Episode #12: Sam Whale
Unforgiving Minute: Learnings in Leadership, Intuition, Purpose and Creating Legacy
In this episode, we sit down with Sam Whale, co-founder of Unforgiving Minute and a prominent figure in shaping the UK sports system.
Sam delves into his journey of self-discovery, reflecting on his childhood experiences that have shaped his core values and decision-making. From his emotional volatility to finding purpose through leadership and intuition, Sam shares profound insights into the transformative moments that have impacted his life.
Join us as we explore the themes of curiosity, activism, and the importance of patience in pursuing long-term goals.
So, sit back, relax, and join us for a insightful conversation about finding meaning and connection in life.
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Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find Meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique Sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host, James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:44]:
So let's get going, shall we? Welcome back, everyone. Today's guest is Sam Wale. Sam is cofounder and managing director of Unforgiving Minute, a leadership development consultancy focused on providing great development that creates real change, If that's what people want. Over the past 10 years, Sam and the team have partnered with organizations such as the Football Association, Godolphin, Shell, Selfridges, Whitbread, Lambeth Council, Trafford Housing Trust, Sport England, and Southampton FC. Sam has a history of shaping the UK sports system in its golden era. In 2008, Sam joined UK sports coaching team ahead of Beijing. The following 6 years would be life changing for him, working alongside some of the best coaches in the UK with an unrelenting focus on delivering medal success in London 2012 and beyond. Sam led the elite coach program, the world class performance conference, and the Mentor Development Initiative, all to support the succession of people in the high performance system from coaches to performance directors, CEOs, and NGB boards.
James Glover [00:01:57]:
Beyond unforgiving minutes, Sam is a nonexecutive director for Wheelchair Basketball, and he chairs their performance committee. He lives in Brighton with his partner, Eric, and takes every opportunity to travel to new places. I love this conversation, and I'm sure you will too. Welcome, Sam, to the Excitable Soul podcast. Wonderful to to have you with us today. How are you feeling?
Sam Whale [00:02:20]:
I'm feeling good. Thanks, James. It's good to be with you, and thanks ever so much for inviting me on.
James Glover [00:02:27]:
Yeah. My genuine pleasure. As you can imagine, I've been excited for this conversation. We had the almost rare opportunity of kind of being together earlier on in the week. And so it feels like a real treat to be with you twice. And now to be able to share a conversation with a whole bunch of others as well is absolutely amazing. So we always start in the excitable soul with with really just getting people to think about Where and how they uncovered a sense of purpose for them. What are some of the experiences that shaped who they are in the world? And I'm just wondering if there are any that immediately spring to mind for you.
Sam Whale [00:03:08]:
Yeah. It's, It's nice to be bookending my week with you. And thanks for the warm up conversation on Monday. James, it's always lovely just to Spend some time with you and have a conversation. So I'm really delighted to kinda dig into this. And true to form, you've you've kind of posed some fairly Hefty questions, which is definitely making me think. I guess in answer to your first question, Like, I suspect, for many people, you know, what are the experiences that really have impacted you or shaped you or has directed in terms of your sense of purpose. I think they tend to be kinda early on experiences in life predominantly.
Sam Whale [00:03:48]:
And so when I reflect on that question, you know, I think about I think about my upbringing. I think about kinda what was going on for me as I was kind of learning a sense of self identity and who I was and Learning about the world. And and so for me, kind of growing up in a very rural existence, you know, growing up in the middle of Wales On a very large hill, about 1500 feet above sea sea level, surrounded by largely nothing, Which has its kind of pros and cons. Right? So in so many ways, it kinda gives you time and space to be To to get used to being on your own or with just a very small amount of people. And I think that That kind of existence growing up until I was, I guess, 18 going off to university, in some ways, was quite a protective Existence and quite privileged existence. But I think what it gave me was a sense of a kind of freedom, of independence, of Being comfortable in my own company, because I didn't have all the kind of the stimulation around me of of kinda living in a village or a town or a city. And and and on the other hand, when I reflect on that, I didn't have all of that other stuff that kind of lots of people grow up with. So I think, I think it took me a while to kinda catch up with other parts of life in some ways.
Sam Whale [00:05:12]:
But I think I think living a bit of a rural existence is Is it a a kind of a key element to shaping kinda who I am and and what's important to me?
James Glover [00:05:23]:
I'm I'm I'm curious that that kind of, there's almost like a a tension or what feels a bit like a paradox, really, in that, you know, you describe you describe that kind of sense of wide open space and, and use the word protection, actually. You know, it's quite to the environment. And I can imagine that there are people listening going, dear god, that's frightening, like, being Being, a, alone in that way and, b, having that much space, like, how do you cope with that? So I I guess I'm, I'm I'm wondering, know, with the with the power of of of hindsight on being able to kind of reflect, how how did that shape Your ability to take that transition into university and experience a different life. And how does it continue to to shape your who you are today?
Sam Whale [00:06:16]:
Yeah. To be honest, I think it didn't prepare me for, the rest of life that that followed At all. But but what it gave me was a sense of, appreciation For not only the kind of some of the practical stuff around kinda nature and the world around us, but It also gave me an appreciation because I was kinda growing up kind of on a farm, or surrounded by farmland. And, therefore, You know, a big part of my upbringing in childhood was was, I guess, the the kind of the sport that I did for a for a big Part of my life, which was riding horses, training and riding horses. And, with that comes huge responsibility. You know, so from from a very young age, I I guess, I was taught the the importance of responsibility of of others. And others being kind of, You know, not just the the people that were around us, our friends and family, but responsibility to kinda look after and maintain kinda animals. In this case, kinda horses, which Take up a lot of time.
Sam Whale [00:07:24]:
So I think I think that that sense of kind of growing up kind of on a farm where you kind of You kinda chipped in. You know? You you didn't really have a choice about whether or not you got involved. You got involved. And And and so that that kind of, engraining of of hard work and, selflessness in some ways, Doing things for others and, playing your part in the in the kind of the group, in the team, which was kind of the family unit, And kinda getting on with it, and and not not complaining, kind of making stuff happen and doing your part. So I think it it shapes certainly not only a kind of an appreciation for the world around me, and and I really truly enjoy kind of peace and quiet. But I think a sense of real responsibility that was ingrained at a young age of a kind of care and looking after others or other things.
James Glover [00:08:22]:
There's there's some really, you know, like, a core tenant of of purpose is it service something it's about serving something beyond your own self interest. And, there's some really great work done by, professor William Damon at Stanford University around Youth and purpose and adolescence and purpose. And the core message from from his work is how do you And where do you help young people find a sense of service? Because all too often, nowadays, it isn't about what am I bringing to others. It's about what is the world bringing to me, and how am I meeting the expectations of the world. So there's something really Wonderful in what you're describing here, which is my responsibility wasn't just to other people. It was other beings. And there there was something about There wasn't a choice here. You just got on and did it.
James Glover [00:09:14]:
But, actually, the sense of responsibility that came from that was beyond yourself.
Sam Whale [00:09:19]:
Yeah. And
James Glover [00:09:20]:
that's been something that has sat with you continually.
Sam Whale [00:09:23]:
I think I think so, James. And I think, you know, the the people that I'm I was surrounded by in terms of my my family, Most of my family all work for themselves in one way, shape, or form, and and they kind of, like, found their own way. And and, actually, what they what they do, they all do different things. But, actually, the thing that that links most of them Is they work in an environment which is a service to others? So so, again, I think I was influenced by, You know, how how can we how can I? How can we kind of, enable support, kinda give, provide To kinda other people around you. Make life better for other people. Make life easier for other people. Provide a really great Quality product or a great quality service. And so, you know, I think I was surrounded by that.
Sam Whale [00:10:14]:
And and that, you know, undoubtedly kinda shaped my sense What was important in life and what sort of person I think I wanted to be.
James Glover [00:10:22]:
Yeah. And and so what was that moment of disruption like then where That that all of that kind of rich experience, which feels at one end of a spectrum, then came to meet A whole bunch of other experiences, and, you know, you're saying, it didn't prepare me. As great as that was, we're talking about it. Oh, wow. Look how great it is. I've serviced to others. Wallop. Yeah.
Sam Whale [00:10:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
James Glover [00:10:44]:
I wasn't ready for that.
Sam Whale [00:10:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it is interesting, isn't it? Those moments of transition in your life that, you know, When I reflect back on paper, I probably shouldn't be doing what I'm doing. I probably shouldn't be where I am in life if you're just looking at kind of Me on paper, I wasn't a particularly academic kid. I I struggled at school, you know, with with various. It's brilliant nowadays that there are, there's so much more care and attention paid to, different learning needs.
Sam Whale [00:11:15]:
And and there just wasn't you know, when I was at school, I had some amazing teachers that that did their very best. But the the the service wasn't there in terms of being able to Support someone who had a profound difficulty with spelling, dyslexic dyslexia, you know, struggle to be able to retain, you know, big big amounts of information. So navigating your way through that I'm kind of probably feeling a sense of isolation in amongst all of that because everyone else seemingly kinda got it and kind of Could do it. So, you know, but I kind of battled my way through through school to point of of getting, you know, average grades in Stuff and then excelling in a couple of things that I was really passionate and interested by and curious by. And and that, you know, that 1st moment of leaving home to go to university, I kinda wasn't meant to go to university. It wasn't on the cards. You know? It was was 6 weeks I went through clearing. It was 6 weeks before the kind of the the university term started.
Sam Whale [00:12:16]:
And, you know, and I remember a conversation with my parents that I I'd applied to go and study performing arts and psychology, and I and I only did that because my best friend at the time filled out my UCAS form for me and kinda made me apply. So, like, when my parents then kind of were like, what on earth are you gonna do with that? You know? Because Going to university wasn't something many people in our family had ever done. In fact, there was only 1 person in our entire family that had ever been to university. And then me, like, I suspect most people at the age of 18, going, well, I don't know. But, actually, I still remember the first thing I said was teacher. Teacher. And I think that had come from just going back to some of the stuff we talked about earlier. I had taught people how to ride horses from a very young age.
Sam Whale [00:13:08]:
I had found as much passion with teaching people how to, Accomplish, horsemanship, equestrianism as much as I did competing in it. I didn't know that at the time, but I reflect can kinda think, wow. That was that was a really important moment. And I think that kind of bled through to what could I become. Well, I kind of enjoy helping people, so teachers seems like an obvious
James Glover [00:13:34]:
And and, again, Sam, you know, the, there are 2 things for me in this. The first one is, I just resonate so deeply with your educational experience, you know, being a fellow dyslexic in a time where That wasn't kind of a diagnosed thing. And being pretty mediocre at most things, but excelling at a couple of things I really liked And kind of played to more the skills of, you know, a dyslexic, individual. And it's certainly something I now have come to value as a superpower, Actually, because it's a completely different worldview. But it stands apart, so far apart from The way in which the world wants you to see things. And so that can be really like a really, really jarring experience. So I I fully relate fully relate to that experience. But There's also something really magical here for for our listeners who are constantly wrestling with this idea of Working back and connecting the dots because these are the things that really shape sense of purpose for us.
James Glover [00:14:35]:
And, already, you're you're peeling the onion, in that There was a a part of just kind of family life and experience where it was, we serve. There's responsibility to to other things beyond us. But then also within that, it wasn't just about, okay, helping didn't just come to the surface because of that sense of responsibility. Actually, you had experiences where the transfer of knowledge, the ability to see other people grow and learn Was within your gift, was within your experience. And it's and it's it's interesting now to go, well, 1 plus 1 equals which is my 1st dyslexic the dyslexics can do. Right? So, oh, I can help people teach horse riding. I can teach. Yes.
James Glover [00:15:17]:
Let's do let's
Sam Whale [00:15:18]:
do that. Yeah.
James Glover [00:15:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so simple. Yeah. But there's a part of it which is coming from a really intuitively meaningful place.
Sam Whale [00:15:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think so. And, you know, at the time, you would have been able to Made that connection or joined the dots, but with the benefit of kind of age, wisdom, and experience, and doing the work, quite frankly, Doing the work on it. You, you can, you can see the, the, the trail of breadcrumbs, that kind of leads to the here, the here and now. So yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, my my parents asked me that question.
Sam Whale [00:15:54]:
What are you gonna do? Teach? And then I'm kinda going, but it is so so so I did 3 a levels. I did psychology, performing arts, and sport. And and I just picked the 3 subjects I really enjoyed. Well, I just was fascinated and and kinda loved all 3. And, And and so my mom and dad went, have you thought about doing sport? Like a sports science. Because I I think it may be in their mind, science was more credible A credible degree, which I can see. And and so and and not not really knowing. I, you know, I kinda listen to them and, You know, that's what you do.
Sam Whale [00:16:32]:
And you sort of takes a steering and direction from them. And I ended up switching at the very last minute and and doing a sports science degree. But, you know, even in that Experience. I I found myself hugely drawn towards, the modules of psychology and coaching. And I kind of dismissed Nutrition and biomechanics and all the yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sam Whale [00:16:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They kinda paled into the Right. What I was really focused on was I'm fascinated about how different people learn. Really interested about how you How you get inside the minds of other people about what's happening for them and and how you can influence other people and how you can support and Help other people.
James Glover [00:17:15]:
And and
Sam Whale [00:17:15]:
and I think that's kind of was the the beginning of of then, I guess the the years that followed in terms of a in terms of a career.
James Glover [00:17:24]:
Yeah. Amazing. And you mentioned, that kind of that critical word of transition a moment ago, there are, you know, there are there are just these key moments of of of transition in in all of our lives, that kinda feel like pivotal moments. Do you do you have one of those that felt like, You know, as you were experiencing it, you were kind of like, oh, wow. I can't now unsee that. The world is never gonna be the same again after it.
Sam Whale [00:17:52]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think It's often the moments that are, sadly kind of in in life either tinged with For me, personally, either tinged with kind of trauma or or like overwhelming optimism. And, and it's almost like these 2 extremes of emotion that that really stay with you that I think kind of imprint on you and and and affect and influence The way you think about yourself and the way you think about the world. And so I can think of both really positive kind of Moments. And I can think of, at the time, pretty horrific moments That that that kind of stay with you and and as I said, and and shape you. If I if I stayed with the kind of maybe more positive experience, I, You know, a bit like school. I I kinda struggled at university, and it didn't really feel it was fine.
Sam Whale [00:18:57]:
Like, I met some nice people. We had a good time. You did a lot growing up at uni. Right? The the the course was elements of it were really interesting. Others, I've, You know, totally kind of forgotten about. It's like another existence, another world. But but I remember we had to do a we did a 4. My degree is 4 years.
Sam Whale [00:19:18]:
And in the 3rd year, you had to take a year out. You had to go and get what they called industry experience. And I'm so grateful. I remember at the time thinking, why am I doing this? I just wanna get this degree kinda finished. And I could and there was other people who were mature students that kinda could could leapfrog that because they'd, you know, been working and come back into education. And I so wanted to be in their shoes. So I ended up, you know, going out and getting a job. And you had to go through this, you know, process of applying for For these kind of what felt like on the surface, just meaningless jobs.
Sam Whale [00:19:53]:
It was just a sort of a tick in the box to kinda, you know, Go and say you've done some work and then come back and do 4th year. So I sort of walked into it rather begrudgingly and and perhaps with in in a negative mindset. And, and do you know what? That year of working and I worked for the British Equestrian Federation, national governing body of equestrian sport because that was Still my sport, so I felt connection now. And and I have the most wonderful boss who, I think in some ways taught me so much about leadership in such such a short space of time. And I'm so eternally grateful. And it was one of the most profound years that really challenged and changed and grew my outlook on what was Possible in life, because I found James for the first time. I I find myself being really quite good at something, which I wasn't expecting. I found I found work easy.
Sam Whale [00:20:54]:
I found navigating new relationships With people easy, I found kind of influencing other people easy. I found The work really interesting. I felt proud of what I was doing. I felt like I was having an impact. And I felt a real sense of loyalty to the organization and and the and the cause. And, and so that that that first proper working experience, a real job Beyond earning pocket money really shaped, I think, my views on on kind of what What great leadership can look like in an organization and how to navigate the kind of the ups and downs of organizational life and the, The relationships that you have to cultivate in order to be able to kinda get stuff done and the collaboration that you need to be able to Drive in order to make things happen. And and for some reason, that came really naturally To me, I didn't feel like it was something I had to necessarily learn. It was instinctive.
Sam Whale [00:22:01]:
And I and I and I quickly realized I was Getting results quite quickly. So it was then it was then consolidating. I was like, wow. I'm I'm fairly good at kind of being a good employee. Yeah. Yeah.
James Glover [00:22:16]:
And again, Sam, there are 2 things that really draw me into this. You talked about the your boss and, actually, what they were able to, instill in you in a really short space of time. And I'd love to know a little bit About what that was, what your experience was, but more importantly, what you felt in those experiences that kinda transferred that That kind of knowledge so quickly. And and then the second thing, was was what you were just starting to share there about the kind of The connection to intuition, which is there's this increased level of awareness of, hey. Hold on. I can do this. And it's not hard. Like, everything is everything I've ever done like this, like, you know, from an education perspective, hard effort, This doesn't require it.
James Glover [00:23:03]:
And look. Oh, outcomes. I can get the outcomes as well. Easy and outcomes. Is this a real thing? Like, am I cheating? But there's something in that connection, isn't there, of I'm I'm feeling I'm becoming aware of, the experiences that I'm having in the moment and being able to connect with That feeling. And what I mean by the connection is not just the kind of the the bodily awareness, but connecting it to outcome too, Going, maybe I should trust this
Sam Whale [00:23:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. And the power of that.
James Glover [00:23:36]:
So there's something about the leadership, and there's something about trusting your your Your intuition.
Sam Whale [00:23:42]:
Yeah. And I I kind of, intuition has been my companion Yeah. Throughout life, And, in the in the, I guess, the the the toughest moments of Kind of decision making or navigating the challenges. It's what I go to. And I've learned, it's it's served me well. And that that's not to say that you kind of dismiss information, data, evidence. You don't dismiss that, but I I've I've always trusted my intuition around more so around people Around people, can I trust you? Do you display the kind of behaviors that enable me to trust you.
James Glover [00:24:36]:
Do
Sam Whale [00:24:36]:
I get that kind of good, warm, fuzzy feeling of kind of, you know, being around you? Is there something just a bit off that, You know, I need to investigate. And and as I've as I've kinda grown and lived a bit longer and learned more about I also appreciate that one of my, one of the things I have to be careful of is not to jump to conclusions too quickly About people not to prejudge. And so I have to work quite hard at that because my intuition works very quickly. And and and at times, I have to kind of go. I'm noticing that, and I'm going to choose just to park it. It's not doesn't mean that I'm discounting it. I'm just gonna Pop it over to one side, and I'm gonna do a bit more investigating before I draw before I draw a conclusion. And, And that's so important in the work that, you know, you and I do, working with people and developing people.
Sam Whale [00:25:36]:
But that's that's been a constant companion, kinda with me. And and and now and that again comes from, I think comes from some of the some of the dynamics I was navigating As a young person kind of in our family and in our extended family and growing up in the there were some challenging moments, like many families, and, Some difficult relationships and some some not so good behavior. So so kind of learning how to navigate that as as, You know, been has helped me, I think, in terms of navigating other relationships. But your question I'm probably veering off track. I think your question was, what was what were, like, some of the qualities that that
James Glover [00:26:21]:
that Interestingly, you know, you talked there about the kind of some of the The challenging experiences in that kind of family dynamic and, and how that had shaped some of your intuitive experience. But I'm wondering if the exact same is true, but from an opposite perspective with the the kind of the leadership experience that you said that you had in terms of What they were able to teach you in such a short space of time and the legacy that that then created in you. I'm wondering if there's, you know, there's the flip almost.
Sam Whale [00:26:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. Possibly. I hadn't thought about that until you said it. I think, Yeah. I think I I think what you know, when I think about this person, haven't thought about them for a long time because it was a long time ago. But it, You know, an individual with no ego, a sense of kind of doing what's right, Regardless of the impact on them, a care for people, a genuine care for people, a sense of high standards and an unwavering kind of, but but kinda kind approach to high standards. Someone who just inspired you to want to be your very best and wouldn't want you know, for me, it was about, I don't wanna let this person down Because they've entrusted me so much, you know, their ability to be able to kind of give you freedom To to do your thing, to act, to take risks, to make decisions, but know that they were always kinda there in in the background ready to step in or support if you Made a mistake or a misjudgment, you know, or an error.
Sam Whale [00:28:02]:
And and, yeah, and that kind of just gave me license to kind of Experiment within an organization and know that I had kind of cover, but, you know, a sense of a sense of real, what's the word I'm looking for? Belief, a sense of belief in me, You know? And that was like, wow. What you know? Maybe I am good at some stuff, and maybe I can do this. And, that to your point, you know, all of our experiences To to some degree, perhaps less so in terms of competing, teaching other people, I felt Barely comfortable and confident in my ability to do that. But, certainly, kind of from an academic schooling perspective, I was I was never I was never brilliant at anything. There was always other people better than me. But, so yeah.
James Glover [00:28:55]:
What what's what strikes me, Sam, is when you're describing this person, the you didn't go to capability at all. I mean, they must have had exceptional capability if they're the leader of the organization. But Mhmm. The things that have created a legacy Are the things that, they cultivated emotionally in you. You know, there's a Trust, a belief. There was a sense of freedom. There was a, you know, sense of care. And then there was the almost like the emerging values for you or the things that have always been values, but certainly a kind of an emerging awareness to them in terms of, well, Excellence is important, but there's a way to achieve it.
James Glover [00:29:41]:
Actually, it's not just about, it's not just about the standard you set. It's how you bring people to that standard that's really It's really critical. And I and I I draw attention to that because it feels Like, there will be many people who are when they think about what good looks like in the world around them, Often it's about the things that people do rather than who they really are. And sometimes it's important just to be able to call distinction that the legacy that we create is often about who we are rather than what we've done. But all the time, we lead with what we do. Yeah. And to some
Sam Whale [00:30:22]:
degree. Yeah. I completely agree with you. And for me, it was all about who that person was. And and I think about the the the people I choose to work with now. I think about, the people I've worked with in the past and it and it, for me, the most important thing is who you are and what you bring. And and, you know, connection with people, particularly through the lens of leadership, should be emotional, In my view, it is emotional. You're trying to work together to achieve something.
Sam Whale [00:30:56]:
And if you're Passionate about that and you wanna do a good job. Emotion is just part and parcel of it. It's kind of with you on the journey. And and trying to close down emotional reactions, responses in relationships to others. Because, honestly, we are in a relationship, Whether or not we like it like it or not is is kind of you're you're you're missing something for me. You're you're you're kind of stifling the the potential For one person to positively impact and influence another and vice versa and and be able to achieve something together often Where you don't think it's possible to achieve something as well. You know? For me, it's the it's the extra ingredient that kind of sets people apart, in terms of what they accomplish and and more and more importantly, how they go about accomplishing that.
James Glover [00:31:51]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you you you spoke to that in terms of I don't want to let this person down. That's a, you know, deep level of intrinsic motivation, isn't it? We can talk about the shadow side of that too because you can, you know, overplay some stuff. But I'm wondering because this feels like a really, Useful moment to maybe just kind of pivot pivot from this kind of uncovering sense of purpose experience into kind of more the the understanding element of it. Because you, you know, you're drawing us into emotion and the criticality and the significance of of emotion and and relationship. And, You know, one of the most important relationships we have is is with ourself, and often it can be under cultivated.
James Glover [00:32:34]:
And and the whole nature of Purpose for me around understanding is about self worth. It's about knowing that we're enough. Because If we if we know what is meaningful is significant and we're able to make a contribution to the things that really matter, then we feel valued. You know, we feel like we have worth and and we're enough, and we determine that. We decide that. So, you know, I'm really interested from your perspective. What are the What are the strongest influences on your sense of self worth nowadays, and and how did you become aware of them?
Sam Whale [00:33:06]:
It's a big question. I I think in some ways, it's It's a sort of a you know, it's it's a combination of everything you ever experience in life that gets you to this kind of point. And And it's never a journey that's complete. Right? You know, we're we're still experiencing new things, and we're still finding out stuff about ourselves, and we're evolving, and we're Kind of challenging our own perceptions of ourselves. I think I've I think I've been really privileged and lucky to be For the majority of my kind of working life in a learning environment constantly, I'm kind of exposed to so many different People with different outlooks and different experiences. And I think that's, You know, I've kinda had, like, 20 years of almost being in informal education about about learning about people. And and with that, Therefore, having to learn about myself because the work starts as you described, James, like, starts with you and being in and and knowing kind of knowing what Works for you, knowing what motivates you, knowing what demotivates you, knowing what challenges you, knowing what upsets you. And and and so I think there's been Moments where I've had to then kind of do quite, you know, substantial amount of soul searching, around what what's going on for me.
Sam Whale [00:34:28]:
And I've I've been, Again, I've been lucky enough to have those moments kind of in my in my life to be able to explore what what that is.
James Glover [00:34:38]:
And what what did that look like for you, Sam? You know, just for a moment, think about being somebody in their car or out going out for a run right now and just going, okay. I I feel the tension there, or I'm experiencing the tension. What what's the experience of soul searching? What was that like for you? What were the things that you were you were searching around in and at and for?
Sam Whale [00:35:04]:
I I I think being curious about how I Respond well in some instances and to some people and also being curious about why I respond in in a not so good way With some people in some instances, I'm wondering what that's all about. So there was a genuine kind of curiosity about noticing my own behavior. You know, when I'm under pressure and I and I become a bit belligerent and I become difficult, why am I becoming difficult? And and and, you know, so I guess from, like, early twenties, I got really interested around this notion of Of personal values, you know, and the values that shape and drive. And where does how do they get formed? And where is that shape from? And and And why are they with me? And can I change them? And do I want to change them? And, you know, will they change? And and almost then getting a bit frustrated that, you know, Like, I think for many of us, we might put down an idealistic set of kind of, words that we think describes us. But actually, you know, to my point earlier, it's the it's the extremities of experience. It's the extremities of emotion that I think lay the foundations of those core values in us. And I think I've spent a long time thinking about that, and I've spent a long time reflecting on that. And I And I think about excuse my language.
Sam Whale [00:36:30]:
I think about what really pisses me off. You know, what's the behavior in others that really, I call it my fizzy bottle moment. What's that physiological response where I'm having to work really hard to keep the lid on and and in the past Because I didn't have a sense of myself fully or well enough, the fizzy bottle lid would explode. And I would have an incredibly emotional reaction Action to things. And as a child, I was incredibly volatile, emotionally volatile. You know, I would I would really lose my temper. And, you know, people describe that kind of red mist. I can relate to that.
Sam Whale [00:37:06]:
As a as a youngster, I used to turn my room inside out and back to front With with rage or or then genuine upset if I felt like I'd let someone down or let something down. And, you know, that that Those extremities really kinda shape your values and what's important to you. And so I think doing the work, being prepared to do the work on Self and and being in environments, which is why I mentioned I feel like I've been gifted throughout my career, a kind of a learning environment to explore that and experiment with that. So finding out what what you really stand for and what what you kind of what you go to in terms of your core. What is your guide? What is your framework for making decisions? I think that's really important. And I and I I see people Paying lip service to that and not and not doing the work. And I just find it so it helps me in so many parts of my life now, you know, In all facets of day to day, relationship, family, friends, work. Yeah.
Sam Whale [00:38:16]:
The question I ask myself is, is this about me, or is this about the other person? Yeah.
James Glover [00:38:20]:
Yeah. It's really interesting you talk about, You know, turning your room upside down and, you know, this kind of fizzy bod pot bottle moment. And, you know, for our listeners, I've got a wry smile here when when you say, can I can I I'm sorry? Excuse the language, and then said, you know, pisses me off because Some of our guests have gone a little bit more fragrantly than that. But that's but that's, but that's how I experienced you, Sam, calm and considered and, soulful and playful. And so the very idea that there's a red mist rage history in you, I'm like, yes. Where does that come from? How did that happen? But but it's almost an evidence base that, you know, I've known you for over 10 years, And that doesn't seem true to me, yet it's part of, you know, who you are and how you try to understand yourself and thought about what is my relationship With the world. And if people want this most simple definition of purpose for me, it's about, you know, our relationship with the world because it has 2 components. It has you.
James Glover [00:39:22]:
It has a world and the connection between those those two things. And so, you know, this idea of of Of kind of being able to understand and, and create a foundation of self worth that comes from the inside out. You know, you're really doing a beautiful job of of being able to to To articulate the the importance of those kind of founding ideals, you know, the kind of the values lived into virtues, and being able to see And spend time in different situations and circumstances that provoke different responses from those things so that you know that you can rely upon them. There's a level of consistency There for you, I guess, is what what I'm hearing that then enables the extreme edges to kind of feel a little bit more, Within your control and influence, which is one of the powers of the outcome of a sense of purpose is that kind of feeling of Control. Where, where have you unleashed it? Where have you unleashed those things? Like, where have been the moments of courage, You know, within work or within your personal life where you have just had this faith and belief in something that was possible that required you to go to a place of emotion emotional conviction and courage to go after it? Yeah. Where where have you unleashed it? Oh, wow.
Sam Whale [00:40:45]:
I guess the most obvious example Of that, James, was in 2013 when they're probably at the height of when we were working together. And on paper, I had a I had a really I had a great life. I was about to say I had a had a really great, role, but actually more than that, kind of life was pretty pucker. You know, I'm I'm in my I'm in my late twenties. I'm living in London. Never thought I would do that. You know, my first
James Glover [00:41:18]:
boy. Scared you. Right?
Sam Whale [00:41:20]:
My first my my first visit to London on a school trip at the age of 16 or 17, and I I was scared to death. I thought, who on earth do people live here? And, and I never want to come back. That was my that was my overriding kind of, feeling at that time. And and low and behold, I find myself moving on To, live in London and and working for UK Sport and, just having the most incredible Learning journey. I mean, it was it was steep and, so rewarding and so fulfilling at a time where, Yeah. We were gearing up for home games, Olympics, and Paralympics, in my back garden because I lived on the edge of, the Olympic Park in Stratford. And, and I had 6 brilliant brilliant years that were, again, Kind of life shaping. And, and I could have just carried on.
Sam Whale [00:42:19]:
I could have just carried on, you know, off the buzz of London and And, you know, all of our collective work being successful and and doing what no host nation had ever done. And it was like, right. Roll on Rio. You know, let's do more of it. Let's let's let's do more of the work that we've done in supporting coaches and developing coaches and learning from other industries Bringing that into our world and, you know, developing a really strong system for this for this success to continue. And I I had reached a point where I just felt I was repeating the same experience. And I was It felt the way I can describe it. It felt like I was treading water, and I wasn't I'd stopped growing.
Sam Whale [00:43:04]:
I'd stopped learning. And I think On reflection, perhaps because I'd had that 5 to 6 years where every day was about learning. And then there was this sort of period where I was like, suddenly, it didn't feel like that anymore. It felt quite I'm extreme. The the sense of the sense of inertia. And, and and then I just thought, well, This can't be me for for for for the next 10 years. I'm not very good with routine. I like doing things differently.
Sam Whale [00:43:33]:
I don't like repeating experiences. I need to I need to kind of challenge myself because, you know, I I've stood up in front of, You know, people who are just brilliant people at what they do and talked about the importance of learning from other places and other people and Taking yourself out of your comfort zone. And lo and behold, I was I was kind of in my comfort zone. And I thought, well, bollocks. I can't I can't, you know, Continue to operate with integrity. I have to kinda take a dose of my own medicine, and therefore, what is gonna take me out of my comfort zone? And that that meant leaving. That meant moving on. And, I didn't really know what that was.
Sam Whale [00:44:12]:
I knew I didn't wanna work in a big organization where I would just be eaten up by a machine and be one of many. I knew I wanted to learn from a different, world. So not necessarily sport because that had been my career and that had been my experience. So I I kinda recognized that there was a bigger world out there. And I knew I needed something that was really gonna challenge me and make me feel a bit uncomfortable. And long story short, You know, through through a conversation with, John, John Steele, He was the chief exec at UK Sport when I first joined and was someone who who I kind of shared an instant connection with, in the time that that he was the chief exec, we just had a conversation, and the conversation sparked an idea. And that idea was the formation of Have an unforgiving minute that our business, which is now in our 10th year, and and that was a leap of faith. And and I You know, we started from nothing.
Sam Whale [00:45:15]:
Absolute absolutely nothing. We shook hands on what we wanted the business to do, And we said, let's just give it a go and see what happens. And I handed my notice in with 3 months. I had no idea how I was gonna pay my rent for the 1st month. I managed to save a bit of money to kinda get me through for the 1st 6 weeks. And therefore, that was like a that was like a A lighter to a flame in terms of you gotta make something happen. Like, you can't you can't just wait for someone to kind of put something in your lap or, for someone to offer you something. Like, you are now the master of your own destiny.
Sam Whale [00:45:56]:
And unless you make it happen, Then this ain't gonna work. And ultimately, you know, you go back to working for an organization. And And so we made it work. And, and it and it and it was tough. And I remember being apprehensive about about Making that call. And I I remember a great conversation with, a a kind of a a colleague who We bought in to do different work. She's a great coach, great mentor. And I remember she said to me, Sam, if you don't believe in yourself, how do you expect other people To believe in what you can offer.
Sam Whale [00:46:37]:
And it just hit me between the eyes. And I thought, you're right. If I'm not even gonna back myself in terms of making this successful, Working along some someone like John who, you know, huge amount of kind of credibility and experience in the space of leadership, Like, you you like, you're never gonna make it work, so just just go for it and And figure it out as you go and take responsibility. And that, I think, you know, I was lucky enough that that sense of responsibility and accountability came very easily To me. Because of, I think, in some ways, the the environment in which I'd grown up in With majority of my family kind of plowing their own furrow, making their own way, and and and seeing the ups and downs of that, you know, and and kind of Coping with those setbacks. You know, there were definite moments early on where I didn't know how I was gonna pay my rent. And now I was I was, like, days away from having to go to my parents and ask them for money, something I'd never done, which felt incredibly uncomfortable at doing at the age of 28. Thankfully, I didn't have to.
Sam Whale [00:47:50]:
But there have been there have been those moments. And so, Yeah. You know, leap of faith around moving from a really, really brilliant environment, a great organization, a great call is something I felt very passionate About, a job that I got established in and had had had built some credibility, I think, with the with the people in the system that that we worked with. And it would have been really easy for me to just stay in that in that system. But it it, yeah, it wasn't enough. It wasn't enough.
James Glover [00:48:21]:
And so there was a second element of what you were sharing there, Sam, as well, which closes the loop, and this idea of responsibility. And that idea that If I can't make this work now with this person, I'm never gonna be able to make this work. I can I've got to take this on, which was, you know, kind of responsibility to yourself and to John. And was almost fed by I was 2 days away from me potentially having to ask my parents for money, And that's the last thing I needed to do. You know? I've I've got to I've got to deal with this. So there's there's just something really magical about the way in which you're closing the loop of this really, Really, critical moment of leap of faith. But, actually, what was driving that was the same stuff that was formed in you in that Period of uncovering and connecting the dots.
Sam Whale [00:49:08]:
Yeah. I think so. I think that's, it's a it's it's a great kind of playback, James, actually, of of, of our conversation and, and connecting some of the things that we've we've talked about, through throughout.
James Glover [00:49:24]:
But just to put you on the spot a little bit, Sam, you know, that that bleep of faith was really a a kind of a professional moment. Obviously, it has, you know, huge Kind of personal knock on effect. But I'm wondering if there are if there are leaps of faith where you've kind of really had to have those moments of courage from a personal perspective 2.
Sam Whale [00:49:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. There's, yeah, sort of several, really. I notice, What works for me is when I say things out loud, I then feel a sense of commitment about having to follow through with them. Because other people know it's not just in my head. Say like, you know, say like when I say I'm gonna take a big chunk of time off, I'm not gonna work and I'm gonna go traveling, I'm gonna do it on my own, And then the words leave your mouth and go, oh, okay, I've said it, so therefore people now ask me questions about when I'm doing it and how I'm getting on with planning that trip. So I had to follow through with it. And it's interesting.
Sam Whale [00:50:25]:
It doesn't come from necessarily a Desire to want to, travel. It comes more from a place of I wonder how I'd get on doing this on my own. And I wonder how I would respond to this opportunity for travel, Immersing myself in completely different environments, you know, and as far away from that kind of protected, A world that I grew up in for kind of 18 years. You know, I'm traveling South America, and I'm I'm kinda doing it on my own. And, you know, I don't single myself out as doing anything special. Lots of people do that. But the drive came from I wonder how I'll respond, I wonder how I'll get on. And I kind of notice I do that quite a lot in situation.
Sam Whale [00:51:21]:
I have a curiosity about myself, almost as if I'm looking in I'm outside looking at myself going, Go on then. See how you get on. See what you learn from that. Does that tell you something else about yourself? You know, and and and a similar experience was when I chose to kinda up sticks from London and move to Brighton. Didn't need to do that. Wasn't a wasn't a compelling reason about, you know, a work opportunity or Lifestyle particularly or a relationship, it was, I've lived in London for 6 years, I feel like I've got a bit complacent and a bit comfortable. I wonder what it would be like to live somewhere else. And I'm curious about how how I might respond Bond in that moment to that opportunity.
Sam Whale [00:52:11]:
And and and you know what? I guess I have this sense of perspective on life, Which is if it doesn't go right or it's not perfect, it doesn't matter. Because to a greater To a lesser degree, we have an opportunity to be able to then change it. You know, nothing's nothing's set, nothing's stuck. You can you can, You know, if the business didn't work and it didn't take off or it wasn't what we thought, well, I'll just go and get a job somewhere else. Now, it might be tough to get a job and it might be difficult and I might have to compromise on stuff, but so be it. And I think that's quite interesting around when you think about kind of aligning behind a sense of purpose and holding Holding true to yourself about what you're trying to achieve. I think being patient with that's really important. And and and I think there's there has to be be a degree of kind of compromise that perhaps in the short term, it will feel a bit uncomfortable, and it won't be Idealistic, and there'll be some stuff that you'll have to give up.
Sam Whale [00:53:17]:
But I think if you're clear about why you're doing it What it is that you're trying to move towards in the long term, then I think it's worth sticking with it, Despite how challenging it might be for a short period of time, and I definitely can relate to that from a Developing and growing our organization, our business. But I can relate to that from a a personal perspective as well. So maybe that just puts a different lens on it.
James Glover [00:53:49]:
And I I don't want to ask you any more questions, Sam. I think you've just Landed on a really brilliant moment for us to to kinda pause this conversation, which is, you know, there there is a word that's been really consistent Throughout this conversation, which has been curiosity. And, curiosity for me feels beyond just a desire to learn and grow. It feels like there's an activism behind it. And I love the question you ask yourself. Like, how am I gonna respond? I don't know. Let's go let's go and try it out. And it feels like in addition to responsibility, Like, that that that's a really critical founding ideal of yours, the the kind of the curious nature that you have in the world.
James Glover [00:54:32]:
And it's easy for some people to say, but, Aware of your choices have embodied that. But something's just emerged at the end, which I think is a leveler for all of us and something that we all need to hear, which is Patience. Patience. If it really matters, and you really value it, And it is going to deliver you in the direction that you know is critical. You don't know what the path is going to be. It's not set out in front of you. You don't know what The key moments of the journey are going to be, so be patient with yourself and stay the course. And that, for me, Feels like an overwhelmingly powerful message to invest in purpose because it can just help us stay the course.
James Glover [00:55:16]:
So, Sam, thank you. Like, just Wonderful to have this time to, to explore your journey and, and for you to be able to share your wisdom of experience. Thank you.
Sam Whale [00:55:30]:
Thanks for giving me the time and the space. It's seldom, you know, in the work that we do to kind of take stock and have the opportunity to kind of talk out your experiences. So, I appreciate the opportunity and the brilliant questions, James. There'll be stuff that I will be taking away to reflect on.
James Glover [00:55:48]:
Amazing. Have a wonderful, wonderful time, everybody. We look forward to being with you next time on the excitable soul. Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the Excitable Soul podcast. If you are interested in Uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose. Come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitable soul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.