Episode #13: Kurt Lindley

The Unpredictability of Purpose: Finding Meaning in Contribution

Welcome to The Excitable Soul Podcast, where we delve into the stories and experiences that shape our sense of purpose. In today's episode, I sit down with guest Kurt Lindley, a man whose journey through life has been marked by profound moments of self-discovery and personal growth.

Kurt shares his struggles with mental health, the significance of navigating daily challenges, and the pivotal role of finding purpose and meaning.

From the exploration of faith to redefining life after loss, Kurt offers genuine insights into finding purpose. 

Join us as we uncover the power of connection, coping strategies, and the importance of introspection in crafting a life of authenticity and contribution.

Links in this episode:

Kurt’s unfinished book

Read the transcript here

James Glover [00:00:09]:

Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find Meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique Sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host, James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.

James Glover [00:00:44]:

So let's get going, shall we? Welcome back, everybody. Today, my guest is Kurt Lindley. Kurt describes himself as a South African born, Yorkshire bred, self indulgent procrastinator who puts family first, everything else second. He's a hopeless dreamer, thinker, poet, An incredibly curious learner. As this intro suggests, Kurt is cut from a different cloth, and it's one that we all could do the piece of. His deeply insightful view of the world is compelling, and this conversation is the same. Enjoy. Welcome, Kurt, to the Excitable Soul podcast.

James Glover [00:01:26]:

Amazingly, absolutely amazing to have you here. How are you feeling?

Kurt Lindley [00:01:31]:

It's a really weird question because you always think that's just should be just a simple answer of, oh, I'm feeling good, but you like often feeling many things. So, I'm feeling energized because we get a chance to have this conversation, which has probably been, like, years in the waiting. I'm privileged to be on this platform with you.

James Glover [00:01:47]:

Well, amazing. And I love the fact that you've already started with, I'm not feeling one thing. I'm feeling a whole load of things. And, we we should probably just bring our audience into the kind of the brilliance of the conversation we just had about, What's happening for you later on and your need to be able to perfect braids?

Kurt Lindley [00:02:08]:

As a YouTube sensation that I'll be looking at various ways to ensure I can put a bobble in and a plot in, a 10 year old's and create some sort of, I don't know, crazy, installation on her head in preparation

James Glover [00:02:23]:

for a down stroke. So ladies and gents, you are on a podcast that's talking about meaning, purpose, and connection, and it doesn't get any more significant than that. Like, getting the hair right is critical. That is today's top job. Yeah. So so, My friend, we've, we're we kinda create this structure on on this program, and I have absolutely no doubt that that structure is gonna get thrown out of the window by you in the course of our conversation, and that we're we're we're basically going into the unknown, the 2 of us. So lord help anybody that's listening because who knows where we may end up. But the the way in which we always kinda kick off The the the conversation really is by talking to people about the kind of the process of discovery and uncovering a sense of purpose.

James Glover [00:03:09]:

You know? Where do we find Meaning and connection in our lives, and, you know, just some of the the kind of the the moments of reflecting back on your journey and thinking about What what are the experiences that have have shaped who I am in the world? And I know it's a big question, but where would you dive in on that one?

Kurt Lindley [00:03:27]:

Well, we did talk a little bit before the call, and and and I wanna kind of illustrate this to listeners. Like, I want this conversation to be as authentic and That's unscripted, but, like, full full version of who I am during this. So I'm not trying to say anything, for any particular purpose other than I'm feeling it at that point in time. But when you pick a when you say pick a moment where things changed, I really kinda thought hard about that in advance. And I'm like, There isn't one moment. Like, my life is a series of many moments and every day has many moments in it. So I could pick out Your large, critical incidents that occurred like, you know, the loss of a father or, you know, the loss of my wife and things like that where people would go, Wow. And I'm not undervaluing or undermining what those were, but they are moments in my life, and they inform who I am.

Kurt Lindley [00:04:18]:

But one starting point I will I will take us to is actually, you know, 2017. And, finding myself on a trip to South Africa, Where I needed to go to sense check my world and be with family and be cared for. And I spent 16 hours, On 2 flights, so 8 hours from the UK to Dubai and then 8 hours from Dubai into South Africa. With my daughter, I think she was about 2a half 3 at the time. She slept most of the way, and I spent most of that trip watching every TED Talk, YouTube clip, Video, anything that talked about purpose or value or ikigai or, We're the happiest places in the world, blue zones. We're in a a a a a town in India, called Orenville, where people live This kind of like life of sharing prosperity, and they're all on similar incomes, and they all, invest in each other. And I thought I would find the answer, the purpose. I thought I would find it in all of this, and the reality was I didn't.

Kurt Lindley [00:05:22]:

What I found was lots of people navigating a journey and trying to Sometimes for their own, sort of value sharing a way to do it and sometimes for financial gain. Watch this by my book, and you'll find your purpose. So, I landed on in terms of, like, purposes. It changes. It evolves. And The the the one thing of the origin, if you've ever kinda looked to Ikigai, which is this Okinawan approach to kind of understanding purpose in life. You ask you quest ask questions like, you know, What can I do that's of value to the world? What can I do that I enjoy doing? What can I get paid for? And those sorts of things. That's been kinda modernized into a western society.

Kurt Lindley [00:06:01]:

It does, For me, I don't think it works. I don't think it matters. But if you look at its origin, it talks about how people are born into this lifestyle in Okinawa where Their purpose changes. Like, that's easiest way to say is decade on decade. So like, you know, 10 to 15 year old, you might be Helping your parents and and on you know, farm something. But in your twenties, you are now the leader of that kind of farming experience. But then when you're in and seventies, you might be the carers of young children, and your space is a kind of like a community, a pod. So when I think about purpose, I'm like, This is what my purpose is right now, and I'm acknowledging that it will change.

Kurt Lindley [00:06:39]:

And the and the the only thing I really land on is be of value.

James Glover [00:06:43]:

Yeah.

Kurt Lindley [00:06:43]:

And that's it.

James Glover [00:06:44]:

And you know what? I I'll automatically like the goosebumps on my arms. Right? I I'd like, they're up, mate. They're up. And and part of the reason why they're up is Having having done the kind of the research, having done the similar work of, like, what else is out there? What else are people saying? Like, the whole principle of ikigai, actually, It feels more like a how than a why. So it's almost kind of trying to give some guiding principles of if you want to live a life That, feels of value. Here's some things to think about, but it doesn't really talk about the underlying mechanisms of what purpose really is. And and I think that's a that's a fairly significant misunderstanding because you can can go in entirely the wrong direction. And what you've just said actually feels Really significant to me in that it's about contribution.

James Glover [00:07:34]:

Mhmm. But it's about what's the unique contribution that I am trying to make? And that can be big or small, but it's about contribution. It's contribution to something that's over and above your own self interest. It's about Contribution that some to something that is meaningful and significant to you, but has consequence to the world beyond you. And I totally agree with you that Sense of purpose can evolve over time. But the one thing that we we can almost rely upon is that there are some just Underpinning founding ideals. And these aren't values. They're founding ideals.

James Glover [00:08:08]:

They're kind of they're threads, if you like, in the experiences that we've had that shape what that unique contribution really looks like. And the fact that you immediately went there, I've done this. I've looked at that. I'm trying to find the answer. I couldn't, but here's where I've got to, which is the freaking answer. I just wanna be of value. I wanna contribute.

Kurt Lindley [00:08:31]:

I had this conversation with my partner, last night because we were talking about being of value, and kept, like, illustrating this need, the making a difference. And I was like, we have to be really careful with that language about making a difference because it might drive us to think we have to make a big difference noticed by the world. We have to be, like, you know, Pulitzer prize winning. We have to be, some, you know, climbing Everest or or what have you. And I said, I just wanna make a difference in the world around me. So whether that's to our family, our children, whether it's that's to our our parents, whether that's to Our, clients that we work with, so, you know, the the unique difference is you. You are the unique piece. Like I said, you don't have to be unique.

Kurt Lindley [00:09:12]:

You already are. And the contribution is yeah. It's it's it's the contribution to others' well-being, others' life, others' Others way of being. And I wake up every morning and I, ask myself a very simple question. How can I be more today? It's a little bit cheesy. It is the brand name of the organization that I created. But it was one of those, I needed something To start every morning with and I thought about, like, Nike have just do it. And I was like, I need something very similar.

Kurt Lindley [00:09:45]:

So mine was to say, How can I be more today? But I didn't put, like, huge kind of, like, aspirations on that. I put, a a a level of Well, that might just be when my daughter walks in the room in the morning to smile because yesterday I didn't. Or that might be To sit and have breakfast with my daughter because I didn't yesterday. I was already doing work or something like that. So it could be very simple In terms of being more and contributing, it doesn't you don't need to climb Everest. We I mean, it's not a bad thing. You can do that and raise money doing Yeah. But it doesn't you don't have to hold yourself accountable to these huge things.

James Glover [00:10:22]:

Yes. Totally agree. Love it. Love it. And I'm, immediately curious, and I know the people that'll be listening are curious of, like, how do you how do you maintain a sense of connection to that? Like, It's one thing anybody could turn around and go, oh, I'm gonna be more today, but you have internalized it in a way that, you know, fundamentally drives your behavior On a day to day basis, what what was that process like for you?

Kurt Lindley [00:10:51]:

Well, getting to it was was getting to have that thing was probably the hardest, which was, I think I was just coasting through the world. And people around me were having to be more simply to survive, you know, whether it They needed to, you know, deal with, the after effects of medication to to support them just get through a day. And I had a bad back, so I didn't sleep well. Like, so, The process of realizing that I was coasting through life was probably the hardest bit, which led to the question I now ask myself, how do I Be more, today. And then in terms of, like, holding myself, accountable on a good day, I don't have to hold myself accountable. It just happens. You know? Believe in it. It's like, be good, do good, and good will happen.

Kurt Lindley [00:11:35]:

And that generally is the process of a day. On a bad day, like, when I'm not feeling great and I have suffered with bouts of depression and maybe live with depression throughout my life, I have to kinda remind myself that It might take a bit more effort to be what I need to be today for somebody else. And I have to appreciate where that comes from. Or after that, I need to give myself space to rest and not feel guilty about it because, you know, I do also live in, guilt and shame As a consequence of other things, but equally, it hasn't worked so well this last week because I had a couple of days where it hasn't been amazing. But I myself generally, like, a 24 hour period. I'll go, right. If you're gonna have a bad day, it is a bad day. 24 hours you've got.

Kurt Lindley [00:12:17]:

Sulk the hell out of it Really embrace the sulk. Really embrace the the the nature of not feeling great, and then tomorrow, start again. Yeah. And that generally does help me.

James Glover [00:12:29]:

Yeah. Amazing. Embrace the sulk. And it's interesting that, and I might just be hearing what I wanna hear here, so, I'm gonna just kinda sense check it with you. But in a couple of the other conversations that we've had on this podcast, people have really talked about the importance of giving themselves permission. So, you know, I'm hearing you again talking about this idea of, actually, you know what? I'm not going to I'm not gonna beat myself up here for how I feel. I'm just gonna give myself permission to feel it, but I am gonna Boundaries around it. I'm not gonna allow it just to continue to play out.

James Glover [00:13:01]:

I'm gonna acknowledge it. I'm gonna give it the space that it needs, But I'm also gonna say, and at this point, that's it. We need to move on to something different.

Kurt Lindley [00:13:10]:

Yeah. It is kind of that, but like I'd say, it's, Again, I listened to to your podcast that you did with your sister. I thought it was fascinating. It really made me think, deeply about my own kind of journeys and stuff like that. And I and I listened to the questions, and you guys quite eloquently came up with really good answers that you're responding to. And I was like, I don't think I have one answer for any question. So, I I beat myself up terribly sometimes and I have to then I don't. I'm not in a position to give myself forgiveness.

Kurt Lindley [00:13:41]:

So I reach out to the family around me and tell them about what I'm feeling, and they give me The permission for forgiveness. Like, I have to have the source, that external agent, that validation.

James Glover [00:13:51]:

Yes.

Kurt Lindley [00:13:52]:

You know, my yeah. This morning with my daughter, like, she wasn't happy about something, and I still don't know what it was. And she's very, very eloquent with her thoughts. Like, you know, we've had a debate before where my daughter said, you don't know what's going on in my head. She's 10 years old. She well, she was 9 when she said it, and I'm like, right. I don't. I can't pretend that this external thing I've observed is the reason why she's upset.

Kurt Lindley [00:14:13]:

There's a wholesale internal processes going on that I don't understand, and I didn't understand them this morning. So I came downstairs. My partner was here, and she said, It's not your fault. And I was just like but you feel it is. Like, you feel the weight of the parenting and the Responsibility. And she just said, it's not your fault. And then that was enough for me to go, okay. I can stop beating myself up.

Kurt Lindley [00:14:34]:

So sometimes I need someone else to help me Stop beating myself up. And other times, no. I have to call it and go, you need to you need to crack on. You need there's there's business that needs to be done. There's people that need you to be present. You you need to step into this. So yeah.

James Glover [00:14:49]:

And how do you, it feels to me like you've just kind of walked over something and made it sound like it was as simple as, you kind of boiling an egg, which is the kind of the differentiation between knowing when You can do it for yourself and when you need to reach out, and the willingness to be able to reach out. Like, how do you how do you figure that out? Like, how do you know which you need and when. And at what point did you, become skillful enough, and skillful is probably the wrong word, Feel safe enough to be able to reach out to the people around you to just go, I'm not getting myself out of this.

Kurt Lindley [00:15:29]:

Mate. Again, multiple multiple points. I remember being at university and, really struggling. I didn't know at the time that it was depression. I remember getting really, really drunk. And then we went into the nightclub. It was, just on campus where we were. And it was terrible music, terrible music, and I couldn't coach.

Kurt Lindley [00:15:47]:

I came out And I made a sign and I put it on my door and it was like, if you wanna listen to good music, come here. And I stood on Stone Roses and I had it blaring loud. And I just sat Rocking away like dancing away in my room on my own. I was like, if I reflect back, that's the first point at which I was like, that was me experiencing something that I couldn't I couldn't understand. I couldn't rationalize. I couldn't work out. And the way to do it was through alcohol, which is not a good way to do things. I have since learned, but if you kind of, like, look at events that are through your life, you'll go there's a point at which that it's dangerous to go the other edge.

Kurt Lindley [00:16:23]:

Like, if you I now know when things are at a point that I need an external agent. And what I'll do is I'll often say, I don't need you to do anything. I just need you to know this is where I'm at. And that's enough because what we have is really, really caring and helpful people around us. And what they don't want is to for us to be upset. And what they try to do is help solve the problem or make things easier. And that can be worse Sometimes because it takes responsibility away from us or it stops us from feeling the thing. And if you look at psychology and and and Suppression versus reappraisal and expression.

Kurt Lindley [00:16:59]:

We know that suppression is bad and reappraisal reappraisal and expression is is really healthy. So I would prefer To express my pain if I have it or my doubt or my depression or whatever it is because I know that there's almost, like, a euphoric moment that comes after it. It's like, got a friend who's really religious and will he lives in Australia now. We barely talk. But if I'm really struggling, I'll send him a message about it. And he's the only person Now we'll accept this return response from, anybody else says this to me, I will not respond very well. So I know who to ask For what help and when, he responds with, this too will pass. That's it.

Kurt Lindley [00:17:37]:

Like and it's like, right. I can take it from him. I can't I can't take it from anybody else. So again, there's no there isn't one answer to any of these situations. It's just knowing which is what do I need at that point in time to allow me to be the best I can be, which might not be amazing. It's just the best I can be Yeah. For those around me and for myself.

James Glover [00:17:56]:

Yeah. And I love the The really subtle language that you used a minute ago is, I now understand. I I now understand. There's something in Being able to build that awareness and that insight into these kind of moments and these choices and what works and what doesn't. But you said something right at the very beginning, and and I'm I'm kind of want to loop. It feels like there's a connection between what you're sharing and where you started at the at the beginning, which is the the everyday moments that create meaning for you. So I asked this walloping big question of people when they kindly agreed to come on to this podcast of, You know, one of these moments that have defined who you are, and you went, yeah. There have been plenty of those, but, actually, there are plenty of everyday moments too.

James Glover [00:18:37]:

So I'm hearing you talk about I now understand, and I'm hearing you talk about there are everyday moments where I find meaning in connection. How do you how do you identify? How do you see? How do you know? Have you been able to pay attention to where the everyday moments are?

Kurt Lindley [00:18:54]:

So we have talked about the fact that, I have dyslexia, and that might be part of this. My partner also, is autistic and has ADHD. And we met a couple of years ago. So we've only been together about 3 years. And when we first met, It took a little while, but she then had the confidence to share with me. She she felt the way that I operated might suggest that I have, autistic or ADHD tendencies. So when you say, how do I pay attention to all these things? I don't know if I can't pay attention to these things. They are just present in everything that I do, And my challenge then is to, filter or distill or try and, sift out because there's almost too much stimuli.

Kurt Lindley [00:19:38]:

I'm not careful. I'll become overwhelmed by just every day. So I've I've What's the difference between my me and my partner is I have found so many coping strategies that allow me to successfully get through a day And work well and build a business and make some money as a consequence and all that, whereas she's still on her journey and work It's really interesting watching how both of us approach the same challenge and one might have a different set of coping strategies. So I I don't know. I if I can't notice. So what I try to do is is what can this teach me? That is the question. When it occurs, what can this what is this what is this giving me? Otherwise, I'm missing something that might be extremely valuable in in in that day.

James Glover [00:20:26]:

Yeah. And this concept of kind of like filtering, but also just that comment of I I could become overwhelmed. It just makes me think of noise, like white noise, like, kind of happening. And how do you how do you quieten the white noise, or how do you filter out the white noise? And I can can imagine that there are plenty of people who are listening to this going, well, I feel I'm I'm feeling like there is a kind of a bombardment. Whether or not that's Something that I've instigated unwillingly in my life in terms of, you know, kind of habits and behaviors in certain interactions or whether or not that's just something that's unconscious or, you know, may Come from, yeah, come from anywhere. That that there's an active engagement there for you of saying, Because of some of the stuff that that that I have going on for me, I actually need to pay attention in a different way and kind of Change the channel a little bit. How how have you learned to do that? What are some of the coping strategies that you've created in order to be able to do that?

Kurt Lindley [00:21:26]:

So we're gonna appreciate I didn't know that I was creating coping strategies as a consequence of dyslexia or anything else that I may have that I'm undiagnosed about. I just was going through life. For a long time, I was just trying to find a way to navigate life in a healthy and safe manner. You know, there was a period of time in the in the early The 2015 where, maybe 14, 15 where I felt very apathetic about life. Like, there was no high or low. And it was because there was just so much that I was paying attention to. I didn't know what was the right sort of stuff to pay attention to. So I started to create my own life hacks that, again, helped me navigate stuff, you know, whether it was training or whether it was work or whether it was, you know, Whatever it was.

Kurt Lindley [00:22:13]:

So it's only now in the last couple of years having met my partner, that I understand all of those Things that we're putting in place are coping strategies for the way that my brain operates. So I I my diary is is like without it, I can't can't function. So my diary is blocked out hour by hour, But even to the point of I block out time for a break, time for lunch, I'll look at it over the week and go, that looks like a really busy week, where am I having a half day? Or where I'm putting a run-in? Where where am I taking time for a walk? So I have to plan in That that decompression time be the best. So there's no point working 8 or 10 or 12 hours if you're not being the best. It's better to work 4 hours and be the best, and then You'll you'll have a more productive thing. So, you know, I I I have little lists. I don't have a technology piece for that. I have these little squares of scrap paper that I have on the kitchen counter that are a list of things that need to be done in that particular day, and that is a way to navigate the day.

Kurt Lindley [00:23:17]:

Everything goes in a plastic wallet. Anything that's important, it gets printed off and I write all over it. And it goes in a plastic wallet and it goes on a on the side, Near my near my desk. So there are just multiple, multiple strategies layered on top of each other to allow me to navigate Like things, it you know, it it's to other people, it's overwhelming. But to me, it helps me from being overwhelmed.

James Glover [00:23:39]:

Yeah. The do you know what? The real beauty of this, Keh, and, you know, you started by talking about wanting to be kind of really authentic in the conversation, is, It is exactly that. It's about you you've been able to start very, very quickly by going, I I look for and find meaning in contribution. Like, that that's what really matters to me. And how do I do that? And then really quickly, we're kind of, like, peeling away the layers and being able to go, Well, the practicalities of being able to try and make a contribution in all the different ways in my life have, have meant that I have either, consciously or unconsciously, just had to figure out ways of trying to healthily take the journey of life to some degree. And, and, actually, in moments of reflection, starting to notice, what do I really need in order to be able to do that? Whether that's within me or whether that's from other people Or whether or not it's just scaffolding that I put around my my week or my time in order to be able to function in the way that I know I need to function. And and for me, this is a a a kind of really beautiful illustration for those that are listening around the practicality of being able to go, yeah, I find Meaning here, and there is the kind of the emotional conviction and connection to something that is about service beyond myself. But Here's what the reality of that looks like on a day to day basis.

James Glover [00:25:03]:

Here's a reality of a journey and being able to make that a reality in my life on a day to day basis.

Kurt Lindley [00:25:09]:

It It's, I think it's important to to to to show that line of sight because we could talk philosophically. We could talk here, You know, really deep about meaning and stuff like that. Like, you know, I've been spending sort of probably about the last year on a Philosophical kind of journey, once a month being on a kind of like a course that's helped me better understand what what 9 what 1800 or 1700 or 1600 or even earlier philosophy It would mean in the 19 and 2000, you know, how we translate that. And that's great, but it sometimes comes down to, like, simple sentences, which is like, For me, it's about actually being selfish, but not at the expense of others. So what that means is if I can look after me, I can look after you better. Me first so I can look after you. Now other people find that language really difficult because they're like, what? You're you're putting yourself first. Yeah.

Kurt Lindley [00:26:01]:

Because if I'm always putting myself second, I cannot be what you need. I'm always gonna be just a little bit less than what's required, and then I'm gonna get frustrated. And you're gonna get a poor service whether it's Partner or a child or or a or a or a client, and and at some point, you're gonna get frustrated. So what I'm saying is, no. This is me. This is what I need to do, But I'm not doing it at the expense of our relationship. I'm doing it so you can give the most to it. Then I think in terms of So practicalities, don't underestimate the power of every interaction, every interaction, whether it's the crossing lady on the way to school, Whether it's a nod or a wave at somebody that you're walking past on the street, or whether it's a deep conversation with your partner, or, a client conversation.

Kurt Lindley [00:26:41]:

And and then that takes me into the kind of business world in terms of the way I operate. I I listened to a number of Simon Sinek talks before Really distilling how the business model for for for Bmore works. And, one of the things that stood out to me about Simon Sinek in this particular speech was Only work with people that get you. And I was like, this is really interesting. And what he's trying to say is if you work with Somebody who's they they bought you in to do some work, but they don't get you. You'll spend most of your time convincing them rather than doing the actual work. And that was, like, straight away. That was saved my business, like, so much time and energy that I now have very good conversations with clients in advance of signing any paperwork to make sure that they get me in the way I operate.

Kurt Lindley [00:27:27]:

And if they don't, I'll offer them an out out to talk to somebody else or work with somebody else, or I'll give them a set of risks that they're buying into based on If you are struggling with the way that we operate and this doesn't work for you, and and we start to do more of what you're desiring rather than what I believe is right, Here's these risks that you need to sign up to, but they're not what we would suggest is the approach to take. So that's really helped. So I could I could probably list, you know, out of the 100 clients that I might have, let's say, 70 to 80 of them are more than clients now And, trusted advisers, and we are reciprocal mentors, and we are supporters of each other in multiple ways because I've gone, This is this is right for me or isn't right for me. Or this is the way to operate and this is the risk associated. Or this is, you know, and it's just making sure that we I know it's a model trade. Like, model trading is is Yeah. Is what is the lifeblood of of operating, I think.

James Glover [00:28:23]:

Yeah. Love that. Love that. And, I really love the the kind of the the comment around don't underestimate the significance of every interaction. And and that that's personally powerful to me because of the 2 of us and the relationship that we formed in that We were in an environment where we had to share something that was significant. And I and I talked a little bit about, Christopher Reeve and Superman and, Yeah. And and, and a and a black and white photo that is still on my wall here. Actually, I look at it every day.

James Glover [00:28:58]:

And the fact that I kinda received it, when I was when I was 7, and, you know, on the back was written these words from Superman about, you know, the fact that I'd been a good boy and that been looking after my mom and my brother like it was so I was so young, my sister wasn't even mentioned in it, and that he was gonna have a word with his friend father Christmas and see what you could do and, you know, keep it. And I I was freaking 15 before I realized it was my dad's handwriting, and I was completely devastated. But When I when I shared this, you then came up to me, not long after, and you took off your wedding ring and you showed me what was inside, which is the kind of the embossed Superman symbol. And, and, I was with my partner who is now my my wife, and I came back. And I just, Like, I just gushed over the the I just gushed over the just the beauty and the simplicity, but the significance of this, of this of this marking, and she remembered. And, and when we then, got married, I had the wedding rings, and I hadn't realized that, you know, a few a few days before, she'd robbed the wedding rings, And that she went and got mine embossed with the, with the Superman symbol. And then, you know, just the universe doing its thing. We then saw each other Probably another 5 years after I got married.

James Glover [00:30:20]:

So we're probably talking, I don't know, 8 8 years maybe in between those those interactions At a at a, like, a conference trade show, thousands and thousands of people, we see each other. Didn't even know we're both gonna be there. And I'm like, Kurt, look. Look. They didn't even talk about anything. Look, Kurt. Look. And you were like, oh, I so the simplicity of that interaction, the connection that that then created between the 2 of us.

James Glover [00:30:46]:

And we don't speak regularly. We haven't connected in ages. But there's just something really magical, I believe, between us that shared that one tiny moment has fostered.

Kurt Lindley [00:30:59]:

That's what you just illustrated there. And we need to be okay with that journey in a sense of I value that interaction on so many levels. You think we're in a room of about Ten or 12 people all sharing fairly deep and meaningful stories that still you know, stay with me some of those stories. But how many of the people in that room, If we saw across a busy conference floor, would we embrace after 5 years or 8 years of not seeing each other? And we did. So that's the thing about, like, don't underestimate every interaction because in that interaction, there might be a lesson That comes later. So you at the time were working for the energy project. And I'd stumbled across it at the same time through a different avenue. And I really used that methodology or idea of following your energy to operate what at the time was a really challenging part of my life, which was to work following your energy.

Kurt Lindley [00:31:54]:

So I didn't Use the the the the must that was created within the work that you were doing. But had I not noticed you, had I not noticed that, had I not, I might not have leaned into this way of operating. So what you might not know, and this is interaction with me or interaction with many other people, is you might still be teaching them the lessons When you've gone. Those lessons might come a lot later, and then they might be so helpful. If they never see you, they never get to tell you. But I would say actually, There was some sort of, like, unintentional connection over some of that stuff where I managed to do really well lot of a really difficult situation because I managed to follow my energy. And I it might be simply because I met you at that point in time. You popped up talking about the energy project, And the energy stuff kind of really meant what are my needs at that point in time.

Kurt Lindley [00:32:43]:

There was a phase in my life where I needed that. And then suddenly, we're we're here again together connecting, and it's like There there could have been someone you met yesterday or the last person you talked to will will be important to you at a different point in time or or you'll be important to them at a different point in time.

James Glover [00:32:58]:

Yeah. Yeah. Love I genuinely am feeling pretty emotional right now. I just wanna kind of call that out. Like, I I feel I feel, gratitude deep, deep sense of of of gratitude, of love, really, that, that we're able to kinda just openly share the the impact of those kind of experiences and the significance of them, but but also be able to acknowledge and hold that we don't live in each other's pockets. And so you can have that depth of experience And it not be based on frequency of interaction because it matters, because it's meaningful.

Kurt Lindley [00:33:36]:

So Sometimes we feel guilty, don't we, because we haven't Connected with somebody for a long period of time. And I'm like, No, I don't want to feel guilty. Again, I had this conversation with my partner. She finds it strange that I have lots of people I call a friend That I might be once in 5 years. And I'd be like, well, I think they are my friend because of the depth of the connection. Like, we don't know each other's birthdays, but we know each other, Like, deeper. That's really important for me to live in in in in in knowing that that's okay And not feeling guilt that haven't, like, remembered your kid's birthday or, like, you know, what your surname is.

James Glover [00:34:12]:

Name. I'm a shocker with names. Right? So I've got I'm really lucky. I've got a very, very close circle of of friends. And I've gotta be honest, everybody's had children. I definitely don't know their birthdays, And I do know their names, but I'm also dyslexic. So if I'm kind of in the moment, I can forget their names. But I love these people.

James Glover [00:34:31]:

I love these people deeply, And and I'm I'm really, I'm really hoping that my lack of retention around the names of their children doesn't make them feel like I don't care about because I would literally walk in front of traffic for them or their children. So yeah. So, Kurt, just while I kind of re try and regain my composure a little bit, you know, we've talked quite a bit about the kind of the uncovering of the kind of the meaning And we've talked a little bit about the kind of understanding of it to some degree. But there's a bit that always really lights me up in these conversations around The kind of unleashing a sense of purpose, you know, that that that, internal faith and belief in what is possible, the kind of The courage and the clarity to to go into the unknown, and how people have experienced those moments or, I just able to to to think about what moments are potentially to come. And I I wondered if there is there is something from your perspective there that kind of just Feels true. Where have those those moments where you've kind of gone with faith and belief into the unknown?

Kurt Lindley [00:35:46]:

Before I talk, I would I would say is that listeners to Remind them to go and listen to your 1st episode between the conversation you and your sister because I think the 2 of you shared some great statements and quotes around this that Really sat with me, and I was like, yeah. Like, I would wish I could have said those things. So I would definitely invite people to go back and listen to that because it is it's it's good. It's good. It's good listening. And it's so natural. Like, it's a tennis game. That's really natural between the 2 of you.

Kurt Lindley [00:36:15]:

But when I was taught I was thinking like unleashing. Unleashing sounds like it was, like, held in. I think, for me, I never was All of who I could be because I didn't know that I should be. I remember starting out in Korea, let's say, and going, I had an interview and somebody said, oh, what's your aspirations? It was working at a leisure center. And I said, oh, I want to be the best at this particular job. And then I want to move to that job and then not that job. I just want to be the best in that job before I move to it. And it was this it was kind of like I had this kind of free thinking of like yeah, you just you just you just grow and move.

Kurt Lindley [00:36:56]:

And then I got a job where I felt That I was contained, almost like, yeah, we we'd like you to play here in this field curve, but it's this narrow And you can only go this far. And at that point, I start to lose this sense of kind of like capability. I didn't realize was like over a 10 or 11 year period that I was losing parts of who I possibly could be. And the conformity was gaining ground and the ability to be Forward thinking or identifying different ways of doing things had got too much for me. So I had to deliberately step out of it. So I went and did a master's in psychology and Found ways to kind of think differently, but I think a really significant moment in terms of this, and it is worth mentioning. So, my late wife, When she passed away, I had to recreate what life was like. Now that was, So 6 years ago now, but those 1st couple of months, I had to sort of say to myself, Well, I need to get dressed.

Kurt Lindley [00:37:59]:

So that's number 1. Because I can't walk around, like, in my underwear or my pajamas. And I need to get my daughter Oh, and I need to feed her and I need to get her to childcare. There were some very rudimentary things that needed to be done. And then once those things were kind of like being done, it was like, well, what I don't want to do is die Not being all of what I possibly could be, but I still didn't know, like, who I was really. I I thought I'd lost who I was. I'd lost But maybe I never even really knew who I was because I'd been masking for so long or disguising or being a chameleon, a social chameleon, whatever it was. So, yeah, 2016, 2017, and we all sort of, like, peering of just going, why not? Why not? So it took a while to ask myself, like, the why not question, and then, you know, I got maybe redundant.

Kurt Lindley [00:38:57]:

Best thing that ever happened to me because of the the process of being made redundant was I'd gone for an interview for one of the jobs that was remaining. And, not many people know this, but I got a phone call from the person that was gonna share whether I got the job or not. And I didn't take the phone call because I needed to know what my answer was Before I got theirs, so I I I didn't take the call, and I I I went and did a gig. I was doing a training gig. And all the way through, I was like, what do I want? Do I want the job or not? I need to make that decision before they tell me. And I realized that It was it was a great job. It wasn't the job for me, and it was going to confine who I was. So I got the phone call and they said, oh, you haven't got the job.

Kurt Lindley [00:39:38]:

And I was like, that's okay. How are we gonna offer you this? And I was like, I don't want it. I'm like, you what? I was like, no. I'm I'd rather be in the wilderness. Why? Because when you're in the wilderness, you work it out. And people said to me, that must have been a real courageous thing or a leap of faith or, like, wow, you're brave. And I was, like, no. It was just the most sensible Decision I've ever made.

Kurt Lindley [00:40:00]:

It was the most it was the right decision. And then I just spent, like, the next period of time conjuring up What was possible? And it comes back to, like, you know, I'm not saying this is how everybody should operate or everybody should, but I don't necessarily believe in leaps leaps of faith. I don't necessarily. If it's a leap of faith, I probably got something wrong along the way. I should have made the the gap smaller, so it's a step. So I have this kind of way of operating is is is to be good, do good, and good will happen. Now to be good is I need to be good at my craft. I need to be good as a human.

Kurt Lindley [00:40:35]:

I need to do good. So I need to do good jobs with people or I need to do good in the world. And those 2 things drive the 3rd, which is good will happen. So there will be people that will say nice things about you as a consequence of being good, Both in terms of expertise or craft or in terms of kindness and generosity. And therefore, like this Circle economy. It will come back down. Somebody will say something, they'll say something, they'll say something, and, and, you know, try and balance this between how this operates in business and how this operates in life like, you know, don't be a dick. I'm sorry for using that phraseology on your podcast.

Kurt Lindley [00:41:12]:

I'm gonna beep it out, but if you can operate like that, then For me, there aren't necessarily leaps of faith. There are just things that make you feel uneasy because it Feels outside of what you've done before, but that doesn't mean you can't learn it, explore it, talk to people who've done it before, Go pay attention to people who are doing it now. You know? So that by by the time it arrives so, for example, myself and a colleague have potentially got a gig in Kenya In, in October, by working with people that English isn't their 1st or even second language, we're working with people that have got educational standards of varying degrees, And we're delivering a product around the science of teaching and learning. Right? Is that leap of faith, or is that a faith in us? And if we don't think we're capable, what do we do to make sure that we are capable? So it's only ever, what do I need to do to be what they need from me?

James Glover [00:42:12]:

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And, like, I I am just smiling from the inside out here, Kurt, because, I I knew that this conversation and in this conversation, you would be able to bring an incredibly unique perspective. And the fact that you're just going, I don't believe in leaps of faith Because I'm like, oh, wow. Wicked. Like, that's that's both confronting and liberating in equal measure for me because, actually, I love the language of leap of faith. And, and, and it's made me sit here and go, why, why do I love the language of leap of faith? What does it actually mean to me? Because you've just been able to explain really beautifully what it means to you.

James Glover [00:42:52]:

And it and I think it boils down to 2 things. It's language that for me expresses both, excitement and courage. Alright. So that that's kind of why that's why the terminology lives with me. But when you were when you were describing, like, the The understanding and the sense making that you have around that, what that kind of conjured in you, the this idea of, like, Grow and move. Grow and move. Grow and move. Grow and move.

James Glover [00:43:21]:

It was just it kind of intuitively in you. Like, I'm gonna grow, and I'm gonna move to something else. I'm gonna grow, and I'm gonna move to something else. And there were moments where that felt like you were being shut down. But, actually, what was your reaction to that? You know, in the in the most severe way, you went, Actually, when I think about the future, I don't want to die and not have really been able to understand what I was capable of, What contribution I could have made. And for me, that's where we are a 100% aligned and on the same page is that There's a kind of a past, present, future element to purpose for me, which is when you're connected to something that is That is really meaningful. What it enables you to do is kind of go into the future, imagine a future, and And ask yourself questions about what does it take to make that future a reality, and then create a sense of not destination. It's not goal and outcome.

James Glover [00:44:18]:

It's just direction. How do I go after it? And the fact that you were able to ask yourself the question around, do I want this job or not? Because, actually, you were, What do I really want? What really matters to me, and how do I get more of that? Now going into the wilderness Fine. I don't need to have the destination. I'm happy to go into the unknown because it's really clear to me that the alternative is not what really matters.

Kurt Lindley [00:44:46]:

And that's it. I always let that's the the word is the alternative. Like, the alternative don't bear thinking about. You imagine going to work every day, not liking your job, Working in what might be a toxic environment or even just a place where just shaves a bit of you off every day. You get a good income. Got a good salary. It's not far from home, so you don't drive far. That's not a reason to stay.

Kurt Lindley [00:45:06]:

Like and I know it's hard for people to make a change because they've got Commitments in terms of mortgages or, you know, lifestyles. A friend of mine recently sold his business that made he's made millions. He talked to me at this party and he's talked to me about a lifestyle prison. He said, just be careful of the lifestyle prison. I was like, well, what's this? He's like, Creating a life that requires this income, and then you can't get away from it. And I was like, well, for me, that I don't I don't necessarily have a lifestyle prison because The the the business model, and it's had to evolve because now I'm in in a relationship. I have a partner. We between us, we have 5 children, so it's it's not a cheap gig.

Kurt Lindley [00:45:45]:

The business model is very simple, though. It's like, can I pay the bills that need to be paid? Can I, as a consequence, the work I do, be a better parent And and and partner? Can I walk my daughter to school? And can I afford 1 holiday a year that's like a good holiday? You know, and everything else is a bonus, having clients that are aligned with you. So back to that kind of like leaps of faith, I really struggle as well to see beyond the next week. Like, I don't even know what's happening tomorrow until I look at my diary. So it's really I I don't know what the destination is. I just know that to serve this moment The next few moments, these are the kind of alterations that I need to make and the directional change that that I need to to put in place. And my partner is really good at helping me sort of look a bit further afield because we need to do that. Otherwise, like, How are we gonna actually bring our worlds together in a way that we want to without a plan? I'm like, yeah.

Kurt Lindley [00:46:49]:

We do need to actually do that. So You can't do this alone, and that's why having these people around you, these good people around you can can help you because you can't don't pretend that you can do all all this on your own.

James Glover [00:47:01]:

Yeah. You know what, Kurt? That feels like a really great place for us to pause this conversation that none of us can do this on our own. And I I think that Just some of the incredible insights that you've been able to share in this conversation. You know, actually, there's meaning in every day. It's not just about the big things that really happen to us in any given moment. The kind of the sense of, needing to be able to reach out and connect with with other people, which we kinda talked about at the beginning of the conversation, and is where we've kind of closed the circle now. The They're just the acknowledgment that there were moments of apathy. There was just too much happening, paying attention to too much.

James Glover [00:47:41]:

How do you kinda quiet the noise and see through all of that in a way to be able to, to to move forward really purposefully. The kind of the sense of, I love this idea of be good, Do good and good things will happen. And in the middle of all of that, you are growing and moving, growing and moving. And I don't know why, but I'm thinking Muhammad Ali, and I'm seeing a bob and a kind of a weave playing out in that moment. Mate, it's been a just really incredible Opportunity to have this conversation with you and, and just share these experiences and feel feel the sense of connection between the the 2 of us Again, so thank you for for taking the time to come and be a part of the podcast.

Kurt Lindley [00:48:21]:

No. It's absolutely, value being asked. I think one final thing that I might say is, Anything that I've described or anything that I've talked about is just one way of doing things. It's not one way. And I wouldn't, like, impose it upon anybody to follow that path. But what I would say Suggest is there's plenty more podcasts that you're gonna be doing, and there'll be people with lots more insights that worth listening to. So, listen to the broad spectrum, and then choose one more works for you.

James Glover [00:48:45]:

Amen. Brilliant. Thank you, my man.

Kurt Lindley [00:48:48]:

Thank you.

James Glover [00:48:50]:

Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitable soul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.