Episode #43 Amy Shaw
Finding a Way: Lessons on Meaning, Family, and Leadership with Amy Shaw
Welcome to The Excitable Soul Podcast, where we dive deep into stories of purpose, resilience, and the journeys that shape who we are. In this episode, we sit down with Amy Shaw who is an inspiring HR leader, performance coach, and founder of Findaway HR, to uncover how life’s most significant moments can help us unlock our own sense of meaning and direction.
From her early days navigating personal challenges as a teenager, to leading teams through high-stakes projects and the chaos of the COVID-19 pandemic, Amy brings wisdom and authenticity to every space she enters. She shares openly about the powerful lessons learned from both triumph and loss, including the impact of losing her son and the surprising clarity she found through adversity.
Amy opens up about her experience with the Executive Purpose Immersion Program and the practical steps that helped her “connect the dots” of her life’s journey. Through stories of family, career, and the quiet influence of her grandfather, Amy explores how we can all find a way forward, even in the toughest times.
Whether you’re wrestling with your own sense of purpose or just looking for some honest inspiration, this conversation promises to move and motivate. So grab a hot drink of choice, settle in, and get ready to be part of a meaningful conversation that reminds us all: finding purpose is a journey, not a destination.
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Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the Excitable Soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:44]:
So let's get going, shall we? Hello, everybody, and welcome. Today's guest is Amy Shaw, somebody who brings a whole lot of heart, a ton of wisdom, and a quiet kind of courage to everything that she does. Amy spent the last twenty years doing what many of us hope to do, loving her work, making a difference, and helping organizations grow by unlocking the potential of their people. Her journey starts out like many of ours, graduating with literally no idea what came next, but a move to London and a lucky break at Arab turned out to be a spark. It was there working across finance and HR that she realized something important. It was the people side of the business, the human stories, the relationships, the potential that really lit her up. She's never looked back. Since then, she's built an incredible career in HR spanning engineering, construction, finance, and tech.
James Glover [00:01:36]:
She's led through high stakes projects like Alder Hey Children's Hospital and Manchester Airport and through the chaos of COVID, taking on the challenge of leading a team that she hadn't even met in person yet. But like many of us, she also hit a moment where she paused and asked, where do I wanna be? What is my purpose? And that question brought her to the executive purpose immersion program, and I've had the privilege of walking part of that journey with her. Out of that experience came something truly powerful for Amy, a purpose statement that isn't just beautifully crafted, but deeply lived, to help others unlock opportunity and talent so they can break new ground. It's a purpose that doesn't just show up in a professional life as a people director at Roma Finance and the founder of her own consultancy, Findaway HR, but also in her personal life as a mom of two rugby loving teenage boys guiding them to discover their own dreams and to forge their own paths. She's the kind of leader who brings humanity into every room. She sees possibility where others see problems and who reminds us what great HR can really be about. I'm excited to have her with us today. Enjoy.
James Glover [00:02:44]:
Alright, ladies and gents. Welcome back to the Excitable Soul podcast. Got Amy with me today. Hey, Amy. How are you feeling?
Amy Shaw [00:02:52]:
Yeah. Good. Thank you. Afternoon.
James Glover [00:02:54]:
Yeah. Well, you and I both at the end of the week, like cups of coffee, cups of tea, just kinda catching up. We've basically eaten into most of our recording time. We're just catching up because we've not seen each other in we spoke to each other in ages.
Amy Shaw [00:03:08]:
Sounds good.
James Glover [00:03:09]:
We we thought we better, keep a little bit of, of what we were chatting about for the actual, the actual podcast itself. So, yeah, how's your day?
Amy Shaw [00:03:17]:
Yeah. It's going good. Sun shining in sunny Manchester, which I can't normally say that. So, yeah, that's one. What I've heard for the North.
James Glover [00:03:26]:
I spent a a solid eighteen months, in the lead up to the twenty twelve Olympic Games supporting Taekwondo in Manchester, and I don't think I ever went across to Manchester and it not rained. It didn't matter when it was. It was raining all the time.
Amy Shaw [00:03:40]:
Apparently, we live in a lake. So
James Glover [00:03:42]:
Is that right?
Amy Shaw [00:03:43]:
Yep. Yeah. Costa Del Lake. No. It's it's we've had great weather this week, but, yeah, look at us already talking about the weather.
James Glover [00:03:50]:
Yeah. I know. Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. So, Amy, you you have, a kind of a a special connection to us at the excitable soul in that you are a real pioneer around the the immersive experience that we created, one where we really wanna give people the space and time to kind of wrestle with who they are and what's really meaningful to them and how do they understand that and then kind of use it in their lives. So and you're the first of our of our kind of pioneers to to come and be on the podcast. So it feels like a real treat to be able to to kind of talk to you about your journey and your experience around purpose.
Amy Shaw [00:04:27]:
Yeah. I was so lucky to have that experience. And when you suggested well, you you know, you said, would you be interested? I was like, yes. So there wasn't any hesitation. And then I was like, I'll figure it out afterwards, but it's just yes. And I think I replied by instantly, went, yes. Don't know how. Don't know when.
Amy Shaw [00:04:45]:
I'll sort it out. I was like, yes. And you were like, okay. Good.
James Glover [00:04:48]:
Brilliant. We're in. Yeah. And I love and and I'm wondering if that were that experience was maintained, Amy, whether or not that immediate reaction of yes, let's do it was the same emotion that you had as you were leading in to kind of arriving at the thing itself, whether there was any fear or trepidation that just kind of started to show up for you at all?
Amy Shaw [00:05:07]:
Oh, there was there was definitely nerves. Always is when you arrive at something with a group of people you don't know and you know you're gonna you know, I'm a sharer. I've always been a sharer, so I knew I was gonna have that kind of great journey and especially with yourself. But, yeah, definitely nervous but excited, and it was an amazing location as well. I think, yeah, I think I spent the first hour just, like, looking around, gawping about, oh, this is amazing. So I think the intro to that was just brilliant.
James Glover [00:05:33]:
Amazing. So we'll we'll definitely, we can definitely kinda check-in with that. But I guess the, the kind of the opportunity here is really just to kind of mine your experiences and, you know, how how have you, a, been able to kind of really uncover that sense of purpose and then make sense of it? You know, what were the things that really helped you start to see and understand where and how you find meaning and the contribution that you wanna make around it? Then what was the impact of that for you? Like, you know, within that journey, what were the things that were were were kind of were most powerful, the ones that really helped create breakthroughs? And I guess we're we always start with the kind of the look back, the kind of the journey to to date. So I'm wondering if you could kind of give us a bit of that unique perspective of the the the kind of the work done to start to uncover purpose. What was it that really showed up for you in that element of the work?
Amy Shaw [00:06:27]:
Yeah. I think, my my biggest memory was the connecting the dots bit. That was the there was just straight away. I think it was it was one of the first exercises we did, and it was a huge moment, light bulb moment. And I'd it's one of those timelines. And, I mean, I know you know this, but it's like the positives it looks like a heart to kinda beat positives at the top, negatives at the bottom. And then you got us to talk about the positives and the events and then the the negative events and then put the themes to them. And there was just this real, I think, moment for me where I was like, oh my god.
Amy Shaw [00:07:07]:
All these things had happened along the way. I think, like most people, positive are negative, and I'm happy to talk about, in particular, a couple of ones that really impacted me. There was just themes throughout all of it that really kind of came through loud and clear that I'd never seen before. So I'd done that timeline before, but I'd never done it and mapped the themes and talked about kind of, you know, what was showing up for you during those events. And there was just this real realisation that the negative ones had really shaped the positive. And then when we went against, when some other big life changing things had happened, I'd learned from that and then taken it forward, and then it impacted my work. And there was just these themes that came out, and straight away I could see. Right? I was like, yo.
Amy Shaw [00:07:53]:
Your job is done. Right?
James Glover [00:07:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. You it was easy for us.
Amy Shaw [00:07:59]:
It wasn't because after that, there was a lot of work to be done, but there was just this yeah. And I think there was just, you know, some moments during that. There was big kind of like, wow. I knew these life changing events had happened to me, but I wasn't sure how it shaped me. And it just really solidified it for me in that kind of I think there was a a morning we spent on that.
James Glover [00:08:22]:
And it would it'd be wonderful if, if you could do two things for us. One is give us an example of, you know, the two experiences or a couple of experiences that that you were reflecting on and then how they then aggregated up into themes. So they would what what was the the dots that were connected? Because, you know, if you're if you're kind of listening to this, there's like a, alright. Cool. That sounds like an interesting experience you had, but, like, what what does that practically look like? So how how yeah. What were the stories? And then how did that data translate into meaning and you were able to kinda make sense of it in a different way?
Amy Shaw [00:08:56]:
Yeah. So there was two in particular. And the first one was around I think I was about 15. And, unfortunately, for me, my mom and dad decided to leave each other pretty much on the same day, but there was no mobile phones at that time. So they kinda just disappeared overnight and didn't tell each other. And I had a an 11 year old sister, a 13 year old sister, and an older sister who was quite chronically ill, and they just disappeared. So overnight, I was then home alone, basically. It was that version, but a little bit more crazier.
Amy Shaw [00:09:28]:
This massive house on my own, no parents with sisters going, now what? And there was just that was a real hard moment anyway because you're realizing that your parents are splitting up, But also that, okay. So I need to step into this. You know, I took the responsible kind of role. You know, younger sisters were very young. My older sister wasn't well, so it was kinda like, right. Okay. It's me. It's it's me to do this.
Amy Shaw [00:09:53]:
And there was there was themes that were coming out there around the just I have to find a way to just survive this over the next I think we managed to hide it from social services for quite a few months. Ordered a lot of Gino's pizzas, so, yeah, I'm not sure I've done that. But, yeah, there was I had GCSEs coming up, which I massively failed, but that was okay at the time. I just wanted to survive this with my sisters, and and it was just the, okay. I've gotta find a way to get through this. What do I need to do? You know, what do I what do I need to help them? And just those finding that kind of resilience and tools and not just wallowing it. Probably not realising at the time I maybe should have reached out to family and told them and got some more help, but we didn't because we just managed it between the four of us and had a bit of fun in a massive house. Shortly after that, things kind of, you know, my parents realised they had probably disowned us a little bit and came back into it and, you know, took a bit more responsibility back.
Amy Shaw [00:10:52]:
And, but then it all came crashing down anyway because they got divorced. It was messy. A lot of alcohol involved. Splitting up my sisters, one male sister, living with my dad. And but there was just at the time, I never, like, felt begrudged them, but I took a real sense of responsibility around that and, you know, felt like, yeah, this is something I need to do. I need to look after them. I failed most of my GCSEs. Thank you, mom and dad.
Amy Shaw [00:11:21]:
But, again, there was a theme that came out around me then, okay, go not getting too, you know, like, woe is me around the GCSEs. Either just finding a solution. So, okay, go go again, retake them, bounce back. And there was a real change in that going forward, in terms of then that led on to me going, okay. I'll redo my GCSEs, and I did. Got a lot of them. Did college, got that, and then I went to university. So things were still messy at home, but there was just something around.
Amy Shaw [00:11:51]:
Okay. Something quite horrendous can happen, but you can find a way out with just some connections, some solutions. And so that was one. And then that, I think, like I say, the timeline that really helped me when I was working with you on was around probably the next big piece was, I think, you know, what's the pivotal moment? What's something that changed your world that you think the world is never gonna be the same again? And and that's when I connected the dots to what happened then happened what happened then next, which was several years later, married, had a beautiful son in Finlay, and then I was pregnant with my second son, Cameron. And then, unfortunately, he died. So he passed away, thirteen years ago. And that is when my world absolutely imploded again. And that was the point that I just thought, right, how do we how do we come back from this? It was another moment where I just sat there going, right.
Amy Shaw [00:12:52]:
Oh, crap. You know, this is horrendous. And it was. It's everybody's probably death is everyone's worst nightmare, parents, you know, and then to lose a son and think, right, you've got to find a way to get through that or you don't. So there was a moment where I was like and I also had Finley looking at me, and I was like, I had no responsibility to him as well. He was you know? I was like, yeah. And all my family, we were all devastated. But there was just something in me that I just thought, right.
Amy Shaw [00:13:26]:
Okay. I've got to find a way to get out of this. I don't want it to define me. I don't want it to destroy me. I don't want it to be the end of my marriage or or ruin I don't want Finley to say in twenty years' time. All I remember is mum was just really unhappy for a very long time. So, again, it was like, what do I need to do? I needed to, you know, get some help, so I got counselling. I started running.
Amy Shaw [00:13:49]:
I'm not a good runner, by the way.
James Glover [00:13:51]:
You and me both get you and me both.
Amy Shaw [00:13:52]:
It doesn't last long.
James Glover [00:13:55]:
But
Amy Shaw [00:13:55]:
I did running. I ran a lot. I moved back home. We were living in London, and we moved back home to Manchester to be around family. So that, again, I knew I wanted that those connections, that, you know, that love around us. I got some help in how to explain to Finley that he didn't have a baby brother anymore. There was all these things that that we did. I actually slowly but surely started coming out of it again, and that was the bit that I realized through all these journeys.
Amy Shaw [00:14:23]:
And then I got my wonderful role at Lanai Roark, and I just it wasn't that long after it happened. And this amazing place that I started working in took kind of those challenges, and I found a really great platform to go, okay, so I've survived that. I know I'm I know I'm I know I'm strong. I know I'm resilient. And then had this great work experience as well. So I kinda came back through it again going, right. Okay. In this amazing company that love innovation, love people to thrive, love people to have potential.
Amy Shaw [00:14:53]:
And I was like, well, I've just come through that. So if, you know, I can apply that here. And there was definitely that moment of being able to connect the two, back in Manchester. And, you know, you know, it still hurt a lot, still a lot of grief there. But definitely some real connection between actually what happened with the mum and dad splitting up. And then when that happened, I felt like it has a lot of cake. You know, I got some real great lessons from that time to then with this one. And then it transpired into the work as well because I knew I've thought, you know, the two together, I thought I can kick that ass.
Amy Shaw [00:15:35]:
I can kick this one as a, you know, as a family. And and then and then, also, I just, I felt super grateful because we'd gone through this horrific thing with losing Cameron, but also had Finlay. And I was always so grateful to having him. And then shortly after that, we had Fraser. So I was never, like, thinking, you know, this is the worst thing that could happen because, actually, we were still so lucky. And people struggled with that a little bit in terms of me thinking that, but I I stand by that. You know, we even now, when I look at the pair of them and how we've managed through that as a family and then how that's continued to help future events, which, you know
James Glover [00:16:18]:
so first things first, like, thank you for for being willing to share that and talk about these stories. I think, the the kind of the significance of being able to just reflect on, on the experiences that you've had and be able to make sense of them in a way that allows you to learn from them is is just incredible. But also then be willing to kind of share that with a level of kind of of just raw vulnerability. These things were really hard and they were really difficult, and this is how I faced into them because these were the things I was saying to myself internally and in the moment, is is massive. So so firstly, thank you for just kind of being willing to to share in that way. I think what what would be really wonderful, I'm just like scribbling, like, stuff, and I and I wanna, like, hold out for a second before diving in with two feet. But, you know, part of the part of the work around really being able to to to to use purposes, what was the meaning in those experiences that you really took for them in that kind of reflective process? So when we talk about connecting the dots, when we talk about elevating the, like, the themes that felt like they were consistent over time, what were the things that you then started to see that then became really kind of powerful and useful for you because you're like, oh, if that's been consistent over those events, then I wonder what or how they might be consistent going forwards.
Amy Shaw [00:17:44]:
Yeah. It was there was find a way always came out. It always came out, like, to every event. So it was always like, crack on as well, but I don't mean that's a time to go. I know that's quite a norm, but crack on with it. Yeah. Just crack on. Yeah.
Amy Shaw [00:18:03]:
The finding a way part definitely stood out as a common theme. But, also, I could see there was a theme about me looking for who I needed around me, the resources and tools, whether it was at work, and the purpose of actually, if I can do this, if I can, you know, how can I help others, you know, also find create conditions for them and tools and resources and connections for them, opportunities for them to actually take some of the things that I've gone through? There was nothing more than I love sometimes. There was a you know, when I knew I'd silently help someone, whether it was, like, you know, get promoted or recruit somebody who was phenomenal or, just help with the really, really sticky situations because, you know, in the world of people and HR, you tend to deal with some really wonderful things, but you also don't get a lot of complex things that are really important. They're not always the nice things, but it's really important about how you deal with them and and, you know, deal with them as honestly, transparently as you can. And taking some of my learnings and able to apply that to helping others was something that started just coming out in terms of being really passionate around, you know, finding ways. I started to notice it personally as well. Like, just at home, I think there was definitely seeping out with my kids in terms of their passion for their sport, and we've talked about it before, and we bored everybody around that would be journeys. But, just okay, I'd sit there scratching my head again, reflecting on them.
Amy Shaw [00:19:43]:
Well, actually, okay, what can I do with them? It was the same at work. It was the same at home, without trying to go around coaching them. But silently again, and this is the thing is, you know, I've come on to kind of a role model for me that always kinda stood out to me, but just trying to figure out what do people need. You know? What do they need to unlock? Everybody's got potential. Everyone's got you know, can do new things, try new things. If I've done it, everyone can do it. But what do people need? And it's really I I love that process of trying to figure it out, and that's something that the purpose through all those events and themes kinda started to stand out to me. And as I kinda went through, like, things I've done personally, at work, with the family.
Amy Shaw [00:20:31]:
There was just like, okay. So this is this is my thing. This is what I do.
James Glover [00:20:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amy Shaw [00:20:36]:
And where I'm most happiest even during really not necessarily great times, but, actually, if I can apply some of that and help others, whoever it is, you know, then that's when I feel the most kind of, like, the meaning part and yeah.
James Glover [00:20:54]:
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. And so what's what's really powerful for this for me just even kind of hearing you talk about all of this again is just the kind of the evolution that that has taken place in terms of the sense that you make around it now and how you can interact and how you can kind of utilize it. I think this is one of the things that anybody can take away here is that, like, purpose is ultimately an outcome. It doesn't it's an outcome of some stuff. Like, it doesn't have to be this grand transformational, like, aspiration.
James Glover [00:21:27]:
It can be, but it doesn't have to be. Actually, very simply, it's, you know, where and how do I understand the meaningful experiences that have shaped who I am and how they're still important and significant to me, and then how I can utilize them, how I can contribute to them. And listening to you talk about, you know, being 15 years old and all of a sudden realizing I need to be responsible. Like, you you know, you talk use that word, I need to do this. Like, big sister can't, little sisters can't. Like, I need to do this. I need to be the one in this space and finding a way, finding a way through it. Did we eat a little bit too much pizza? Yes.
James Glover [00:22:04]:
We did. But that was okay because that was part of us finding our way through and finding our way through to the point where other people could realize what their sense of responsibility was in that and kind of come come back to it. And it it's interesting when you said about, like, cracking on, crack on. Because what I actually heard you talk about or the language you used was going again. So, alright, I failed my GCSEs. But you know what? I'm going again. If I can do if I can do this, I can I can figure it out? I can sort it out. I can go again.
James Glover [00:22:33]:
And then, you know, thinking about how that connects in with with Cameron and the experiences that you had there in terms of, like, how do I find a way through this? Here here are the challenges that I'm seeing here. I don't want this to define me. I don't want it to destroy my marriage. I don't want it to have a negative impact on my son. How do I find a way through all of that? And, and interestingly enough, and this is gonna sound pretty crass, I think, so apologies to everybody, but you went again. Fraser came along shortly, didn't he?
Amy Shaw [00:23:04]:
Oh, yeah. We did.
James Glover [00:23:05]:
You you know? But but, like, I'm being pretty flippant about that, and we're laughing here, but the I can only imagine the emotion of making that choice
Amy Shaw [00:23:16]:
Yes. It was hard.
James Glover [00:23:17]:
Going through that experience and then everything that everything that went with all of that. So, again, that kind of sense of, well, we're going again and we're finding a way through.
Amy Shaw [00:23:26]:
Yeah. And you're you're right because that that was a terrifying decision because it was always playing on the back of mind. You know? I don't wanna lose another child. And, but, yeah, the going again bit. There you go. There's an there's an add on. And there's a there was also this you know when people say who do you look up to? Who are your role models? On the program, I think what was amazing was just we went a little bit deeper on that bit. It was like, oh, who are they and why are they and why did they impact you? And again, there was that moment of realising, actually, you know you've got these role models.
Amy Shaw [00:23:57]:
You know there's people of impact in life, but why did they? How did they? And then how did that kind of filter through to my choices and then my purpose as well? And I think there was a real, I think, moment of reflection around, you know, if someone says really quickly, who do you look up to? Who impact you? Who's your role models? And, you know, how did they help you shape things? I wrote our real people are. But there was actually, on the program, we did real work about what was it and a real moment of there was a figure in my life, and it was my granddad. And he was really special to me, and I I know grandparents are. But, actually, what was it that was so special? And it wasn't just his, you know, big hugs and things like that. It was, like, actually really powerful background from him. He was a World War two hero. He got a King George medal, but no one ever really knew about it until a lot later on in life. And I remember him being interviewed on his hundredth birthday when the RAF did a flyer for him, and there was newspaper articles.
Amy Shaw [00:25:00]:
And he was in, cooking with heroes book and everything and he just couldn't understand it and he was just like, well, what's the big deal? He was like, I'm no hero. I'm just the guy that came back home. And he just did everything so he was just so resilient. His wife died very young as well, so my mum's mum. And, again, he just he cracked on with it. He got on with it. I think he even had a girlfriend. Yeah.
Amy Shaw [00:25:31]:
But actually realizing on the program how much actually his, like, he impacted me. And I never really went that deep to realize that history of him and who he was, his resilience, how he just never really told his tale. He just did it and never made a big deal of it, really then impacted me and how I wanted to then do that for others and it not be, you know
James Glover [00:25:58]:
And that was the, like, that was the word that you've used today. Again, like, this this idea of silently. Silently seeing, silently acting.
Amy Shaw [00:26:07]:
And I didn't know that until we did the program. I come and figure out sometimes, you know, why do I do things and then, you know, sometimes never say anything? And then I'm like, I know exactly why now. And that came apparent during the program. It was like it's because I had this awesome role model who showed me, you know, like, how to be resilient, but also you can do all these amazing things, but actually just doesn't need shouting about necessarily do it for the right reasons. And that's what we do, I think he used to say.
James Glover [00:26:38]:
That's what we do. Love it. Love it. Like you are, you are a walking, talking, like strap line, like, oh, there's just what we do. Go it again. Poof. By the way, like, wow, just to kind of you're in the wrong job. Forget people.
James Glover [00:26:52]:
Go into marketing. Yeah. Wait till the moment, Glover. I think it's because I'd like I'm I'm actually feeling the emotion of you telling the story of your grandfather again. Like, the fact that somebody can be at their hundredth birthday, a, life goal for me. Can you get to, like, the three digits? Because how amazing would that be for sure? So he's like, there he is celebrating a century, on the on the planet. The RAF of giving him a fly pass, that's the level of significance that he holds to that institution. And he's like, what? Who?
Amy Shaw [00:27:25]:
Me? That's good.
James Glover [00:27:27]:
Why? What's going on? Like, I remember us talking about it just going, how what? Like, this kind of that level of sort of humility and integrity just doesn't exist really in in the kind of the visible society that we operate in most of the time, does it? But look look how much it's valued.
Amy Shaw [00:27:48]:
Yeah. And, yeah, he was an amazing guy, and I learned more and more about him through the years, but probably spent more time learning about more about him after that when I realized the impact. So I was like, I need to come really get to know him and get to know, you know, why he impacted me so much. But yeah. Yes. Yeah. Shout out to him then. But yeah.
James Glover [00:28:09]:
Amazing. So you've just done a really wonderful job here of really being able to practically help us understand how we go how we how we find, like, meaning, how we find and start to, shape our sense of purpose, which is, firstly, you gotta tell you gotta tell the stories. You gotta go back through the experience. Like, that's the data. Right? It's the information. And then as you're telling them and you're sharing them, what starts to surface is you're telling them enough is there are these these themes that that kind of are popping up. And what what what are the dots? How do we connect the dots? What does that look like? In in this situation, you're just sharing, like, three examples, really, but you can see, oh, what's flies into the surface? Well, there is something about finding a way that is really critical. And this this is, I think, is the other thing that's magic is people are like, oh, what's the theme? Is that the same as values? Like, because we're talking about responsibility and resilience, and we're like, where do your values come from? What what informs them? What gives them the emotional significance that means they are your values? It's the things that we've used to find meaning.
James Glover [00:29:12]:
So finding a way is critical absolutely critical and that drives the sense of responsibility. It might drive a sense of, of of of integrity or humility when you're talking about doing it silently because it doesn't need to be something that shouted about. Look at all the things I've done and not everybody needs to know about all the things I've done, but I've done them. And because I've done them, that's gonna enable me to help other people be able to do them. Wallop. Like, that's massive. And also this sense of, I love it. Like, the cracking on going again is is is mega because you think about how that drives behavior.
James Glover [00:29:45]:
You think about how that shapes the way in which you see the world. Right? It's possibility. It's about what's next. And in terms of resilience, that the ability to be able to, transcend and include, hold on to all of the things that are really important, but let go of the things that aren't so you can continue to move forward, massive.
Amy Shaw [00:30:05]:
Yeah. No. It was an opportunity came out as well. I think that was the other theme.
James Glover [00:30:09]:
Yeah.
Amy Shaw [00:30:10]:
Always looking for an opportunity. Not not for Genesee just for me, but for others as well.
James Glover [00:30:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. Opportunities. Right. Wicked. So that was kinda some of the journey into, like, the discovery and the kind of the understanding bit. How have you been interacting and utilizing that that since, you know, since you started to become aware of that, how has that then helped you?
Amy Shaw [00:30:33]:
Yes. There was a couple of things. There was, I think, the misalignment part was something else that stood out going so forward after that was the bit that didn't serve me. So, actually, there's a real realisation around, okay. So now I've got this idea of what actually where I feel meaningful is where I didn't feel meaningful, but actually having a real courage to stop doing things. So there was, you know, those things around not so much comparing myself to others. I was awful for it for a long time, you know, constantly looking like, well, they're doing that job or they've got that role or I I should be there. That's where I should be.
Amy Shaw [00:31:14]:
And I I think I think we did a little bit of work together, and you were always like, why? Why do you keep doing that to yourself? And I'm like, well, I wanna be my lawyer. I won that role. I wanna be doing this. And you were like, why? And then I think there was that bit where, actually, my purpose was coming through in other ways, So I no longer seek to continually compare myself and beat myself around the, you know, the head with, like, I really wanna do that role. I really wanna do this, or I haven't got that. Or and then it was around also not getting so wound up about people's opinions and things. So there was it's not that people's opinions don't matter because they do, but it it's around how that bit for me is around another light bulb moment on the program is when I realized why I have so much tension sometimes over my career and why I've maybe bumped against each other. And it's you really helped me realize that it's because I've got my my purpose shaped there, and then other people have theirs in your that tension that it creates when things aren't quite aligned.
Amy Shaw [00:32:18]:
And that's okay. Because before, it wasn't okay. I'd fight it. I'd fight all of it. I'd argue it. I'd feel like I had to. I had to. You know? I was like, they're going into battle on things and wanted you know? And, actually, there was that bit after us going, you know what? It's alright.
Amy Shaw [00:32:35]:
It's okay if, actually, that's not working out, whether it's something I've suggested or something I put forward or a job I've gone for or, you know, some work I'm doing with a director or something I'm doing at home. And, actually, it was just that it's okay for it to not be okay and lean more towards what feels okay to what aligns more. So there was, you know, things around the work I do and also the choices I've made. So I know that if I choose to do something that isn't aligned to my purpose and actually I'm feeling a bit frustrated, that's a choice I've made. I now have an awareness. When I've chosen to do something that isn't probably quite there, I have no right to get annoyed or frustrated because I've chosen that as a choice. Now the reasons could be right from my choices, but, so it's just really helped me having a real awareness, I'd say, up on everything and give myself some space to reflect on things, come away,
James Glover [00:33:41]:
reflect. Nice. How do you how do you utilise it then, Amy? Like so, you know, you talk about, the kind of the gap and the misalignment and the the awareness bit I'm hearing is really there's like two there's almost two elements to it. There's a do I see the consequence of the choices that I well, do I see the choices that I have a choice in the first instance? And then do I see the consequence of those choices? And am I okay with the consequences or not? Because actually, I can make a set of choices, as you say, that might not necessarily be aligned to my purpose, but I'm actually okay with that. And it's okay to go in that direction. And if it is misaligned and the consequence isn't, you know, what I maybe hoped, then actually, I can still own that because, you know, there's there's something in there about, about why those choices and those decisions were made in the first place. So the kind of the awareness element is something there about kind of about choices. The other thing that you talked about was how it allows you to to kind of find a different perspective.
James Glover [00:34:38]:
So there's awareness, yes, and and insight into kind of ownership of choices, but then there's something about perspective which is I can now let go of. And, you know, all of us struggle in different points in times continually with the need to be able to let go of stuff. So how does it how does it help you do that? Like, what ways are you tapping into, connecting with, making visible your purpose so you can go, you know what? Actually, I don't need that.
Amy Shaw [00:35:08]:
Yeah. So I don't always do it straight away. I'm not gonna lie. There are moments where I can probably if I'm being really honest, I probably I can feel it it it could be in anything. It could be it could be in something I put forward in a meeting or, it could be I'm trying to, yeah, not make it just theoretical, but, you know, say if I put something forward and I've I've gone in and I feel really passionate about something, And I know straight away when I'm starting to feel that it's not my purpose isn't you know, it's not maybe aligned because I I feel my body language going a bit. I feel yeah. And I know straight I think others probably could tell you now. I've put people that know me quite well because they were just starting to fold the wrongs.
Amy Shaw [00:35:59]:
It it's a physical thing sometimes I can and my probably my emotions on my face as well. Again, like, I probably could say at work and, you know, at home, most people probably get the measure in me quite quickly because I wear my heart on my sleeve. You know, even somebody I've only just started working with recently said, well, if you could just do that piece of work, and I know it's not what you love and what you want to really thrive and help us with. But get that bit done, and then we'll do the good stuff. It's your purpose. See, and I've never been working with him that long, but he already knows.
James Glover [00:36:31]:
Yeah.
Amy Shaw [00:36:31]:
Yeah. And I never told him, but he knows exactly in the bit that he was talking about. It's fun. It's the bit I love. It's the the opportunity, the potential, the development,
James Glover [00:36:41]:
the creative conditions. But I love this. Like, I love the the the, the way in which you kind of express that is it it's in it's in my body. Like, it's in my I know in my body, and people will see it in my body language. And those that know me well and and it turns out they don't even need to know you well because it's so clear that it's something that you've just started working with. But, again, I think there's something really raw and powerful for for people to to to kinda take in this is that, you know, purpose is a felt experience. Right? Meaning is a felt experience. And when you're in alignment with that, you feel a level of alignment with that.
James Glover [00:37:18]:
And when it is when there is a lack of alignment or incongruency somewhere, you feel that. And so if we're not paying attention to it, then it gets stored up and stacked up somewhere. And the fact that for you, you're so clear on the fact that it's within your within your physicality that other people can see it, that's like that's mega.
Amy Shaw [00:37:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's been it's definitely people can see it. I think I think, yeah, there's not many people that probably couldn't spot it.
James Glover [00:37:49]:
And so how is like, there's something here about it, like, in the moment purpose is serving you as a way to be able to to kind of reflect and to be able to make sense of different situations and scenarios. How is it also guiding you? How is it guiding the kind of the choices and the the way in which you're looking forward and into the future?
Amy Shaw [00:38:10]:
It's kind of like my North Star. So it's it's on everything. It's on again, this talking to you today has given me time to really reflect and go back through things and think about choices I've made since we did the program. And I've definitely made some very obvious choices around, you know, studying I've wanted to do. So as a really good example, you know, I knew I wanted to do some studying. I wanted to do some more learning. And, you know, I had two options, and one was just a very, kind of, you know, employment law type thing. And one was around being more disruptive HR.
Amy Shaw [00:38:51]:
It was a chief people officer course. It's called disruptive HR. And it is about, you know, breaking new ground, finding a way, being more innovative. So I had these two courses to choose from, and one was, probably would have benefited my consultancy side of the business maybe. Well, then my passion and what I felt strongly about was this, you know, disruptive chief people officer course, which was more around that innovative HR, challenging the status quo, you know, finding opportunity, breaking your ground. And it just sang to my purpose, and that's the one I've gone with. And it's something I've not looked back to, and I'm really enjoying it. And, again, that's something that I've gone, ah, that really helps it that leaned into that, and that helped that choice.
Amy Shaw [00:39:41]:
So I made that choice. Definitely around people I surround myself with now as well. So people that I learn from, but also, you know, similar kind of people that are gonna enhance that. And if it's not, then it's okay to walk away from that. So making sure that those people are aligned to me. Definitely the family side of it, and there's a whole another podcast around that, journey that I've had with the the boys, but, yeah, around helping them find their way and aligning my purpose with them. But yeah. I was gonna
James Glover [00:40:18]:
I was gonna it's interesting, Amy. Like, that is, the universe doing its thing. Because I was actually gonna ask you, like, it feels, it feels like you the kind of the start of the the start of the, the conversation was really about these, like, deeply human experiences. And then largely prompted by me, the ability for you to be able to talk about how that influences the way in which you show up in one of the most important roles that you play, which is as a leader in organizations. The fact that you don't just want to be a kind of a HR director that, that that has a really wonderful high functioning people function. You want a people function that's really driving the kind of the innovation and the growth agenda across an entire business because ultimately, if you don't unleash the people within the organization, then, you know, everything else is secondary. So, like, you can see how this kind of finding a way to do things differently to be able to kind of, you know, crack on, not necessarily shout from the sidelines, but make sure that it's something that's deeply invested. It's it's clear.
James Glover [00:41:19]:
Right? It's in everything that you're kind of playing back. And so if you kind of close the loop then around around the boys now and like where they are in their journey in their life and you and your role as a parent, your role as a mother, how is how has it kind of connected the dots for you in in that way in terms of the the way in which you make sense of of all of that?
Amy Shaw [00:41:39]:
Yeah. Massively. I think I think in particular, the boys both love sport. They are both massively into rugby. And it's been really important for me. There's a the other theme is that I don't want to do it for people, but I wanna help create those conditions at work or at home and give them opportunities and tools. And so, for example, with the lads, my oldest, he's had his own resilience journey up and down. He really wants to be a professional rugby player, and I strongly believe in him.
Amy Shaw [00:42:12]:
And, you know, I've had other people that champion me and believe in me along the way, and that's come through in terms of actually you're one of them, by the way. You know, you just totally believe in people, and it really empowers you. And I think when you've got that purpose and that kind of all the things that you've learned and you can know what worked well for you, it's about how can I not do anything for him? He's gotta do all this for himself. I'm Fraser as well. He wants to follow a similar path. But, actually, help him know resilience is really important. The finding a way bit is really important. So he's gonna have to, you know if I help him give him tools and resources and opportunities and guidance and connections as well, so, you know, help him find people that will help him.
Amy Shaw [00:42:56]:
But it's what he it's what he makes of it, and it's the same it's the same at work. It's the same with my HR team. It's if I find them opportunities, if I help find them, it's what they want to do with it. But I believe in them. I believe in all of them, and I believe in him and Fraser. And I know they can do whatever they want to do. And, actually, just watching him go through his own journey, it's really hard to not start going, wonder if that's gonna be his purpose in the future. And I I yeah.
Amy Shaw [00:43:25]:
But, actually, watching their process, I'm really, really enjoying it. And I the same like, everybody at work knows my process with them because I talk about it because I think it's important for them to see how I what I do with them as well. They can learn from that in terms of the the bit about, you know, just work hard, but also take opportunities, try something new. But, actually, if you fail, it's okay. It's what you do without failure and how you behave with it. And so I I take my learnings as a mom into the workplace as well, and, also, I think I definitely apply that. I think my HR team that I work with would say that I apply that to them. I give them opportunity.
Amy Shaw [00:44:09]:
I I want them to fly, all of them. I want them to do really well, and it's about giving them that space, but also the resources and the tools, and finding opportunities. And, yeah, so it does come back round. And, actually, you know, it's it's down to them ultimately and it's down to the people I work with and it's down to them but actually I love it when I can find that bit and see some of it working.
James Glover [00:44:34]:
I I love I love the distinction that you make here between creating the conditions and then and then what they do with it is up to them versus actually often a kind of a need to be responsible or a need to help overplayed actually becomes really directive and really limiting because it's all about exactly what you think should be done and how it should be done. And, actually, you're just going there's opt there's there's opportunity, so see it. When you see it, take it, try it out, figure it out, give it a go. What does that look like? If I can give you tools and if I can shape those, I will do. But what you choose to do with them is on you. And if it doesn't work out, there's gonna be learning in that. But guess what? We're going again.
Amy Shaw [00:45:23]:
Yeah. And and that's exactly right. Because I'm my oldest. We have gone again quite a few times. And I think we'd go again again, if that makes sense. You don't.
James Glover [00:45:30]:
Yeah. Of course.
Amy Shaw [00:45:30]:
So I should. I'm really hoping we don't have to go again. That's in terms of the fact of his next stage of his rugby journey, but, but he will do. And I've even seen him put I think he puts me on the phone, and he I can't remember what he said now. It was like a a boxing quote or something like the, you know, the next stage is even bigger type thing when he'd he'd not gotten to the next stage of his program originally. And I saw him save this message to himself, and it basically was like, go again. If you really want something and but, yeah, it's I love that bit of helping people and providing that and the breaking the new ground bit and the innovation. You know, the companies I've worked for, they've all been brilliant, innovative, really wants to do new things, try new products, you know, and I've learned a lot from them.
Amy Shaw [00:46:20]:
And that's why I then try and help people and share that learning with them.
James Glover [00:46:25]:
Okay, Amy. So we've talked a bit about, looking backwards and, and kind of uncovering sense of meaning. We've talked a little bit about understanding it in the moment and the alignment side of things, and we start we've started to talk a little bit about kind of the the future focus. But I guess there's something that the evidence based, the science tells us, which is that meaning can stay stable over time. Like, you can travel through time when you think about things that are really significant and important. And I guess one of the things that we are constantly trying to do is go how how how can we project ourself into the future, think about future state and work back? Like, what what does that mean for us today and the choices that we make and how we make sense of the world? How has that how has that been powerful, useful for you? What kind of experiences have you had when with that side of things, the kind of the force light element to it?
Amy Shaw [00:47:14]:
We know we talked about the timeline that we did at the beginning, the the past timeline on the first kind of day on the program where we wrote about the past, kind of events positive and negative. Towards the end of the program, one of the things that you got us to do was to do a future one. So, again, I didn't project that I'm just gonna have positive, because let's face, life's hard. So I did put a couple of dips on there. And what's really weird is the first big dip I put was losing my mom in the future. And, unfortunately, last May sorry. Last March, we lost her quite suddenly and from nowhere. But, bizarrely, I revisited that dip and then, did what we did in the first time.
Amy Shaw [00:48:00]:
I wrote the themes and, you know, and it's the same again. The name in terms of, you know, finding a way, just cracking on with things. Similar to the GCSE thing, my sister and I all round each other again. It was the four of us together very close, and it was like it was kind of spooky in a way that when I did that, I think it was a year before, there's no one who knew that was gonna happen because we had no that. Yeah. Everything that I'd written on is similar historically was still there for that future. I mean, you know, bad as it was, there's still, again, the similar learnings and some things for the future that still speak to that purpose. So yeah.
James Glover [00:48:44]:
You know, and again, like Amy, I think just the, the willingness of you to share so openly about things that are really, really difficult. I I know that in doing that exercise so that's not necessarily a part of the exercise that's done in many other places. Like, it's just a very simple and traditional coaching tool is kind of doing a timeline of the past and figuring out, but we then kind of extend that into the future and say, right, now that you understand the sense of purpose and meaning, like, how might that shape you going forwards? And for you to then go, actually, it's really hard because we see that a lot. It's really hard for people to confront actually what the what life might look like for them now into kind of eighty years. There are lots of things that are gonna be difficult and challenging, and it becomes really hard to actually think about those and capture them. But the fact that you did and then that happened probably far sooner than anybody could have really ever predicted, but actually within that, there was an ability to be able to make sense of that experience in a way that you you almost can find comfort in because you know you know how you're going to manage it. You know how you're gonna deal with it. You almost know what needs to happen in order to be able to come through that that moment in time.
Amy Shaw [00:50:02]:
That that meaning stayed yeah. It stayed consistent throughout, which was yeah. It was a it was a bit spooky when I I saw that. I was like, okay, I couldn't have known and predicted, but, yeah, it's the same.
James Glover [00:50:14]:
Yeah. I love that. So I love that. So I let you know. I love the fact that it was spooky. I love the fact that you had to go through the experience. I know you get it, but it's just important to say it say it clearly. Yeah.
James Glover [00:50:27]:
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you. That so, yeah, that's just, that's blowing my mind a little bit, actually. I'm a little bit kind of speechless in terms of you you, you try to create these experiences with the the the kind of the knowledge that they are going to to land in a really meaningful way, but you can never predict the significance of something like that happening in a in the timeline in that way and and the kind of the resonance being at at that level. So, yeah, thank you again.
James Glover [00:50:55]:
That's another, like, wallop to share.
Amy Shaw [00:50:58]:
I'm gonna go quickly right on the timeline that I need to win the lottery.
James Glover [00:51:02]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Big time. Big time. All of a sudden, James Glover sells excitable soul to, I don't know, somebody for billions.
Amy Shaw [00:51:14]:
It's a magical timeline.
James Glover [00:51:15]:
Yes. Brilliant. Thank you.
Amy Shaw [00:51:17]:
In a way, I've just been really lucky and grateful to some of my experiences, and I hope it helps, I hope it helps others. And I share it with us. I think, you know, my friends will vouch for me. I I share things as much as I can with everybody else as well. If I can have an opportunity and share other things for not just my kids or work, if there's an opportunity to share with their friends or something. I'll just try and share anything that's helped me along the way because you just you never know. You never know in the future what is silently gonna help.
James Glover [00:51:49]:
Yeah. Exactly. And you know what, Amy? I think I think maybe we'll pause here because for even just the the small number of experiences that you've been willing to share with us in the podcast today, for you to be able to share those given the kind of the significance that they have had for you and then end the conversation by turning around and going, you know what? I'm just really lucky. It says a huge amount about you and, and the way you try to exist in the world and the magic that you bring. So thank you, not just for this conversation, but for that on the day to day basis.
Amy Shaw [00:52:23]:
No. Thank you for having me. Enjoyed it.
James Glover [00:52:26]:
Have a great afternoon. Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at theexcitablesoul.com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.