Episode #32 Katie Mobed
The Role of Purpose in Fulfilment: Exploring Meaning, Neuroscience, and Legacy
Today, I sat down with renowned performance psychologist Katie Mobed, who brings over 20 years of experience working with Olympic athletes, international teams, and corporate leaders. Together, we unpack a wealth of topics, from fearing our potential, to finding balance between purpose and life's small joys—like fairy lights.
Katie shares her journey from a childhood in gymnastics marked by both joy and painful challenges, to becoming an influential voice in sports psychology, advocating for a holistic approach to performance and well-being. We discuss the importance of understanding our true desires and contributions, interweaving personal narratives and professional insights to inspire you on your own path.
The conversation also touches on Katie's reflections on her impact in male-dominated coaching environments, the nuances of balancing purpose with pleasure, and the importance of creating space for meaningful engagement and playful joy. Through humour, heartfelt stories, and profound insights, we highlight how purpose can be a powerful anchor in our lives, offering peace and fulfilment.
Join us as we explore the connections between neuroscience, mindfulness, and the human experience, all while remembering the impact of a valued colleague and the legacy we each leave behind. Tune in for a journey into the heart of what makes life meaningful on The Excitable Soul Podcast.
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Read the transcript here
James Glover [00:00:09]:
Alrighty. Welcome to the excitable soul podcast. Here, we are interested in all things purpose. We want to know where and how people find meaning and connection in their lives. In every episode, we're gonna be hearing the real life stories of how people have uncovered, understood, and unleashed their own unique sense of purpose. Our hope is that we can all learn from the stories and the journeys of our guests so that we can better find the sense of purpose in our own lives. I'm host James Glover, performance coach and purpose nerd. I'm incredibly excited to be exploring these stories with you.
James Glover [00:00:44]:
So let's get going, shall we? Today's guest is Katie Mobed. Katie is one of the UK's leading performance psychologists. With over 20 years of experience helping individuals and teams thrive under pressure environments ranging from Olympic start lines to corporate boardrooms. A trusted adviser to Olympic champions, international teams, and CEOs, Katie's work centers on unlocking human potential and building cultures of trust and purpose. In today's episode, we'll explore her insights on resilience and high performance and her passion for empowering people, young and old, to navigate life's challenges with confidence and clarity. I hope you really enjoyed this conversation. Alright. Welcome, Katie, to the Excitable Soul podcast.
James Glover [00:01:35]:
Mega mega to have you, with us today. I've been really, really excited, and it feels like it's kind of been a long time coming. We've had to we've had to kinda shift and change and maneuver dates and stuff, small things coming up, like, you know, having babies and stuff. So it's mega to have you with us. How are you doing? How are you feeling?
Katie Mobed [00:01:53]:
I'm good. Thanks for having me. Ever since you, established the excitable soul, I've just thought it was this incredible name. It's captures everything that I that I see in you and also feel a bit in myself. So, yeah, absolutely. I'm honored to be here.
James Glover [00:02:08]:
Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant. We, we said that we would kinda start actually today with a with a bit of a kind of a different question for our normal kinda kickoff, which is you are you are somebody who has lived in the purpose space for a really, really long time and lived in it in terms of how you feel and experience your world and make sense of it, and also how you have helped others kind of go beyond the the kind of the tactical, the pragmatic, the kind of the practical, what they do into something that creates a different sense of meaning and connection. So you have this kind of beautiful sense of what purpose is, isn't, how it's experienced, how it's cultivated. And I kinda wanted to start with just a really big open question with you, which is just talk to us a little bit about your journey around that.
Katie Mobed [00:03:03]:
By the way, I like, I am so excited for this conversation and this topic. So if at any point I'm properly waffling, please jump in.
James Glover [00:03:11]:
I will never waffle on this podcast. You are welcome to.
Katie Mobed [00:03:14]:
Because I suppose initially, like, purpose. I think my way into it was like a sense of like, how random is life? Like, what are we doing here? What what like, are we what are we supposed to do with this life? We think we've just got this one life who knows what happens after it. I've always had a I don't really know where it came from. But like a strange sense of, like, it's finite, right? We only have a set amount of time, you never know when it's up. And yet, it feels like a massive privilege to be on planet Earth and to be a part of this planet Earth thing, alongside other human beings and animals and everything else. Like, so part of it was like a very random, like, I'm so confused. What am I doing here? And what are we supposed to be doing? And are we supposed to just have fun or that just felt a little bit kind of vacuous a little bit empty? It's like there must be some kind of purpose. And then I got confused by like, does everyone just have what like, is there one thing I'm here on this planet to do that only I can do? Or is it my opportunity to look around and see where I find inspiration where I find joy and create that purpose? I still don't know the answer to that question.
Katie Mobed [00:04:21]:
But it's fun to think about. So I think, yeah, it was it was essentially a a sense of the randomness of life and existence and a desire to make it meaningful because it feels too much of a privilege to know.
James Glover [00:04:34]:
Yeah. And what what an important word already, like, to make it meaningful, because the the the kind of the devil's in the detail just around that, isn't it? Like, there is then if you're going to make something meaningful, there's a need to become aware of some stuff. There's a need to actively and intentionally engage with some stuff, and then there's a need to pay attention to and learn about what that interaction kinda looks like. So what what's that before we kinda get into the magic of the work that you've created for others, like, what's that look like for you?
Katie Mobed [00:05:04]:
So in terms of my how I make sense of my own purpose?
James Glover [00:05:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that kind of journey around meaningfulness.
Katie Mobed [00:05:12]:
I I and it's taken me a long time, and perhaps I'm still figuring it out in my forties now. But I the sense I've made of it so far is I think for me, it kind of was crystallised or or something happened when I when I was much, much younger in the sport of gymnastics. It was like my first love. And, I just so passionate. I was literally like doing somersaults backflips, but it was just the most fun thing ever. And so I started off with like a real sense of joy. But then, not to be too like intense about it, it turned into quite a painful experience. And so at one point, I was training, like, 30 hours a week at the age of 12.
Katie Mobed [00:05:51]:
I had a a increasingly difficult relationship with my coach. I've had a lot of fear. I after a couple of injuries, I started to think about what could go wrong. And so I'd be standing on a beam about to do a particular acrobatic move, which I knew physically I could do and my coach definitely knew I could do and couldn't understand why I wasn't doing it because I was standing there worrying about whether or not it was gonna go okay. And I didn't know how to process that that barrier, the block that my mind was putting in place for me. And, like, it just got really, it got really painful, really painful. I was probably in tears most days. I didn't really talk to anyone about it.
Katie Mobed [00:06:28]:
I felt a deep sense of, like, I was disappointing everyone that, I really like that my coach just there was no connection. Like, I just didn't I didn't feel that he understood what I was going through, and I didn't know how to communicate it. And so there's, like, this misunderstanding. And when I eventually, like, retired such a young age, I retired at the age of 16, having, like, travelled the world and on on on the on paper, like, represented my country, been part of the National Squad, great things, but with very little joy in my heart. And when I retired, I don't actually remember this to be quite frank, but my mum said that I said that one day, I want to be there for others, and have helped them have a better experience in sport, and to keep the love and not turn it into suffering. And so and I didn't realise at the time, because I felt like I want to help people achieve their dreams in sports. I think sport was can be pretty magical, not always, but can be, has the potential to be. And I felt like I needed to have achieved great things in order to help others like that I needed to have my dream was to go to the Olympic Games, win a gold medal, work out what helped me do that.
Katie Mobed [00:07:36]:
Tell everyone else that. And then they can also do it. So naive, like, so so I guess in a certain very young, in my thinking of, like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, create this roadmap. Here we go, everybody. Everybody can have the best time ever. But and so I felt like, oh, this is a failure. Like, this is I now can't do that. I have no, like, credibility.
Katie Mobed [00:07:55]:
No one will trust me. I won't be able to make a difference. And then over the years and through experiences that we've shared and co created together in a beautiful sport of Canoe Salalem, I guess, I realized that I didn't need to have achieved the dream myself. Actually, the fact that I didn't achieve the dream and the suffering that came from that was at the heart of my ability to, like, connect with others and give everything I could to their journey and their mission. So, yeah, I hoped initially it was going to come from a story of glory and triumph. But as, I love that quote, in the poet Rumi. You know, he says, the wound is the place where the light gets in. And so, like, that for me was having the courage after it to be, like, a decade, I think.
Katie Mobed [00:08:38]:
I also went off to uni for 10 years and didn't tell anyone that I was a former gymnast, that it was like, I just hid from it. And then eventually found the courage to to realize and then, like, capitalize on it.
James Glover [00:08:54]:
when you I'm wondering, like, when you share that story and you say that out loud and you hear yourself say it, that, I'm wondering what what you connect with now, because there's just something really incredible about hearing you talk about the level of emotional awareness that you had at 12 years old. And what you're actually saying is, I knew I knew it. I could feel it, but I just couldn't communicate it to somebody else that couldn't see or understand it. And I'm like, that's a magical thing at 12. And then also at the same time, it being another 4 years of that before turning around and going, no. I've had it. I've I'm done. I'm done.
James Glover [00:09:32]:
That that'll do. Thanks very much. And how the, the kind of the internal experience was so rich and so real for you, at at that age, that that undoubtedly has been the kind of the innate human capacity that you have to create the impact that you do in your professional world now. And so there's a part of it where you can where you can kind of flip the suffering and go, yes. That has helped me build a level of empathy and connection and generative experience with others. But there's another part of it, which is you're really remarkable, not just kind of physically talented, but in terms of your emotional maturity and awareness and insight. And I wonder if you I wonder if you see that in yourself when you when you kind of reflect on that journey.
Katie Mobed [00:10:21]:
Not, not a no. No. I think, I still feel like I'm carrying, like, 12 year old Katie with me and constantly trying to look after her. And like, maybe that wound doesn't heal, but you just, you know, that kind of Japanese kintsugi concept of where the bowl breaks and you reform it with gold, and it's more precious. So it's taken a lot of work to get to a point where I can talk about it and be proud of it almost and not almost. Yeah. I am proud of it. I'm proud that I that I tried.
Katie Mobed [00:10:53]:
I'm proud that I, tried to find the courage to communicate with my coach or stand up to him. And, yeah, I think for forevermore, like, I'm carrying that younger version with me and, like, just trying to look after her and and constantly reassure her that it's okay. And thus, yeah, I'm I'm glad I have that insight because I've and you will know because you've walked alongside me through some of this journey and this growth of going from a place of, like, I'm a failure, like, the narrative of I'm a failure. I wasn't good enough. Like, I let everybody down. And then I noticed, like, I went through that period of I went to university. I've got 3 first class degrees, and I felt no joy about the whole thing. So I was just trying to prove something, and I didn't yeah.
Katie Mobed [00:11:37]:
None of it actually really mattered. Like, when I look back now, it's, like, the friendships, the fun, the hangovers, the the experience at uni with friends is what I cherish is what I take with me. And so, yeah, just I'm grateful to the people that have helped me reflect and helped me have the courage to to to, like, lean into that. Because I think back to that that room is that room you quote around the the wound is the place where, like, it's in as most people. Because the wound is sore, you don't wanna talk about it. You don't wanna look at it, and so you miss the magic in it. And I have some really fortunate people. I I was very fortunate to have some great people around me to help me do that so that I could transform it.
James Glover [00:12:17]:
I
Katie Mobed [00:12:17]:
told you I should be forever grateful for.
James Glover [00:12:20]:
Amazing. Amazing. And you you've used the word joy, like, three times already, and we've been talking for, like, 5 minutes. And, so let's, like, let's lean into the joy element of this now. And because, you know, working in elite sport and working with athletes, the the joy can definitely be something that is acknowledged but secondary to the the kind of the need to perform and need to kind of deliver outcomes. So how do you how do you how do you maintain a level of connection to joy for you, but then also for those that you're working within the kind of the most high pressure environments?
Katie Mobed [00:12:55]:
Yeah. Big it's a big one, isn't it? Especially, like, the narratives around sport and in a sense that, like, not all gold medals are cherished. Like, not all champions are actually role models. Like, for some sport is, like, a lot of athletes are driven by dysfunction, like, from from early childhood wounds and so on. And over the years, I think I've I've just been figuring it out constantly, still figuring it out that my mission is, like, part of my mission is then to help people find the joy in their sport or to heal through sport, actually. Initially, I went into it just with an intellectual question, almost like, could I help an athlete win an Olympic gold medal? And there was that really wasn't the question at all. It's like, the joy comes from the moment of, like, real connection, like, you know, our work back in the day with Timonetti and in the sport of canoe slalom, 2 individuals that just like I mean, I can't think about them without smiling. Like, they're hard work.
Katie Mobed [00:13:52]:
They were hard work.
I love them. Absolutely.
Katie Mobed [00:13:56]:
And I still love them. And we still have a WhatsApp group with them and their and their coach, Nick. We still celebrate, like, what is it? How many years on is well over 10 years on from their gold medal winning performance at the London Olympics. We still celebrate that, text each other on the day we share inspiration. So I think that the joy for me comes in the connection and helping an individual or an athlete to find their inner resources to realise what they're capable of. And I remember Tim, I think it was Tim Tim Bailey, who once said around about that time, like, we just went out there to do the very best we could. And it just so happened that our best was the best. And so we got given a gold medal.
Katie Mobed [00:14:34]:
But he that that quote showed me how much he had, like, like, how much he'd reflected through his journey that he was he'd gone from a very external, as I had as well, external source of successes, medals, and what people think of me versus actually just loving my sport and getting in touch with more intrinsic drivers. I remember what the question was, but I'm pretty sure I'm not answering it. And that's so what was the question?
James Glover [00:14:58]:
Let's forget the question, and let's kinda stay in where we're at because, there's something in that transition. Right? There's something in that transition from kind of the external to the internal. And, you know, there will be people listening to this podcast who will basically be going, that's easier said than done. And I guess we can acknowledge, yeah, easy is easier said than done, but it is possible. And so what are the things that you have seen and that you do that enable people to truly value the internal experience as much as the external experience? Because that's the magic, isn't it? Yeah. Like, when they truly value it.
Katie Mobed [00:15:34]:
And this is where, like, you'll know, like, I'm a bit of a psych geek, like like a noise of it. Because I think for me, part of that, you've got to get a bit geeky into the neuroscience to understand how your mind works because otherwise, you're just being, like, driven crazy, potentially, by the thoughts that you have. And if you actually lean into the science of that, and, you know, I mean, I learned so much from mentoring from Steve Peters and other psychologists over the years, around how the brain works that we have over a 100,000 thoughts per day, and roughly 70% of them will be of a more negative leaning. And potentially, we're only actually in control of about 10% of those thoughts. So starting to step back from the busyness of our mind and have an inquiring mindset around, like, what do I really think? Like, what's really important versus what is my mind telling me is important. And that's a massive step for for all of us because it's like, hold on. It's my mind. I was with a group this week, and we were talking about creating space between you and your mind.
Katie Mobed [00:16:29]:
And one of the one of the delegates in the room said, but doesn't that make me less human?
And I just wanted to grab him and go, no, it
Katie Mobed [00:16:35]:
makes you more human. Like, what is it to be human? Like, he's a bit it's my mind. So it's all that's all there. It's all true. It's like, what is it? And then there's loads of things you can do, obviously, you know, in in conversation or in psychology work to help people relax their grip on the mind and how it works and thoughts. Because then if you've got that insight to how the brain has evolved and the different teams that might be up there or that are up there, then you can be a bit more discerning about which thoughts you wanna pay attention to. You can't control the ones that come that might tell you you need to win or you need to get that promotion or you need to be better than so and so or what car are you driving, all these sorts of things. Then you can start to be a bit more discerning about actually how wise are those thoughts, or I'm not gonna fight them or argue with them, but I'm just gonna not engage with them.
Katie Mobed [00:17:20]:
And then you've created some space. It's like, okay. So if I'm not gonna define myself by all those things, what am I gonna define myself? Oh, wow. Like, I've got a choice here. There's some freedom here, and that's such a privilege to sit with people while they figure that out. That's blows my mind. Like, almost 17 years in, and I still it blows my mind to hear people to see people realize that and then and hear where they wanna go with it.
James Glover [00:17:47]:
And in your experience for you, Katie, as you've kind of been on this journey of external to internal and kind of navigating this both for yourself, but as Like, how how do you make sense of it? How are the how are you kind of wrestling with with the kind of the different the different voices and making choices associated with them? What are the things that really worked for you in being able to do that?
Yeah. Well, for
Katie Mobed [00:18:10]:
starters, it's ongoing. I have a coach now who's you know, that space is invaluable to to hear myself think and reflect and rest it. It's definitely been a journey from, like, we've touched on, like, the external of, like, I need to be an Olympic gold medal winning gymnast. And then, I need to achieve the top grades and everything. I I was never trying to beat others. I just was trying to be perfect. I think I was just trying to always hit that standard, to to kind of fulfil a sense of I'm not good enough as I am. Then the then the sort of learning about the the neuroscience and how the brain works and understanding my my earlier life experiences, then shifts to more like, I'm gonna get my self worth from like, following my values from being in touch with my values and having them defined from a healthy place rather than a place of suffering.
Katie Mobed [00:19:00]:
I'm gonna get my self worth from, like, helping others, connecting to others, making a difference in the world. Tiny things like like, when I'm driving to school and dropping Ida off, I'm gonna stop and let that person cross the road because it's raining and, like, let them cross the road that they're cold and wet. Like, don't try to connect with the community and people around. But where I think where I certainly where I aspire to for my my clients or my friends and my children, my husband is, like, is not even that. It's actually beyond where I'm at is more like an inherent sense of value of just how unique. Like, everybody is beautifully unique. Like, the what are the chances of you being born as you are today? Like, it's just it it is mind blowing. And, like, I look at my children, and there's nothing they can do to make me love them anymore or less.
Katie Mobed [00:19:54]:
Like, it's just a given. And it was that's the first time really looking at them and and and kind of just a sense of wonder. And then, of course, you're like, oh, okay. So if that's true for them, then it must also be true for me. That wasn't that wasn't automatically felt. I guess I just didn't have life experiences that that kind of led me to that place or or allow me to be in that place. But through Isla and Louie, I'm just like, oh my gosh. Look at you guys.
Katie Mobed [00:20:23]:
And, like, obviously, they're incredibly annoying at times. Like, I know. Well, asking me for a snack and, like, yeah. It's like,
the driver's always like, oh, we need
Katie Mobed [00:20:32]:
Our nearly there? Yeah. Oh, my God. I do not have
Speaker C [00:20:35]:
a sense of your wonder right now. But no, no, in those moments, you
James Glover [00:20:39]:
are wonderfully annoying.
Katie Mobed [00:20:43]:
Yeah, it is. It's inherent, isn't it? And it's all it's all a friend of mine was telling me recently about this is a definite detour. You know, like the mushrooms, there's like a type of mushroom fungi that grows around trees. That's part of like a communication. I'm probably fudging this, but I need to look into it. Well, it's a sense like that trees communicate with other trees through this particular type of fungi. And they're like, maybe sending messages about like an insect attack, or they might be sharing nutrients, if there's like a, there's like the mother tree, the big one, and then there's the saplings that maybe haven't got the right sunlight, or they're so connected. And then you hear about, like, I've been up a lot with Louie in the night watching David Attenborough.
Katie Mobed [00:21:23]:
Talking about, like, when a whale carcass sinks to the bottom of the ocean, then like, the kind of is it called phytoplankton and feed off it? And everything is so connected. And then you see, you lose a sense of yourself. So you must go from, like, god, I need to be really impressive and important to I'm just gonna try and be a good person to actually almost like I don't I don't matter, but I don't mean that in a negative sense, but as in just that we're all here connected, playing our part. So, yeah, I don't know. I've I've still processing it.
James Glover [00:21:56]:
Well, I know what what's, what's really striking me is the the kind of the the almost the paradox of, like, colossal perspective. Like, we are stardust. I I love professor Brian Cox's we're all stardust. We're all made out of material that is within our, like, universe, within our galaxy, because we can't be made out of anything else. There's nothing just special about this planet. There have just been certain conditions that have allowed that space dust to form and become other stuff. And so we're made out of the same stuff that you find on Mars or, you know, like in the rings of Saturn or are you like, woah. Like, the sense of scale associated with that and then the wonder of our uniqueness, our individual uniqueness on the planet.
James Glover [00:22:47]:
Like, that's kind of a that's a big that's a big scale to be able to hold. And then at the same time, you talk about the voices in your head and, like, the neuroscience associated with the kind of the structure and the function of the brain and how that interacts with your physiology and the interplay between those two things and the output of that being some information that's being communicated to you, like, a 100000 times a day and how much of that do you want or not and the kind of the choices associated with it. So you can kind of go from this, like, universal to deeply tiny and and kind of internal scale by this with this kind of meaning making experience. And I'm I'm, like, imagining if I'm listening to to people on the podcast here, like, how how do you hold those two things at same time? Like, both What is this? No. Like, both both are true. Right? So how do you how do you hold it? How do you hold it for yourself in a place where you can you can be in it and you can see it and you can accept it and you can embrace it rather than being like, woah. I'm just gonna have a bag of crisps because that's that's all I can make sense of right right now.
Katie Mobed [00:23:56]:
If you are going to, just please don't have already salted. I just don't get the point we're already salted.
So anyway, sorry. I think you're building up to a poignant question. Let me just talk about it, Chris.
James Glover [00:24:07]:
Well, I mean, I don't wanna be a let down, but that very rarely happens. I guess I'm I'm I'm kind of more I'm more in this kind of observation of being able to hold the tension between these these senses of of scale. One of the things that you talked about a little while ago was the kind of the meaning and the meaning making in in in the kind of the purpose process. Let's let's kind of bring it back to purpose as being maybe an anchor in being able to hold that kind of scale and to be able to make sense of that scale. Like, where for you does purpose play? How does it enable people to make that shift from the external to the internal and really value it? How does it help people make sense of the world around them? Like, what's the why is it a powerful vehicle from your perspective?
Katie Mobed [00:24:49]:
Yeah. You know, I'm sure you've got a very enlightened listenership. Is that a phrase? Audience? Cool cool people that are maybe checking out your podcast. And so I imagine most of them have read, you know, Bronnie Ware's book. I was told it's Bronnie Ware, by the way, but I recently noticed it's Bronnie Ware. So apologies for misquoting her for about 15 years. And I have the the top five regrets of the dying. And I love that I actually because I'm I am a geek for the detail.
Katie Mobed [00:25:16]:
I love the subheading, which is a life transformed by the departed, because I think it does offer us a chance to transform our life while we're here on planet Earth. And she talked about those top five regrets of, of the things that she noticed recurring themes around people at the end of their life and and things they wish they'd done differently. And it makes you think about, I think it's Victor Frankl's sense that you should live life as if you're doing it for the 2nd time, and the first time you messed it all up. It's like now it really is a gift. Like and so I think for for me, like, purpose, like, it helps us make sense of all of that and helps you kind of the bet like, I'm drawn to, like, this the times I've been in coaching conversations with incredibly successful, and I put them in quite much deliberately, normally businessmen, who have an awful lot of money in the bank and a beautiful house and a very snazzy car and not much in their soul. Like, they they have a a sense of emptiness of, like, is this all it is? Like, there's no fulfilment to it. Perhaps the relationships they have with their partner or with their children, not not where they would want them to be, or maybe they haven't even invested in relationships. And so, like, purpose is a vehicle for for for peace.
Katie Mobed [00:26:25]:
That was a it's a vehicle for, like, having no regrets and actually coming to an appoint of accepting that our time is finite. Sorry to keep bringing that up, but accepting that it is and then channelling that to think, okay, how do I make the most of today? How do I, yeah, create that joy like we've been talking about? What what do I really wanna do with my time here? And so I've seen people make very drastic changes, very different paths. You kind of I've never actually read it, but it's on my bookshelf, the the second mountain by David Brooks. We talk I think the premise is the first mountain is, like, what you try and, like, demonstrate worth and that you're very impressive. And it's like, I am doing this, and then the second mountain is more one of contribution. And you can only go to that 2nd mountain when you realise that you were enough as you are anyway, that you never really had anything to prove. And then you can come from a from a point of peace internally. Now I can come back out to the world and be and be in the world and contributing, but, yeah, just with a different fuel.
Katie Mobed [00:27:30]:
So, yeah, purpose to me is like, yeah, like you said, a compass or an anchor, fuel, all these good things.
James Glover [00:27:37]:
You know, the that language of purpose and purpose and peace, I don't even know what the kind of the interconnection was between the 2 of them, but purpose and peace. I'm kind of sitting with that, and, I'm sitting with that and your kind of referral to the finality of of life. And, we we both lost a a kind of a a very, very valued colleague and friend. Like, you can't just really call him a colleague. He was so much more than that. And I don't know whether there's just something in that because you and I haven't really had the chance to chat or connect in around, around Jurgen, whether or not that's just kind of playing out for us, kind of the universe is is speaking because he was such such a huge soul, such a huge character, and the kind of the warmth and generosity and just sheer strength of kind of spirit was was phenomenal, but also he was he was kind of here and then not.
Katie Mobed [00:28:39]:
Yeah.
James Glover [00:28:40]:
And and to be able to kind of acknowledge that that that is a possibility. Yeah. And the importance of being here and seeing the kind of the contribution that's that's possible. Like, he will live in my heart forever. Forever. For for to be somebody who spent so long in the kind of the elite performance environment and yet brought such care and kindness and, yeah, just generosity of heart, that the the impact that he's had on people is going to live on forever. And there's something something in that, isn't there, around I we know I never I never asked him what his sense of purpose was. And, like, I'm really wishing that I had because I wonder how he would have described that in his in his magical Yerg fashion to describe how he was in the world.
Katie Mobed [00:29:35]:
Yeah. Totally. And and think about the impact that that one individual had on our lives. Like, I wouldn't potentially have met you without him. He put us together, and we met in that little kitchen in Lee Valley. And I was just had the sense of like, oh, my gosh, there's this guy with so much potential here in front of me. Wow. So exciting.
Katie Mobed [00:29:54]:
And I mean, he gave me my first job in any sport when I was so green. You know, I didn't really have the I didn't really have the qualifications. I definitely didn't have the experience. But he just, like, believed in me and supported me and gave me a chance and forever grateful for that. And the people that I met through that the experiences I had within his team. And yeah, like, yeah, just and he wouldn't it? Does he know that? Did he know? Did he know the impact he had on all our lives? Did he know how much how rich he how much he opened life up for us? And then then the same then reflecting back on us, like, are we thinking about the impact we're having on other people and realising what an opportunity we have to, to actually have a transformational impact, because you kind of initially don't want to say that because it sounds a bit arrogant. It's like, oh, I don't want it to be about me, I want it to be about all these other people. But it's like, no, take responsibility for that.
Katie Mobed [00:30:43]:
You know, that Nelson Mandela quote, I think it's Mandela might be able to correct me, that we're not scared of the darkness is actually the light that we're scared of, like, give ourselves permission to be all that we can be. That's not his quote, but that's kinda what I took from it. Yeah. I wonder if yoga realized realises. I don't know. I hope so.
James Glover [00:31:04]:
The the old man is it's the Marianne Williamson poem. Right? The the it's the, our greatest fear.
Katie Mobed [00:31:11]:
That's it.
James Glover [00:31:12]:
Fear is not is not the darkness, but actually the light. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so there was just something around purpose and peace and this kind of sense of finality, and it just made me think of, made me think of Yoke. And I think that there's there's something here in the, the kind of the description of contribution and the importance of contribution as well, which, you know, for me, purpose is the outcome of some stuff. Like, people don't have to worry about, about being purposeful if they are paying attention to what's really meaningful to them and the contribution they're trying to make to it. So the kind of the opportunity is to go, what what do I really care about? What are the things that really matter to me? And if that is joy and love and playfulness and, you know, all of those great things, then if those are really important and I can I can bring those to life, I can make a contribution to those happening for myself and for others? The outcome of that is feeling purposeful, like feeling fulfilled, feeling satisfied.
James Glover [00:32:17]:
And so there's a part of the kind of the sense making almost of how do you hold the scale of massive and minuscule, which is which is let go of it. And to some degree, just focus in to your point on the right kind of noise in your head, the right kind of voice in your head, and how that's, how that's speaking truth. And I don't say that in a, like, in a in some kind of philosophical or spiritual comment that nobody can make sense of. It's genuinely finding the bits that are true for you and not some kind of emotive story that's driving driving behavior that's not helpful. But that requires work. It requires effort. It requires investment and engagement. And to your point, ongoing because it can't stop.
James Glover [00:33:06]:
Right? It's not it's not done ever.
Katie Mobed [00:33:08]:
Yeah. I love that the sense you just about purpose being an outcome almost and that you can almost forget almost forget about it if you I really like the way you frame that. Thought about that before.
James Glover [00:33:19]:
Well, for me, that takes the pressure off. Like, when I'm when I'm working with when I'm working with individuals or working with teams, like, you can feel this sense of, do I do I have my shit together? Do I know what it's all about? Do I know
Katie Mobed [00:33:32]:
Can I capture it in a nice sentence like Simon Sinek did?
James Glover [00:33:36]:
Yeah. And and you know what? There's there's power in being able to put words to it because of the kind of the the ability to access it and access it quickly, but it's so much more because it is it's emotional. It's feeling. And that is just rich, really rich deep territory. And so anything that helps people, like, lower the threshold of resistance to being able to get back to, again, your point, what's deep more deeply human. Oh, you know, like, creating distance and space in your brain is not less human. It's more human. Actually, not paying attention to the voice in your in your mind and actually feeling your body, that's more human.
James Glover [00:34:15]:
You know, that that kind of differentiated data, the differentiated information. What are you paying attention to? And what then what then does that mean, and what does that make possible? Because that's the faith and belief element. Right? Is I don't necessarily know what tomorrow is gonna bring. But if I'm doing this stuff now, then I'm think I'm sure tomorrow is gonna be okay.
Katie Mobed [00:34:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. Agree. But then I wonder how do how sometimes, like, you know, when you're deeply passionate about this area, like, how do you then also give yourself permission to to not be purposeful, not be mindful of that, to just just have some fun, just, like, superficial, like, another day, like, for me, it might be like something really cheesy, like just flipping love fairy lights. Oh, my gosh.
Speaker C [00:34:59]:
Oh, my gosh. Just my husband's like,
Katie Mobed [00:35:03]:
what is the problem? Why are you so obsessed fairy lights? There's something about
James Glover [00:35:07]:
Another Amazon delivery. Guess what we've got?
Speaker C [00:35:11]:
I'm sure. Yeah. I saw quite some on Instagram about how, like, I've lost track of what even is being delivered now, especially when Louie was like, up all night, like, oh, good.
James Glover [00:35:21]:
That's a 3 am purchase.
Katie Mobed [00:35:24]:
It's interesting how it all connects how like the depth and meaning and purpose. That's just the transient of transient moment of just, I don't know, a hot water bottle and a hot chocolate.
James Glover [00:35:38]:
Yeah. I don't. Is that is that it let well, let's explore that for for a second because I think there's something there's something in it. It's certainly making me think, which is like, the the principle of sense making. Like, we are try we're meaning making animals. Right? We're trying to figure out and understand what's happening around us all of the time. And so I guess we have different ways of making sense of the different moments that we are in. And I think the idea of being purposeful all the time or being laser focused on purpose all the time sounds exhausting.
Speaker C [00:36:12]:
Yeah. Yeah.
James Glover [00:36:13]:
Yeah. If I'm honest, It has to be meaningful. Yeah. Exactly. Significant. But I also think I also think this paradox here, which is, purpose doesn't have to be massive and overwhelming. Like, to to understand what is meaningful to you is to understand that fairy lights have meaning for you because they just bring a sense of joy and, and playfulness and happiness in that. So that's meaningful.
James Glover [00:36:38]:
Right? Like
Katie Mobed [00:36:39]:
That like my dad's allotment. Like, honestly, he just did, oh, he just had good. Yeah. And it's, sometimes I heard someone was aware of like a seesaw of like, purpose and pleasure of like, some people are like, really driven by purpose and other people much more driven by pleasure. And you have to every now and again, like a seesaw is only fun when it bounces both ways. And, like, now I'm thinking about how many times when I, like, attempt to get on the seesaw, the other side with more my children. It's like, I did
not have the leg strength. Yes.
James Glover [00:37:06]:
Yes. Squat workout. Yeah.
Katie Mobed [00:37:08]:
Yeah. I think, like, a little bit of that balance, I think, is important, like, shifting it both ways.
James Glover [00:37:13]:
And almost almost being able to, again, just kind of let go of it all and get and just be able to say, like, it doesn't doesn't have to be something that is front of mind all of the time, but, actually, when you need it, can you access it? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, again, that comes back to, do I understand what's happening to me and for me in this moment? Do I understand that I'm in a place of peace and I feel comfortable and I feel happy or that actually I feel lost right now? And in the lostness, there's a need to to be able to reconnect with something that feels like it it has the the kind of the structure and the scaffolding to to kind of to to help you go to the difficult places of go of figuring out what is happening and become unlost or unstuck. And so, yeah, I think the kind of the freedom that one of, one of our previous guests, Sammy Sammy Birch, she is she's a purpose practitioner too, and she just said the the the most important thing for her was was actually being able to let go of everything related to purpose completely because she was so hell bent on, I need to know exactly what it is. I need to know exactly how it works. I need to be able to bring that to everybody else, and there is a rightness to this. And then going, what am I doing? Like, it's too big, too massive, too individual, but still but still real and still tangible and still still hard edged at the same time. And so you have to have freedom.
James Glover [00:38:37]:
I'm not doing wibbly arms just
I liked it.
James Glover [00:38:40]:
So we can do that. I got all loosey goosey there for a second. You you have to be able to play
Katie Mobed [00:38:46]:
play in that. Right?
James Glover [00:38:47]:
Definitely. So I'm worrying I'm wondering about, like, the journey ahead, Katie, I'm like, how does how does purpose play a role in in kind of leaps of faith in going forward into the future? What does that look like for you?
Katie Mobed [00:39:01]:
It's a good question because I, when in thinking about values, like, my my 2 kind of guiding values are care and courage. For like, if I keep channelling those, I won't go too far wrong. And so the leaps of faith immediately makes me think about courage. I think looking back, it's been in in doing things that my mind was telling me I couldn't do. So whether it was even like, you know, taking that first job with with Kinesl alum or moving into like rugby, a very male dominated sport, like, I can't even catch a
ball, like, in this environment.
Katie Mobed [00:39:32]:
And then actually having some incredible experiences and meeting some wonderful people. I remember our wedding, over half the guests were people that I met my husband through rugby, but, you know, the athletes and coaches that we'd worked with through that sport. So doing putting myself in environments where my head is telling me, you can't do it. Every in fact, I'd say every job I've taken has been a leap of faith of just deciding to disengage from the debate whether or not I'm good enough or could can do it and deciding to just trust the process of what can happen when you show up authentically for people and you put their best interests at heart. Oh, my gosh. Like, I have so much belief in that in that process. So but interestingly, the debate I'm having now is whether or not to leave the world of elite sport. Having been in it for Yeah, I think it's almost 17 years.
Katie Mobed [00:40:24]:
I don't feel old enough for that. I still feel like I'm in my 20s. And yeah, because there is like, it is a is a paradox in sport, isn't it? Because essentially, you get employed to help people win. And yet, as a practitioner in that environment, I've, I care about that, because it's fun to try and win and people like winning, but only if the journey towards winning is really like meaningful. Like, you can't tell if someone has actually won by whether or not they're standing on a podium, because that's a much more inner journey. That's more like, you know, Pippa Grange's concept of the deep win or Kath Bishop's work around the long win. I love the way they conceptualise it. But, like, how much did they grow along the way? Did they feel powered by purpose? Do they have aspects of their identity beyond that? So it's quite hard being in sport with that mindset because it's not the norm.
Katie Mobed [00:41:14]:
It's not what's expected of you either. You're not expected to be so holistic. So I think I've been effectively battling. And I feel like I've been winning that battle. And like, there's loads of other people who are trying to kind of fight that cause as well, within the lot of sport. But I do sometimes wonder, why don't you just go and put yourself in a different environment and see what's possible? I've obviously done I've done a lot of work in education. And I look at the education system, like, I just don't know how teachers that what what's expected of them is so unrealistic. And you're hearing more and more stories around exclusions and people like I, you know, I didn't feel an overwhelming sense of excitement about my daughter starting school.
Katie Mobed [00:41:53]:
And I sat with that for quite a while. I was like, okay. Well, what are you doing about that? Well, if we could start from scratch in the education field and design schools that truly develop character and all the stuff we're talking about here, it would look so different to what it looks like now. And so I don't know. And I'm scared to say out loud, because now I'm like,
oh, god, I'm talking about it now.
Katie Mobed [00:42:15]:
But like, I think there's another chapter for me coming where I invest and try and explore that space more and connect with other people that are trying to make a difference in because kids spend so long at school. I actually worked out. I can't remember what it is now, but I sat and worked out at one point how many hours is, like, way more than with family and so on. So support to teachers, training for teachers, restructuring the curriculum, the physical environment of a school, all of that stuff, and I and it scares me because there's so much force against what's possible. There's so much, like, this is the way it's always done, blah blah blah. So I think there's something in that. And then the other bit for me is, like, actually stepping back from all of this. And what I really wanna do is just cook a great meal for my kids at the end of the day.
Katie Mobed [00:43:05]:
And I want to, like, remember my friend's birthdays. So I would talk about that before I get on this podcast. And I want to like, like, today's Louis's first birthday. And tomorrow, we're having a little party. And I want to make a party bag for the friends that have helped us through that. It's been hard. There is challenges, but I want to make little party bags. And like, these are the little things that like, if I just put all my time and energy into work, I don't have time to do those other things that actually I really, really care about.
Katie Mobed [00:43:33]:
So there's, for me, there's, like, a leap of faith to walk away from the kind of work that has given me so much over the years and, yeah, helped me support my family as well as all the more meaningful aspects we've been talking about. Yeah. Those two things.
James Glover [00:43:49]:
I love and I and I love this kind of sense of, of massiveness and kind of, like, minusculeness too. Like, this sense of, like, scale and, yeah, and, and kind of and clarity of closeness, but actually both defined by by what's meaningful to you around care and courage. Like, the courage to go, that feels massive. It doesn't feel like anybody's, necessarily cracking it right now. Like, how do I go and find other people that are trying to crack it and thus collectively do something that could that could go after that in the same way that you went into sport. And it's really interesting listening to you talk about your kind of experiences when you started out at at Canoe Style and and kind of saying, oh, you know, I felt really, really green and didn't have the experience. Because the moment that I met, that we met in this kind of kitchen environment, I was really struck by what might be possible with somebody like you in that environment. And remember when we used to do the kind of the the athlete reviews, and so there'd be all the coaches, all the practitioners sat around the table, and you would be the dissenting voice of, like, humanity towards the towards these athletes in that room.
James Glover [00:45:01]:
And I was kind of like, she hustled everybody here. Like, this idea that this is the kind of the first time that she's done this as a joke because she's kind of take taken it toe to toe with with these expert really experienced practitioners and coaches who who were who were who were really narrowly focused on some stuff appropriately so, but to bring a different to bring a different voice. So all it sounds like is you're doing exactly the you're looking to do exactly the same thing here, but maybe the scale is bigger and maybe the challenge is bigger, and that's because so are you. Like
Katie Mobed [00:45:32]:
Oh, wow. Yeah. I never thought never thought of
it there.
James Glover [00:45:35]:
Yeah. Inside out. So are you. But then but then also, like, the beauty of the care element of it, which is, yeah, I just wanna be able to cook a meal and make a party bag, and that is just as important as reforming the education in the United Kingdom.
Katie Mobed [00:45:50]:
I I remember, because I remember back in, like, back in the day, there was one coach that said to me, like, basically didn't speak to me for 6 months. So it was one of the it was quite a male dominated staff team that often is. And he was like, I just needed to see whether you were trustworthy. I'm like, why did you like, what a waste of time, like, waiting 6 months for me to prove myself? Why don't you just get behind me from the beginning and wonder what more we could have achieved? I mean, and then I remember another coach saying to me that I could only talk to his athlete about canoeing as I and yet, things beyond canoeing are way more interfering of their potential than the actual strokes they take on and so on. And I no judgement. Everyone's doing the best they can according to how they see the world. But it's things have definitely things have definitely shifted in the world of sport to be more holistic. But I'm in Timonetti.
Katie Mobed [00:46:38]:
And they know this. I somebody said to me, don't waste my time on them. They'll never achieve anything. It's like, they'll just become the 1st Olympic champions in the sport you watch. I mean, obviously, none of us knew that none of us knew what was possible. And their work and commitment was stratospheric, along with like, next next coaching and the and all the rest of your role around them, like everything. But it just shows like, I think that's what's so amazing about it. You just never know what's possible.
So give it a go. I got to lose.
James Glover [00:47:10]:
I think I think, Katie, we should pause there because what a sentiment to kinda leave this leave this conversation on. Just give it a go because you never know what is possible. Amen to that. If ever ever you wanted to listen to a podcast about possibility or you wanted 2 people that could be more hopeful or optimistic about what the future may hold, often unrealistically so, but we have proven but we have proven out many a time that where where where where people might not feel like it's possible, it really is. And and dreams can come true, that you've got you've got 2 of us in the world because I desperately stand behind. That's how we try to show up. And, Katie was one of the biggest enablers of me just finding myself, especially in a world of work. The the space that she created for me along with Jorg in that environment was was the beginning of something that was truly remarkable for me, and I will be forever grateful.
James Glover [00:48:05]:
So thank you, Katie, not only for coming on the podcast, but for that and everything else on the journey so far.
Katie Mobed [00:48:12]:
Thank you, and thanks thanks thanks for being the inspiration that you are. Like, watching the way you grow, and I know the way you you are with your your kids and your beautiful wife. Like, it's, yeah, it's magical.
So thank you.
James Glover [00:48:23]:
Awesome. Have a wicked day. Massive thank you for taking the time to listen to the excitable soul podcast. If you are interested in uncovering, understanding, and unleashing your sense of purpose, come and explore our purpose immersion programs at the excitable soul dot com. We look forward to hearing from you there or being with you on our next episode. Have an incredible day.