev [01:03:27]:
It's It's, it's a lovely story. I really like this. I'll share it. So there's an American Investment banker. That was I don't know why it's an investment banker. Sounds like
James Glover [01:03:39]:
you're starting a joke that you might we might have in the pub.
Arjun Sahdev [01:03:44]:
So there's this American investment banker, and, he was taking a much needed vacation, as you can imagine. Went to a small Mexican village where there was a beautiful small boat and just 1 fisherman. The sun is is kinda beaming in the sky, and this boat had just loads of fish, loads of beautiful fresh fresh fish on it. And this banker was just impressed because he was just thinking, wow, the quality of this fish is incredible. So he he asks this, this fisherman how long it took to catch all these fish, and he said, well, it only took a little while. And, the banker then says, so why didn't you stay out longer and catch More fish. Why why weren't you more productive? Right? It sounds familiar. Right? So the the banker said sorry.
Arjun Sahdev [01:04:34]:
The fisherman, responds there when he says, well, I I think I've got enough here to support my family's immediate needs. Right? This is all they need right now. So the banker says, but what do you do with the rest of your time, if you don't mind me asking? And he's completely perplexed he's like, well, I've never understood this philosophy of life. I'm from New York. You know, I just wanna go I'm a go getter. And the fisherman says, well, I I sleep late. I fish a little. I play with my children.
Arjun Sahdev [01:05:02]:
I take a siesta with my wife, and then I stroll into the village each evening. I have a little bit of wine and I play with my friends, and I have a full and busy life. And the investment banker says he kind of scoffed at him. Right? And he says, well, I'm an Ivy League NBA banker. I reckon I can help you. So you can spend if you spend more time fishing, With that extra money, you can buy a bigger boat. And with the proceeds, with with the the profit, you can buy even more boats. You can probably have 3 or 4, and eventually, you'll have a whole fleet of of boats.
Arjun Sahdev [01:05:42]:
And instead of selling your catch, of the days to the to the middleman, you could sell directly to the restaurants or or to or to the customers. Eventually, you own you you can open your own business canning these fishes, And you could control the product, the processing, the distribution, the whole chain. And he said, of course, you would need to leave this This small fishing village, you'd probably have to move to the city. You'd run your your growing enterprise. So he's he's painting this picture for him. The fisherman says, but, sir, how how long will this take? What do you what do you think this is gonna this is gonna cost for me? He says, I think it will take you 15 to 20 years. So the fisherman looks at him and says, okay, but then what? And the American banker, he just laughs, and he says, well, that's the best part. You know? When the time is right, You would announce an IPO.
Arjun Sahdev [01:06:45]:
So your your company would be so big, you'd be able to go on the stock market and sell your stock to the public. You would become incredibly rich. I think you could make millions. So
James Glover [01:06:57]:
the the
Arjun Sahdev [01:06:57]:
fishermen's like looking into the distance, thinking millions, You think I could make millions? Okay. And then what? And so the investment banker says, well, once you've made your millions, I guess you would retire, You'd move to a small coastal fishing town. You'd sleep late. You'd fish a little. You'd play with your kids. You'd take a siesta with your wife. And then you'd stroll to the village in the evenings where you could have a bit of wine and play guitar with your friends. That's the life he's already living.
Arjun Sahdev [01:07:27]:
So, you know, it's it's kinda one of those things where it's like, well, can we design the life that we Rather than going through all these hoops to to get to a a destination, can we design a life that that we are, that we want to live in the future And do that now?
James Glover [01:07:45]:
Because there is just more than one way. There's more than one way. Always more than one way. Alright. I didn't realize that storytelling was gonna be a new, a new skill set for Arjun. But with a little one on the way, Of course, he's gonna flex that I
Arjun Sahdev [01:08:01]:
guess, curiosity. Yeah. Well, that's very
James Glover [01:08:03]:
kind. And so, yeah, Arjun, I I just I just wanna thank you again for taking the time just to connect in with me and for us to be able to share this. Like, you are, an incredible soul whose, Curiosity and courage is just shaping a really, incredible life, and it's a wonder to be a part of it. And Given that we can capture this in a moment in time before your first child is born, it feels a really just Rich moment and experience to acknowledge. So thank you for for being on the podcast, but for just being with me and, for being in the world, my friend.
Arjun Sahdev [01:08:44]:
Thank you, James. You're, again, you're you're far too kind. You you do me far too too much justice. And, I guess I just wanna say, you know, you're you're you as a as a person and what you stand for have Have give have given me a lot to think about, and you've been a fantastic example for opening a lot of these questions for me. And I think by extension, conversations that I've had with others where I've spoken about your journey And and what you're doing now, I think the excitable soul is is an incredibly exciting, forgive the pun, venture that we we all need to explore in the world. You know? The questions that you're asking people to explore are are questions that we all need to explore, I think, and Thank you for doing the work that you're doing and choosing to share, some of that that wisdom and and Experience with, people that are just starting this because there isn't I don't think there is an endpoint, a destination. It's just It's just a fantastic journey that we're on. Right? So so being able to capture that stuff is is, is really precious.
James Glover [01:10:01]:
Thank you, and you're welcome. And I will just continue to do my best, my friend. Till next time.
Arjun Sahdev [01:10:09]:
See you.
James Glover [01:10:10]:
Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the Excitable Soul podcast. If you are interested in Uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose. Come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitable soul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.