Episode #10: Kerry Cullen
Embracing Fear, Faith and Honouring Inner Knowing
Welcome to The Excitable Soul Podcast, where we explore the profound journey of finding purpose and meaning in our lives.
In this episode, host I am joined by the inspiring Kerry Cullen, who, despite initial academic challenges, pursued her passion for psychology and went on to work in the Caribbean.
This conversation dives deep into the power of intuition, the necessity of slowing down and listening to our inner knowing, and the transformative impact of facing our mortality.
From reframing self-worth to embracing life's impermanence, this dialogue is a powerful exploration of self-discovery and overcoming fear. Join us on a journey of resilience, courage, and the beauty of imperfection.
Let's dive in.
Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find Meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique Sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host, James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:44]:
So let's get going, shall we? Today, my guest is Keri Cullin. Keri is focused on supporting people to remember their resources as they face into life's challenges. During her 20 year career as a chartered psychologist, she has weaved multiple modalities into her practice, Psychology, embodiment, neuroscience, and Celtic methodology. So that she can stand taller in her gift of being an integrator, at her happiest, when she sees people coming home a little more to who they truly are. She has worked across a huge variety of sectors and organizations, The Royal College of Surgeons, Bristol Myers Squibb, AIB, Deloitte, and IBEC, in addition to being trained by some of the world's foremost thought leaders, Doctor Mike Smith, Anthony Grant, Doug Silsbee, and Nancy Kine. This is a wonderfully grounded conversation. Enjoy. Kerry, massive welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast.
James Glover [00:01:46]:
Just wonderful to have you here with us And to be able to get in conversation with you. You know, the very name, the excitable soul, you know, yours is a wonderful soul. And to be able to, get our our listeners, our audience, to explore a little bit of of of that is gonna be magical, I know. So thank you so much for
Kerry Cullen [00:02:08]:
being with us. And thank you for having me on. I'm delighted to be here and really looking forward to our conversation. So thank you.
James Glover [00:02:16]:
Yeah. So I guess meaningfulness just oozes out of you, Kerry. And, you know, you can spend 5 minutes in conversation with you and know that You've been really intentional, really purposeful about trying to understand what matters to you in your life and to be able to do Work and live a life that feels connected to things that are significant and and really purposeful. And I'd just like to start by kind of, I guess, connecting the dots, going backwards, and understanding a little bit about how you've uncovered some of that for yourself. You know? Are there moments, People that have just really shaped who you are. Like, how have you made sense of of all of that meaning for yourself?
Kerry Cullen [00:02:59]:
That's a big question.
James Glover [00:03:00]:
Always. Let's just
Kerry Cullen [00:03:04]:
go right in there, James. Yeah. Great question. I mean, well, there's loads of stuff that comes up when you ask But, you know, I think right from, I always knew that I wanted to do psychology. So, you know, that was, it was kind of always within me that that was something I wanted to do, But then I didn't get the grades.
James Glover [00:03:30]:
And Down those universities and their entry levels.
Kerry Cullen [00:03:35]:
Yeah. So, I did, I didn't have the points that I needed, but I knew this is what I'm going to do. Like I'm going to go to do psychology In Coleraine in Northern Ireland, but I hadn't got in. So this was one moment that really shaped my life because it was like, When I'm doing it, even though I've not got in, this is this is my path. So I, like, pestered the bejesus out of The out of the university and I like rang them every day. And I even went and camped outside the the professor's office I'm so glad they let me in.
James Glover [00:04:13]:
Okay. Give the crazy lady The opportunity of joining the university, she's not going anywhere. Amay but amazing. So, right, already in that, like, there's just my My mind, the curiosity is like so you yeah. What was it? Where was where did the compulsion come from? Like, there must have been something burning so deeply in you to go and be then willing to, you know, camp on the street to get into the university. What what was driving that? Where did that come from?
Kerry Cullen [00:04:40]:
Yeah. I don't know. It was just like this this deep feeling that that was just what I was doing. You know? I didn't have a plan b for the for that year. No. That was what I was doing. And that was it, you know? So, so it, it was just like, there isn't another option. This is what I'm doing, you know? And there was just such clarity.
Kerry Cullen [00:05:00]:
And sometimes if I'm honest, I look back and go, God, I wish I could have that clarity. In other situations, if I'm honest, because You know, sometimes it's there really strongly and sometimes it's not right. You know, but that, that was a really strong moment for me. And then when I got on the course, I ended up doing really well And I ended up getting, a placement where I went off and I worked in the Caribbean for a year, which was amazing. I remember them trying to find me in the register, one of my tutors. And she goes, I can't find you anywhere. And I went, oh, that's because I came in that back do this, you know, this, and she was like totally shocked. And she went really? I was like, yeah, that's, that's how I, that's how I got here, you know? So, that that's one one experience that that really that I sometimes remind myself of that, you know, even when things aren't aligning, if you feel really strongly about it, just go for it.
Kerry Cullen [00:05:55]:
You know?
James Glover [00:05:55]:
Yeah. There's there's real magic in that, Carrie, isn't it? And, like, you had you had a feeling. And it's one of the things that we try to really underline in these conversations in this podcast that, You know, a sense of purpose is a feeling. And, actually, there is just so much rich data that comes from our emotional experience. And that, that that depth of intuition that if we can trust that, often good things happen. And for you to learn that in that moment of, No. No. There is no plan b.
James Glover [00:06:27]:
I'm committed. I'm going. Now what was the reaction of your parents, for example, about she's off She's off to Northern Ireland.
Kerry Cullen [00:06:35]:
Well, I was actually, I'd actually moved to Ireland the year before when I was, I decided I was taking a year out. So I've just turned 18, so I'd actually, I've taken this year out and I was meant to go to Canada and do volunteer work That all fell through. So I actually ended up going to Ireland, for this year, which is partly why I did so badly then because I was like, I remember I was selling potatoes and I just had real fun when I was there. And before I've gone, I've been this kind of Quite serious teenager. And I was almost too old if you know what I mean. So when I went there, I just Really came into my own, and and I just it's like I rebalanced having some of that fun, which I hadn't had as a teenager. So not much study.
James Glover [00:07:30]:
Yeah. Amazing. I love that. We're talking about this kind of deep sense of intuition about the kind of the future and where you're going. Basically, what you're saying, Carrie, is you went on The Lash for a year. You didn't get the grades.
Kerry Cullen [00:07:45]:
But I needed it, James. I needed some rebalance. Yeah.
James Glover [00:07:48]:
Of course. It's all about expenditure and recovery of energy. Right? So how did how did that and those experiences then start to to kind of shape Future experiences, what where how are you kinda how do you connect the dots in the sense making around that?
Kerry Cullen [00:08:04]:
Yeah. Well, I I think that, you know, that Feeling of of just knowing when when you as you said, that purpose is a feeling. So I think it helped to then trust when that Feeling comes up that it's something that needs to be listened to and needs to be honored even when it logically doesn't Make much sense. Even when there's consequence. So if I give you another example of that, if I fast Forward, you know, and then I, I set up my own business after, when I left university and set up this consultancy firm, and then kind of in my early thirties, I've got 2 small boys, and I'm running this consultancy, and it's going Very well. If we, you know, if, if I look at it in terms of the clients I was getting and the projects I was getting. And around that time, I also then trek started training as a yoga teacher. So once a month I'd go And, you know, we're doing this kind of deeper work where you're connecting with yourself.
Kerry Cullen [00:09:11]:
I'm on one of these retreat weekends. And I remember thinking, having this thought, and the thought was, I really need somebody really good, like a mother, To look after the kids so I can go and do all of this amazing work, you know? And I just literally got this bolt Up through my body and it was like, yeah, that's you. You know? And it was so powerful. And I had, I think I'd, I'd got lost in my priorities of, I was putting too much into my work and not enough into being a mother. You know, and that's not to say there's plenty of working mothers who get that balance really well. You know, at the time I hadn't. That was just such a strong feeling. And I knew I actually needed to step back from work for a little while So I could rebalance things, you know? So, so that was, you know, of course, and there's consequence in that then too, but it was so It's drunk.
Kerry Cullen [00:10:14]:
It was like Yeah. I I need to do this.
James Glover [00:10:17]:
And can you can you talk a little about the kind of the consequence element? Because, again, Kerry, what you're already beautifully doing is People have this kind of almost idealized image of, oh, yeah. Living a purposeful life means, like, I'm in some kind of utopian dream of everything is light and fluffy and happy and one and, actually, The power of purpose is it helps you understand suffering. So you can be in pain, but understand it. So can you talk a little about the kind of the consequence of those choices? Like, what that what that bolt of understanding then meant for you?
Kerry Cullen [00:10:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was really interesting because I did actually have a bit of this utopia idea, just exactly what you've described. Because I was like, well, this feeling is so strong that I, you know, I really need to do this. So, you know, I'm gonna be this Stay at home mom, and I'm gonna be baking muffins and, you know, this kind of idea of, you know, and, you know, and it's just gonna be So beautiful, you know, and I'm gonna be so happy, you know, and, you know, this is what I've been missing, you know, just wasn't that way. You know, it was really wonderful in some way, you know, to be able to be with them for that period of time. But actually what I had to meet was a lot of identity because I, I was all of a sudden I wasn't a psychologist anymore. And, and even more interesting was I wasn't earning as much money anymore.
Kerry Cullen [00:11:51]:
I, you know, I was earning very little money and I it made me face up to this reality that my sense of self worth was tied up with the amount of money I was earning. That was a painful one because you don't really want to look at that. But there was truth in that, and that was just through my programming, whatever. But that was true.
James Glover [00:12:11]:
Yeah. And so what did what did that represent to you then? What did the kind of the earning of the money represent when you were talking about self worth is connected to it? Yeah. What was the representation for you?
Kerry Cullen [00:12:21]:
I I guess well, it it was the it I suppose it it's the money, but also the appreciation of your work of, you know, the reinforcement. So it's just that Sense of you're doing a good job, you know? So but that was very powerful because it made me unpick that and become less attached to that, you know? And happy to lose that I had to actually find a sense of self worth that wasn't connected to that. So it made me let go of that story, you know, And, and yeah, rethink well, what is success? And what really matters? And, so it was Painful, but also a very good journey to to have to look at identity and what is identity.
James Glover [00:13:07]:
So can you could you talk a little bit to us about that? Because I can imagine that there are people sat there going, Okay. She how how she made that shift? Like, it that she's she's just made that sound really easy. Yes. There was a little bit of consequence, but She's now reframed her sense of self worth, and it comes from a place that feels more, more meaningful. Is what what did that Reframing, reshaping of your identity look like?
Kerry Cullen [00:13:34]:
Well, Michael Singer talks about in his book, The Untethered Soul. He talked something like about how we put our hand in a glove and, and the hand in the glove is, you know, That's our identities that we attach to. So, you know, I think some of that is taking the hand out of the glove And then actually looking at ourselves. So it's a it's a really good question. I'm trying to reflect and and think about it. I think it was a slow process. I know that sounds really quick. And I also think actually it's one That that spirals, and I've been around several times as well, if that makes sense.
Kerry Cullen [00:14:16]:
So I think that was a layer of of self worth going through that journey. And then another layer and another spiral of self worth was when I was told about 5 years ago that I needed to have brain surgery, which didn't come to pass. Thank God. But that was really helpful because it was like, oh god. What is the point putting all this energy into self doubt?
James Glover [00:14:40]:
Yeah. Okay. Wow. Yeah. Talk can you yeah. Just just talk us through that experience because that's, You know, you you you wear it so lightly in your description, but, you know, I can only imagine what it's like when you're sat there with Medical professionals who are saying, hey. We found this thing in your brain, and there's a chance we might need to operate. The outcome of that for you has been, I'm letting go of self doubt.
James Glover [00:15:06]:
Let those dots for us.
Kerry Cullen [00:15:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it is you sat there and you get this news and and at that stage, the news was we do need to do brain Surgery soon is terrifying. And, and I just remember there was kind of that terror and that fear. The biggest fear was what if I, what if I'm not here for the kids? You know, that was the biggest fear with that. And you know, there was, there was, Yeah. It was quite overwhelming and, and also very humbling because it brought me into a place of realising that actually I needed other people.
Kerry Cullen [00:15:43]:
For me to feel okay around that time, I really needed other people to be able to help me, you know, feel okay. And, and So that was humbling. So so there's that side. And then also alongside of that is this real firm kick up the ass, To be honest, in terms of well, if you've only got however many years to live, you better bloody get on with it. And, you know, and you're wasting energy on this self doubt. So, you know, so that journey, I don't think it's a case of the, You know, I I let go of the identity of the psychologist, and all of a sudden, I didn't have self doubt. That that wouldn't be true for me to say. But I lost Some of it.
Kerry Cullen [00:16:27]:
And then that has been a journey that I've, you know, that I've continued to work with. But I think, you know, in Celtic Philosophy. They talk a lot about the spirit of our death. In both the and death is so scary For a lot of us. And there's also a great gift in actually, when we, when we face into the impermanency of things, that it can say, well, what really matters? So that, that also came along at that time, You know, we've, of really making me sit with that and think, and it also made me braver with my work in terms of my When I got more authentic with it, I think, because it was like, well, may as well just get on with it.
James Glover [00:17:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. And the, You know what's the the kind of the power of the message, Keri, really about the kind of the the scariness of of the kind of Finite nature of life, but, actually, how that can shape a a perspective when you kind of just really embrace the reality. You know, there's that that kind of comedic phrase, isn't there? None of us are getting out of this one alive. And you're like but you're like, don't say that out loud. Like, why would why would you do that? Why would you talk about it? When in reality, if we start to acknowledge that, what what can it make possible When you start to think in those terms, rather than kind of fearing that, you say, well, what what, where am I focused? Where is my energy going? What am I embracing in this moment. And the fact that part of the outcome of that for you was was being able to feel brave in in how you go to work to help others. Like, that's, you know, again and I just wanted to go back 1 step if that was okay when you talked about the kind of the humbling nature of knowing that you needed others In order to feel okay about that that moment, who who were the others? Who were you know, when you became aware of that, who were the people that you saw around you that you're going, okay.
James Glover [00:18:35]:
You you are the anchors here for me.
Kerry Cullen [00:18:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, definitely my husband, David, who is who's very grounded. So so he was brilliant in terms of being able to, you know, look at the medical data that I didn't end up Spending loads of time on Google, you know? So, so he was a real, a really good anchor. And then my family and friends, you know, so like my my parents and my siblings and then friends and then also, some people in my professional life, for example, I remember spending a day with Nancy Klein who, who talks about her own, health issues. And that was very helpful just to actually be able to see some possibility to be able to move out of the fear And actually find some curiosity. So I think yeah. So I I was looking to have good people around me, But it was humbling that when you, when you're experiencing something like that, you need other people.
Kerry Cullen [00:19:39]:
I think it's David White talks about how, When I'm I'm going to misquote him now. So but something like, when things like this happen, it Puts us into right relationship because we have to ask for help.
James Glover [00:19:53]:
Yeah. And you you gave me one of the one of the best pieces of parenting advice ever, which is you just said, look. It takes a village. It takes a village. And that when I think about The relationship of self to others or, you know, kind of individual to community, just the tribal nature of our species, is always is always kind of reconfirmed in that moment. Like, we aren't any good on our own, full stop. And, Again, you know, when you think about what what purpose really is, when you kinda break it down to its key mechanisms, it's meaningfulness and contribution. And it's so it's about something that's beyond your own self interest.
James Glover [00:20:35]:
So in those moments of Fear and and and genuine worry. There's something about how how and where do I find meaning in this, and who are the people around me in order to enable me to do that. Yeah. The the magic the magic of others. And I think that's often Forgotten, you know, in the, in the way in which we live our lives these days that, if you really just think about, And I was listening to a to a podcast, actually, where they just simply said, if you're trying to be there was they were quoting some research, actually, about happiness and how they'd done, research studies in 4 different countries. There were there was Japan, the US, 2 countries in, like, Central Europe. I think one of them was Germany, and I can't remember the other. And they looked at, a population of people where they really encouraged them to invest and discover what made them happy.
James Glover [00:21:33]:
And they found that, in the US, when people really pursued happiness, Their actual level of happiness went down. And in the other 3 countries, when they pursued happiness, they went up. And there was one variable between the 2, which is that In the other 3 countries, when they pursued happiness, it was about impact on others. How do I serve others? Whereas in the US, it was, what do I need? And they weren't reconciling who am I and what do I need with what do I bring to other people. And so, again, it's just a A kind of a a reaffirmation of that's who we are, isn't it?
Kerry Cullen [00:22:10]:
That's a powerful piece of research, isn't it? It really
James Glover [00:22:14]:
is, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you talked about this idea of kind of identity and and self worth in in the work that You know, we do at the excitable soul. The number one aim is to help people really feel enough. And I'm wondering, you know, What are your strongest influences on self worth now, Keri? And how did you become aware of them?
Kerry Cullen [00:22:39]:
Oh, that's a good question. I think Probably in actually reframing some of my thinking. So for example, If we think, if we talk about courage and think about courage, you know, we can have, which is linked So self worth to me, what are we being courageous about? You know? And I think I would have had This idea of of courage having to be this big grandiose, you know, act. You know?
James Glover [00:23:18]:
I'm Diving in the way of the arrow to save, you know, the family member. Yeah.
Kerry Cullen [00:23:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. But has to be big and, you know, you know, And I I love poetry really helps me to re frame things and and to think about things differently. And there was 1 piece that David White again wrote about This and and I'll read you a little bit of it actually because he says, the measure of so he's talking about courage. And he says, the measure of our heartfelt Participation with life, with another, with a community, a work, a future. To be courageous is not necessarily to go anywhere or do anything, except to make conscious Those things we already feel deeply, and then to live through the unending vulnerability of those Consequences. Yeah. So, you know, and, and, and when I let that land, That really helps me to think about, you know, so so so, you know, a short version of that is is courage is really living close to what's in your heart.
Kerry Cullen [00:24:29]:
You know? What are you actually feeling? But that doesn't mean then, if we look at that from self worth, that you always have to feel like it's Working out then, do you know? Or it doesn't have to be this linear path. All we have to do is just stay Close to to what we're really feeling. So so that really helps me then think about, you know, it's yes. It it doesn't always matter what it looks like and it might not always make sense, but are you staying close to To those feelings. And he says a little bit more about that, that to be courageous is to see tough feelings deeply in the body and in the world, And to live up to live up and into the necessity of relationships that often already exist.
James Glover [00:25:19]:
Yeah. I I love the, I love the the the kind of the emphasis of His language where he's he's really talking about the things that are already there, and and actually The investment in those things, seeing those things. And, you know, how many how many people have we both worked with where it's taken almost a traumatic event, like, you know, for brain surgery or or the potential for brain surgery, for example, For people to almost lift their head up and look around and go, what is important to me here? How close am I to those things? You know, and one of the great shames, I think, that we share in in working with people that are having those experiences is You didn't need to get to this point. And almost his words are just trying to say, are you aware? Do you know? Do you understand? What is really important to you regardless of what that is? And what level of investment are you making, putting in to those things when you're clear on it, regardless of of of fear that you may have. And and that's not to dismiss the fear, But it's to acknowledge that that's part of it. And actually the fear to your point, if I'm staying close to my feeling, the fear is telling you something. There there's information here. There is insight here.
James Glover [00:26:46]:
What is it? What's the insight? Because I probably need to access it, utilize it in some way. And so you you talked there about, you know, my my question's really around how how have you started to to anchor kind of self worth. And, you know, what are some of the experiences that have really helped shape that? And so I'm hearing a bit that Courage is almost a value that you hold where where and how am I being courageous, and what does that look like? And the kind of the u Utilizing poetry is a way to be able to access and make sense of of that. Are there are there other examples for you around where and how you make sense of of Of where you find worth Yeah.
Kerry Cullen [00:27:29]:
What what's been really helpful for me over the last number of years is studying Celtic Mythology and understanding more about cycles. That has been very helpful to me. So for example, in Celtic mythology. They would say that when we're born, that, you know, we come into this world and then our So is fragmented and that it has to fragment that, you know, it's part of the journey. So we come in and we know exactly what we're about, you know, But then there has to be this fragmentation. So then the journey then is around rediscovering and reclaiming those Parts of ourselves. So like you said, that it's already there. It's already within us.
Kerry Cullen [00:28:17]:
So I found that very helpful that it it's like, well, it's okay. We're all gonna feel lost sometimes. You know? That's part of the journey. And I think to know purpose, we also have to know what it's like to not actually feel like we have any purpose. You know, we've got to know both sides. So I find that really helpful that, you know, And also to think of it in cycles, but we can be just around the corner from from getting loads of clarity. You know? Hang in there. You know? Yeah.
Kerry Cullen [00:28:46]:
Yeah.
James Glover [00:28:47]:
And and and, also, like, what you're making me, kinda picture in my mind is is this sense of it's never done, but in a really good way. So, you know, the almost the idea of it never being done is, like, for there's a part of it going, what? God, that's exhausting. If I'm putting in all of this effort and I never get there, Like, what's the point? But, actually, every cycle, you are you are growing. You are learning. You are changing. You are seeing more. But It's not done because you don't know what's coming next. And that that almost the fact that the kind of the the nature of purpose allows you to kinda go into that unknown or is Pulling you into that unknown.
James Glover [00:29:25]:
We're going again. What what might it mean this time? What might be possible here? What could I see and experience?
Kerry Cullen [00:29:33]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And and that can feel uncomfortable too. Right? Because we can reach That point of, oh, I feel really focused and I'm really feeling on purpose, you know? And, And then you can, like in my own experience, you can start to get a feeling actually it's time to let this go now, Yeah. And that can be really hard, Savannah. Like, I know for myself, we launched a program last year around polyvagal for coaches, which which polyvagal theory, if if people haven't come across, it is well worth looking up. It's Steven Porges' theory. So we launched this last year, which went incredibly well.
Kerry Cullen [00:30:16]:
And Then we I just got this feeling then, actually, now that's that's enough. That's time to let that go and leave space for other stuff. That was very difficult to do because it made no logical sense. It was like, we built this up and, you know, it's got momentum. You built the program. You know? But it was this feeling again. It was like, no. It's time to let that go now.
Kerry Cullen [00:30:40]:
And then to live with the consequence of that of of actually Letting it go. You know?
James Glover [00:30:46]:
Yeah. And what's really coming through strongly, for me, Keri, in this conversation is you are talking about consequence, repeatedly talking about consequence, awareness of consequence, and more importantly, ownership of consequence. I think there's something really important for us maybe just to spend a moment on, which is, that level of accountability in this process. It's not like you're looking to anybody else here to kind of validate that. You were you're acknowledging the choices that you're making and owning them. How how has that become true for you? How have you been able to create a level of comfort with that discomfort?
Kerry Cullen [00:31:26]:
Yeah. I I suppose It's it's that feeling of will ignore that intuition at your peril. You know, if that, you know, if that feeling is there, you know, and and you know, you really know, We often do know, right, what what actually is calling us. But there's part of us that wants to, you know, ignore that or Put it away, you know, if if it feels uncomfortable. So I think it's that sense of of Stin, what's you know, trusting that feeling of, actually, this is what I need to do even though it feels uncomfortable And even though I now have to have some courageous conversations, you know, that that just that just feels like it's the the right thing to do.
James Glover [00:32:18]:
And and, again, if, you know, if I'm thinking about maybe some people who are who are listening and kind of really wrestling with, You know, the kind of the nature of our conversation, you and I use the word feeling every third word in every sentence. And for some people, They don't talk like that. They don't spend that time having those types of conversations. And and, actually, you know, the wrestle that you're describing here, trust. Trust is a feeling. Certainty certainty is a feeling. And and I guess what we're really trying to Shine a light on here is that we over index massively on, like, cognitive, rational, logical Thinking where we're where we're trying to create certainty because we want control, because we're actually, guess what, Fearful to some degree, which is another emotion. So we're we're kind of trying to offset, offset some some feelings that we're not paying attention to by over indexing on a set of cognitive processes that ultimately don't get us to the answer anyway.
James Glover [00:33:18]:
It's just effort that's kind of misplaced. And I think I guess, I I'm almost looking for kind of validation from you, if anything, that what we're trying to really kind of uncover and and show to people is that There is another way, and that other way requires some courage. Because, actually, When you tap into it and you pay attention to it and you make decisions based on it, you will then start to see, oh, wow. There's something in this. And the more that you do it, the more that you are able to trust it. Because more you'll be able to feel that information is just as valid as other information. And that then starts to create a different type of certainty. Right?
Kerry Cullen [00:34:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think to to be able to do that, We need to give ourselves some spaciousness. So I think I think it can be really challenging, you know, when we're we're go, you know, We're going fast, and we have a lot of tasks that we're trying to do. And, you know, and and we're focused on trying to get stuff done. And it's harder to hear than that that kind of that knowing that you have because it's easy, you know, it's Yeah. It's just harder to hear it when we're going faster, you know? So I think it does require some spaciousness in, in what, You know, be that that you're out in nature or whatever that means to to you. But it does it requires, yeah, a bit of spaciousness, Which is we have to stopped
James Glover [00:34:51]:
me in my tracks by saying spaciousness because the conversation that we had before we started To record this, you're just asking me how I was, and I was like, oh, I'm meshing the gears right now in between, you know, kind of holiday and time with family and kids and and, you know, kind of work. And I'm I'm sat here going, I'm in the struggle right now. I'm definitely going fast. I'm definitely going fast. And it's the exact opposite of what I need right now in this moment. And so I think this is the wonderful thing about other people and being able to get in conversations is that, you know, you can be triggered really quickly into, oh, yeah. Hey. I'm aware of this stuff, but actually, the speed and the pace has caught me in this moment.
James Glover [00:35:39]:
And, and I and I need to just Check myself.
Kerry Cullen [00:35:43]:
Yeah. And and and in our humans, that's what we do. Right? You know? So I think that's That's the thing I love around that idea of cycles as well is to have compassion for ourselves. That's part of the human journey, isn't it? You know? We do we we do kind of get off track, but then we can come back. You know? We can come home to ourselves. But part of the journey is that we lose it all.
James Glover [00:36:07]:
Yeah. That's
Kerry Cullen [00:36:08]:
what we do. And and I think
James Glover [00:36:10]:
that's some Celtic wisdom that you shared with me as well. Right? And I'm definitely gonna get the language wrong here. So, Hopefully, you can you can help keep me on track. But about about failing, about falling off, about imperfection, Actually, that's the kind of the source of greatest humanity.
Kerry Cullen [00:36:27]:
Well, that sounds great to me, James, what you've just said.
James Glover [00:36:33]:
I shouldn't have teed it up as anything else other than my own, should I? Yeah. Definitely.
Kerry Cullen [00:36:41]:
Yeah. Because you know, that's, it's, that's what we do. Isn't it. And then, and then to have compassion for ourselves about that and just notice, You know? And then we could come back. Yeah. So, yeah. Yes. Space and compassion.
Kerry Cullen [00:36:59]:
Yeah. And, and I love, that whole cycles of thinking in spirals, you know, that idea, Know that you mentioned it there that we can come back round again. So could I share 1, 1 more little quote with you? This is from, Marian Woodman. So she says, Linearity does not come naturally to me. It kills my imagination. Nothing happens. No bell rings. No moment of here and now.
Kerry Cullen [00:37:32]:
No moment that says yes. Without these I am not alive. I prefer the pleasure of the journey through the spiral. Relax. Enjoy the spiral. If you must miss something on the 1st round, Don't worry. You might pick it up on the 2nd or 3rd or 9th. It doesn't matter.
Kerry Cullen [00:37:55]:
Relax. Timing is everything. If the bell does ring it will resonate through all the rungs of your spiral. If it doesn't ring, it is the wrong spiral or the wrong time or there is no bell. You know, so We can always come back round again. You know?
James Glover [00:38:17]:
Yeah. And and that that I guess that makes me think about the kind of the The 3rd part of the the kind of the conversation really around leaps of faith. You know, how how kind of purpose can take us into the unknown? And I guess, Keri, you know, from from minute 1 of this conversation, you've been talking about leaps of faith. There's just something maybe intuitively within you that enabled you to just Do things you hadn't done before or, go for what felt right. You know, we're Over and above the those moments that you shared with us already, are there any others where you kind of really feel that leaps of faith have have kind of paid off For you. Yeah.
Kerry Cullen [00:38:58]:
Well, one thing that comes to mind, which felt like a leap of Faith at the time, it's about 12 years ago now. I got a really strong feeling that I needed to start Sea swimming. Really strong feeling. But I wasn't a sea swimmer and I couldn't even swim with my face in the water. So that, that, what happened then I, I, there was a group of swimmers in Donegal where I was living at the time. And at the time they We're only kind of serious sea swimmers, so there wasn't really dippers so much. So a leap of faith was was bound up having a conversation With them asking if I could join. And would I have to learn to put my face in the water? So that that that was a really that that was a really interesting journey, of of actually learning then to swim with my face in the water And get over the fear of being in the water and and then, you know, learning to swim with them.
Kerry Cullen [00:40:07]:
And and in in part of that was I I remember going into the pool on the 1st day, and I'm, like, hopping or hopping and popping up and down the pool. I like literally like this and I just couldn't do it at all and I remember coming out in tears actually because I had this really strong feeling, you know, this is really something I need to do. You know? And then being very moved because 2 of the women Came over and said, you're you're gonna get this stick at it. And they give me advice on how to, you know, how to work with this and overcome fear. And did it go back to the pool for about 6 weeks? I was like, no, that's it. You know, that's the end of this. And then I came across hero's journey As a model. And and in hero's journey, there's a which is that Joseph Campbell's work.
Kerry Cullen [00:40:56]:
And And he talks about the call of the soul. So you get this call to action. So like a call I need to start seesawing. And then you'll start that. But then you'll get this phase of What he calls going to ground, where you think you can't do it and you give up. And when I read that, I was, that's where I am. I've just given up, but I could carry on because the cycle continues and you it's almost like you get back on the horse and then you overcome the fear, you know? So I put the goggles back on, got back in the pool, and got there. You know? So so that's what come to mind.
Kerry Cullen [00:41:35]:
And and I love that framework.
James Glover [00:41:38]:
But what what has that given you? What you know, when you talk about, because, again, this is, like, the 3rd reference point of just had this really strong in intuitive feeling of action, of activity, of direction. When you look back at, certainly, the kind of the sea swimming element of that, you know, you can hear that cold and go, That what? Where where did she get that idea? Like, this this compulsion to be in the sea. And then the effort And the commitment and the determination in order to make that happen, all of that had to come from somewhere. So what what was it in you that that was saying that's important. And as you went through the journey of being able to master yourself to actually embrace The outcome that you were looking for, what did you learn? What did you understand about yourself and why that why sea swimming was important for you?
Kerry Cullen [00:42:36]:
Well, I think it's back to what David White says about those, that vulnerability, the unending vulnerability of consequences. I learned so much about myself in that journey from, you know, trying to keep up with those other swimmers, you know, Instead of actually trusting my own pace and, you know, encountering the fear of, you know, jellyfish and all that kind of stuff. And and also then needing other people because we train to do this crossing across the bay. And you've got Kayakers. And your mind tells you because you're looking at the pier, so you wanna go for the pier. You know? But if you do that, you're gonna end up like a half a kilometre off Down the lock. So you need the kayakers to keep you on track. And so so it it taught me So much.
Kerry Cullen [00:43:27]:
You know? It was yeah. It but the yeah. There was just this deep hole that this is just something that I have to do. You know? That's all I can describe it as really. And then once I got on the journey, I was just on it. You know? It's like I'm playing.
James Glover [00:43:41]:
And I and I think, again, what, you know, what really speaks to me is this this idea that, purpose creates a sense of faith and belief in what's possible. You have no idea whether or not you could see swim, but, actually, that's not a reason for not doing it and not going there and not trying. Yeah. There's this this sense of, faith and belief in that that could be possible, and that it's worth The leap of faith. It's worth going into the unknown because of what may be beyond this point of understanding. Yeah.
Kerry Cullen [00:44:16]:
And then there can be that time where you just feel like you can't do it, you know, that you, that you, you're giving up on this. And I, I love that framework in hero's journey of, you know, when I feel that now in a process, you know, where I've started on something And then I hit that space of I can't do this. It's really helpful to think of it in that cycle Cool. Okay. That's just where I am right now. I've gone to Grant. This is part of the process. I'm on track.
James Glover [00:44:46]:
Yeah. So, Kerry, I just, You know, I I think this is a really wonderful moment just to kinda pause in our conversation, really, and just kind of reflect On some of the key messages that you've shared here, you know, this, powerful sense of intuition and being able to create a level of, trust in in what that is telling you, and that requiring courage, and actually courage being the source of self worth for you now. I I pay attention to those moments and I pay attention to those feelings because I know there'll be consequences, But I'm ready to own them. And that, actually, you see and experience all of this in kind of a circular, a cyclical spiraling kind of nature and that things are gonna come around and that the right timing will present itself. And that within that, there'll be moments of absolute clarity and certainty, and there'll be moments of Commitment and, and faith. And then there'll be moments of absolute terror and flatness and, and disconnection. Absolutely. But trusting that it'll come back round again.
James Glover [00:46:01]:
And so I think for all of those that are listening, Hopefully, you've just heard a deeply so soulful expression of what purpose really is as a Felt experience and what it can create for us in a world of deep uncertainty. So, Keri, massive, massive thank you for for taking the time to be with us and in this conversation today.
Kerry Cullen [00:46:24]:
Oh, well, thank you so much, James. An absolute pleasure to talk could talk to you all day.
James Glover [00:46:30]:
Yeah. You and I might get loads out of that because we'd love it. But for everybody else, they might have other stuff to do. So, you know, we'll let them go do that. Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the Excitable Soul podcast. If you are interested in Uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose. Come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitable soul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode.
James Glover [00:46:57]:
Have an incredible day.